Hunters pets, impersonal obligations

93 Night Elf Hunter
8020
all 3 specs (pets) have roughly the same DPS capabilities. Cunning is more flexible, while Ferocity has some ramp up built into a single target


hmm so essentially cunning & ferocity would both be equally viable PvE specs.
and in PvP? I guess every one would go cunning like intended. seems a bit unfair for ferocity but besides that it could probably solve the problem.
Edited by Farsightrx on 2/25/2013 2:02 AM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
16380
02/15/2013 12:45 PMPosted by Farsightrx
all 3 specs (pets) have roughly the same DPS capabilities. Cunning is more flexible, while Ferocity has some ramp up built into a single target


hmm so essentially cunning & ferocity would both be equally viable PvE specs. what about in PvP?

Well, Cunning can target swap without losing damage. Ferocity has to rebuild its ramp up; however, the ramp up mechanic also plays into some anti-CC defenses for Ferocity.

So, once Ferocity is on the target, it has an easier time staying on the target. Cunning has ADD and will go full bore on whomever you toss him on.

So, depends on what you are doing. Swapping pets mid-fight is less clunky than current, but still takes time. You literally can call a pet out over a current pet, they just don't swap right away.
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93 Night Elf Hunter
8020
Well, Cunning can target swap without losing damage. Ferocity has to rebuild its ramp up; however, the ramp up mechanic also plays into some anti-CC defenses for Ferocity.

So, once Ferocity is on the target, it has an easier time staying on the target. Cunning has ADD and will go full bore on whomever you toss him on.


i think it should be the opposite way.
Cunning; ramp up mechanic, anti-CC defenses for staying on target
Ferocity;ADD, full bore.

And it kind of is this way. So i think the first change of giving each pet spec 2 raid buffs which you selected, and the second change of making both cuning and fero equally viable for PvE, should fix the problem about PvE hunters not being able to bring their favorite pet to the raid.
Edited by Farsightrx on 2/21/2013 1:14 AM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
16380
Target swapping is a strategic choice. Tunnel vision is blind rage, essentially. My thoughts in how that is setup +)

Cunning has a mechanic to "catch up" to a target, it just is more impacted by CC effects, while Ferocity can force its way through them...maybe its better if I stop explaining and just post the whole package +)

Maybe over the weekend...
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93 Night Elf Hunter
8020
Definition of CUNNING
1
: dexterous or crafty in the use of special resources (as skill or knowledge) or in attaining an end
2
: displaying keen insight <a cunning observation>
3
: characterized by wiliness and trickery <cunning schemes>


here was my anology to cunning
1. & 2. anti CC / strategic target switching
3. ramp up damage (except i was instead imagining a more rotational type of damage.)

But now I agree with you, I was confused about the ramp up, and I can see what you meant by tunel vision, and how a gradual ramp up dps mechanic would reflect better on a Ferocity pet.

but im comming to the conclusion that instead of interphering with the current PvP pet spec, they could instead add a 4th pet spec which will fill in this gap for PvE, since this is after all a PvE issue, and use it as a Ferocity counter part to provide the other set of buffs. as for the name of the 4th spec Im digging something around the lines of disciplined, control. obedient.
Edited by Farsightrx on 2/17/2013 7:36 AM PST
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97 Dwarf Hunter
17320
02/15/2013 06:55 AMPosted by Adarant
How would that be any better than we have it now? Under that design, the best pet would be the best pet, regardless of raid size and composition. As it stands now, the best pet for you and your raid team is not the best pet for me and mine. Individually, we do not have a lot of options, on that we agree, but as a class, we have much more variety than the pre-Cata days.

I much rather take a hit of 10 or 20 dps to be able to take the pet I adore the most, rather than just being forced to take a specific pet because of a buff. The way it is now is that we are required to have a specific pet out, even though there are multiple pets that are in that possible category, it still provides us with little to no option.

02/15/2013 06:55 AMPosted by Adarant
In response to the rest of your post, and the OP, even if pet special ability damage was "approximately equal" then it is not identically equal. So long as it's not identically equal, there will always be a best pet that is mandatory and independent of raid group and composition. Is this really what you want to go back to? Is this really better than what we have now?

