normal mode raid tuning

90 Blood Elf Paladin
8720
Hey hey, saw this thread on EU forums and thought it deserved one here

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6636294319

I also had similar issues in guild with Garalon. I think that, if you're a guild that has to depend on new or returning raiders who probably represent the overwhelming mid-percentile of wow raiders, having such a hard enrage timer is ridiculous. We got the encounter to the enrage timer half a dozen times before having to give up because we just couldn't recruit people with high enough numbers. These guys could still do the mechanics, but it was just too tight of a numbers race for them.

Not sure why such a tight numbers race couldn't just be reserved for heroic modes. It seems to me that if you can execute the mechanics and the mechanics are tuned so that they can actually kill you -- then why not reward that on normal mode and say "OK, well if you want to do it on heroic, you have to have insane DPS on top of that".

So basically, I think here's how the 3 raid modes should be:

1. LFR - Totally faceroll easy of course, this is just a gear farm thing. Maybe even remove trash to make it go faster each week so we have more time for normal modes.

2. Normal modes - Mechanics matter, you will die if you don't execute correctly, but fairly relaxed enrages / no enrages because normal modes don't matter anyway in the "progression race", so who cares if someone can 5 man it over the course of 40 minutes, who would want to do that anyway?

3. Heroic modes - Heroic modes should pretty much be unchanged from the way they are now. No changes necessary, it's pain for the best loot available .
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90 Tauren Druid
9425
LFR is there for when you don't want to wipe.

Normal and Heroic should have possible failure.

If you want to tie enrages to "progression race", then they should only have an enrage timer up until either a World First, Realm First, or Realm-Faction First ... because at that point, the race is over.
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90 Worgen Druid
16615

2. Normal modes - Mechanics matter, you will die if you don't execute correctly, but fairly relaxed enrages / no enrages because normal modes don't matter anyway in the "progression race", so who cares if someone can 5 man it over the course of 40 minutes, who would want to do that anyway?


Failure to execute a proper rotation should result in a wipe (enrage timer).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8720
Yeah well, that's the point -- most wow players at this time can't do the damage numbers required to get garalon down, so the guilds either server transfer or the members quit, or both -- usually both I think.

It's not like you can just kick people and magically recruit a better player -- the better player pool is already dried up on a lot of servers .
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8720
I mean just check this out: http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/black-dragonflight

there are 12 documented guilds who have killed 2/6 in heart of fear but haven't been able to take down garalon, and 17 guilds who have killed at least once boss in HOF and couldn't progress. All the other guilds with more progress and currently sucking up most of the decent players on the server.

So what were we to do? Server transfer? Maybe, but the problem with that is .. basically it's like rolling dice: maybe we end up on a server with decent players but not many guilds who have already progressed further, maybe that server is just as bad, maybe we go to a server with a ridiculous horde population and can't make a foothold there either because of the same issue on BDF -- too many established guilds farming the stuff.

At this point it seems that in WoW, forming a new guild is pretty much not an option because the content is so hard for anybody but those in a long-established raiding guild, that the long-established raiding guilds are just automatically getting anyone at their skill level, leaving the newly formed guilds to languish with an endless supply of newbies.
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90 Worgen Druid
16615
That is an issue with the realms, not with the bosses.

If people are failing to do basic DPS rotations to kill normal mode bosses then there are much larger problems than the boss' enrage timer.

If kids are all failing their tests because they do not know how to read the questions you wouldn't remove reading as a requirement, you would figure out why they can't read. A DPS rotation is one of the most basic parts of the game. Failing to play your class is serious issue and letting normal modes allow people to complete them without any knowledge of their class that would be awful for the game.
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90 Draenei Priest
17345
There are a plethora of guilds looking for players in the recruitment forums. If you want a more progressive guild you can find one that way and not "roll the dice".

There is no reason to tune Normal Modes to the point the are today's LFR just because you're on a bad server.

Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding your issue.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8720
There are a plethora of guilds looking for players in the recruitment forums. If you want a more progressive guild you can find one that way and not "roll the dice".

There is no reason to tune Normal Modes to the point the are today's LFR just because you're on a bad server.

Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding your issue.


Well that's the point -- if you want to start a new guild.. especially one that just raids about 5-6 hours a week (as we do) then you pretty much have to roll the dice with random recruits. Good luck using the guild recruitment forums for that..

To be more precise: Wow raiding has turned into "I will join hardcore guild X if I want to clear the current raid tier on time, then quit after it's cleared, then repeat for the next patch,expansion, whatever"

The only way to combat that is to make the normal modes easier on the DPS requirement side so that you give players of lesser skill some incentive to keep working on their game (being able to clear heroic modes), but you still make it challenging enough so it's not LFR by making the boss mechanics kill you outright if you mess them up

I'm not suggesting turning normal modes into LFR, so all you trolls who type that can just go home to your bridge
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8720
That is