From blizzards design philosophy, close enough is usually good enough. There really isn't any way to balance two different things to be completely equal in all situations. That is the idea behind class/spec balance. Even if arcane beats out frost spec by 0.5% on a patchwerk fight, blizzard is ok with that because the difference is small enough for groups that aren't min maxers going for world firsts. But with the design now it is not possible to simply ignore the difference in strengths between pets because that difference is so incredibly large, if your raid group is missing mastery then a cat is eons better than a wolf since crit is already provided, it isn't a choice now. Meanwhile if a cat is better than a wolf because over the course of a 10 minute fight they end up dealing about 500 more damage, the difference is much smaller and we get to the very real point where fun and personal choice is more important.


That ability is the thing holding hunters back from being able to bring real raid utility. It is why rogues are getting a raid cooldown in 5.2 and hunters not. Hunters should have real utility, real usefulness to a raid, besides just being handed the trashed shaman utility of being the buff buddy.


Don't know about yours but my hunter, can any buff needed and multiple buffs at times, CC multiple targets, interrupt ( not via pet), remove enrages and buffs, reduce healing affects.

You really upset just cause we don't have a AOE sheild or AOE disspell...

I am upset because we don't have something unique. The things we can do can be done by other classes as well. Misdirection is really about as close as you can get to unique hunter utility and its usefulness is limited and a very similar ability is held by rogues.
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93 Night Elf Hunter
8020
Each Pet can learn one of 5 "roars", choice can be re-chosen via Stable Master only. Each roar applies 2 of the raid buffs to the party. Again, same idea, most raid comps won't be missing both effects, so the hunter is really only providing one. The 5th Roar is Bloodlust.


ok so the stable master can change your pet's type of roar, /!@#$face nods
heres what I'm imagining

Roar of Courage: attack power + spell power
Terrifying Roar: crit + mastery
Distressing Roar: melee, range, spell haste
Invigorating Roar: stat + Stamina

third phase
Each Pet can also learn one of 5 utility moves. These are effects the Hunter cannot provide (obvious example, Horn Toss equivalent). B-Rez is one of these choices.

ok the roars were fine, because they're something more of a concept. But lets say you give a webbing like root to a bird of prey, or horn toss to a porcupine, they wouldn't make logical sense. and I kind of like to be able to associate the pet to it's ability. w/o their skin matching the ability we would be very confused, and it would be kind of like that monk that you keep staring at cause your not sure if he's a rogue. I think this idea would work but I don't think it'll be clean.

also aside from B-Rez, which is never used in PvP, I doubt you will need to use most of these utilities in PvE either. so i doubt this utility section needs to be adressed.
with the Pet spec design and the roars. PvE hunters can focus on choosing the pet they actually like to save Azeroth with.
Edited by Farsightrx on 2/25/2013 2:02 AM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
16380
02/17/2013 08:42 AMPosted by Farsightrx
ok the roars were fine, because they're something more of a concept. But lets say you give a webbing like root to a bird of prey, or horn toss to a porcupine, they wouldn't make logical sense. and I kind of like to be able to associate the pet to it's ability. w/o their skin matching the ability we would be very confused, and it would be kind of like that monk that you keep staring at cause your not sure if he's a rogue. I think this idea would work but I don't think it'll be clean.

If I recall right (going off memory, my notes are on my other PC).

Knockback
Fear (Tremble in place, not run around)
Stun
Intervene ability - i.e soaks a single hit
B-Rez

Nothing like spider webbing, or other anatomical limitations.

Also - freaky close on the roars. Swap Master for Stam (Mastery + Crit, Stam + Stats).

The Utility moves do have a strong bent towards PVP, but each of them will have some use in PVE mechanics. The pet choice is meant to be personal, the move/utility you want is going to be available regardless of pet family.

Also note: Some of the moves your pet learns cannot be auto-cast, and will instead use the hunter's GCD. Basically, it is like your pet is a glyph that teaches you the ability. FOr instance, the B-Rez mechanic won't be limited on your pet's GCD, but you will have to have that pet active (either as primary or during Stampede) in order to use it. Only 5 abilities to choose from, in an effort to limit potential keybinds. All pet abilities that can be set to auto-cast use the pet's GCD.

End Result is, your pet has the following customization:
Specialization (Target Swap, Tunnel Vision, "Tanking") - 2 debuffs based on choice
Buff - 2 effects or Bloodlust
Utility - 1 effect, including BRez
Exotic Ability (BM Only) - Choice of 5 "enhancements"
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93 Night Elf Hunter
8020
MY ANALYSIS to ^^^

I don't agree with how this idea removes the pet's individuality, i don't believe it needs to go that far, so instead of specing the utility, I rather keep choosing the pets depending on their utility. Since choosing a pet for it's utility should have almost no effect on your choice of pet for PvE content. While Your Idea of speccing into the desired buff/debuffs should be enough to tackle this PvE problem. also speccing B-rez on any non magical creature, like a Goat, sounds very out of place. So instead i rather choose a pet that at least seems capable of performing the task. the same goes for knock backs, and fears coming from small cute pets. also your exotic enhancements don't seem finished, so i can't form much of an opinion, but I think I like it so far. Under this I arranged the best of both worlds in 3 phases.

PHASE 1
1 special ability each pet already knows 1 special skill,
(utility Oriented, so no raid-buffs/debuffs as specials.)

------------------------------<>------------------<>----------------<>-----------------------------------------
BEAST MASTERY ENHANCEMENTS
Some Exotic Beasts should have an extra ability, while others should have some kind of enhancement that justifies them as being better. However, I'm not sure how specing for the enhancements entirely works. also note I have an idea for spirit beasts at the bottom


PHASE 2
3 spec choices & 2 debuffs per spec from attacks
Cunning: target swap (PvE/PvP) ----- casting,melee, range slow
Ferocity: Tunnel vision (PvE) --------- physical, spell vulnerability
Tenacity: Tanking ---------------------weakened blows, weakened armor


PHASE 3
1 of 5 Buff choices in form of Roar or screech for non-mammals
(taught by the pet trainer.)
Roar of Courage------------ attack power, spell power
Terrifying Roar--------------- crit + Mastery
Distressing Roar------------ melee,range, spell haste
Invigorating Roar------------ stats+ stam
Inspiring Roar---------------- Hero/bloodlust


MY SPIRIT BEAST iDEA
SPIRIT BEASTS Spirit Mend
(Blizzard should turn spirit beast into simply the exotic skins of an ordinary species, and only tamable by BM, which unlocks this ability on the Spirit Beast. That way the Spirit Beast can also have an according "species special ability".

CORE HOUNDS - N/A --- (Blizzard should work on this pet.)

What would make the other Exotic tames, "Exotic"?

I also found strange that you wanted to give the pet's ability to the hunters as a CD, that would have affected us negatively in pvp. but i see you were just talking about hero/B-rez which is fine.
Edited by Farsightrx on 2/25/2013 2:07 AM PST
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90 Human Mage
8630
OP makes a good point. Pets should be more to a hunter than a buff. You should be able to spec for the buff provided with a one hour cd.
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100 Troll Hunter
16380
his will affect us in pvp negatively, it will also lower out DpS by having to waist a second ordering the pet to use a special , 2 sec stun for example, I don't think we should be restricted from commanding out pets while we are shooting, they are 2 unrelated actions that don't interphere with each other. I think you could instead call the pet off then cast B-rez to solve that issue, unless there's more to it.

The ability are effectively becoming hunter abilities. This is to partially avoid the hassle of sneaking a GCD in between pet auto-casts for abilities that Blizz doesn't typically leave off the GCD, and to partially address how watered down some abilities can be simply because you can swap to a 2nd pet and double up on it.

It basically is turning the abilities into something akin to Intimidation, except if Intimidation had a Focus cost, it would be Pet Focus. These abilities are not meant to be "bonus" utility. We have a specific set of utility that is attached to the hunter directly, and we can pick a 5th utility move via our pet (technically, we can pick 5 5ths, and depending on the choice, that pick is either an Auto-Cast pet ability (which can still be disabled and used manually if preferred), or a "Intimidate" style ability). During Stampede, all will be available, but depending on CD, you would get only 1 or two uses every CD.
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93 Night Elf Hunter
8020
I get you i was thinking you wanted to put GCD on the hunter for all the pet abilities including the ones you can auto cast, i miss read it. but for as long as its for B-rez/hero then it sounds good.
Edited by Farsightrx on 2/20/2013 4:49 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
3795
I use humar the pride-lord (black lion) and sian-rotam (white lion) all the time, renamed them yin and yang, and if someone don't like it or someone says they aren't good for the raid, tough, deal with it, i love em, and they're what i'm using, yeah it would be cool if we could pick what specific skills they could learn, like teaching your puppy how to shake or sit, only in this case on teaching them how to whoop !@# in certain ways, but till such a miracle happens ima keep usin my 2 fave pets, regardless of what raiders think ^^
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90 Draenei Hunter
14770
02/14/2013 09:17 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
Obviously it could and would hold more variation than that. Pets are not varied, sure 3 pets supply crit, but then the options are still diminished. A quillen is the obvious choice in PvE because it also has a battle rez, compared to a wolf who has no exotic ability and a devilsaur who only provides a healing debuff that has only niche uses, an instant battle rez will come in far more handy and could save a raid if the death knight is low on RP or the druid is the one that died.


But that is not the case... right now every single raid group may have different roster so there is no single hunter top pet but it depends on each of our raid groups. My raid group has 2 druids & a DK. The odds of me ever having to brez r so low that it just is not needed for me to bring my quilen. My raid group actually has every buff/debuff covered & I only need to bring a specific pet if someone doesn't show up. Like our priest is away so I have been bringing the sporebat.

02/15/2013 06:57 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
I much rather take a hit of 10 or 20 dps to be able to take the pet I adore the most, rather than just being forced to take a specific pet because of a buff. The way it is now is that we are required to have a specific pet out, even though there are multiple pets that are in that possible category, it still provides us with little to no option.


i find this statement absurd. Currently there is ZERO forcing of all hunters to bring a specific pet. But your raid team is making you bring a specific pet. But you would be fine with screwing all other hunters into bringing the highest dps pet so you can not care? If your raid team is so caring about having every buff covered I doubt they would be fine with you bringing a lower dps pet?

My raid team would force me to bring the highest dps pet. Even more so when we are working on progression fights.

I think it is all in how you approach it. Are you carrying a solo 'all about me" mentality or are you looking at it as being part of the team?

Go solo, quest, do heroics & lfr with any cute pet you want. But when you raid you should try to do what is best for the group.

I am not specifically against removing all buffs from pets and letting us spec them. But I do not think it will ever happen. They have always pushed for the idea of having some differences. It would make all pets completely the same besides a look. Which would remove any uniqueness to your pets.
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100 Troll Hunter
16380
02/20/2013 01:40 PMPosted by Isaboo
am not specifically against removing all buffs from pets and letting us spec them. But I do not think it will ever happen. They have always pushed for the idea of having some differences. It would make all pets completely the same besides a look. Which would remove any uniqueness to your pets.

Or actually encourage varied skin use, since right now, you'll never see a monkey in the majority of raiding, nor will you ever see a wolf in the majority of PVP.

Making the abilities common throughout all pets (but limited in choice), simply means the skin doesn't matter
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93 Night Elf Hunter
8020
I am not specifically against removing all buffs from pets and letting us spec them. But I do not think it will ever happen.
the buffs don't really have any valueble connection to the pets, they change them around themselves, i remmber cats used to give strength and agility, now they give out mastery, and all spirit beasts reguardless of appearance give out the same buff. so being able to spec into the buffs shouldn't ruin any sort of design, as long as they dress it nicely.

They have always pushed for the idea of having some differences. It would make all pets completely the same besides a look. Which would remove any uniqueness to your pets.

I think they can maintain their uniqueness. For as long as they simply allow you to choose your pet's BUFF, & DEBUFF, in addition to their SPECs, but keep allowing you to choose your utility depending on the pet type. Since It's really the buffs and debuffs hunters are feeling forced on.
Edited by Farsightrx on 2/23/2013 6:00 AM PST
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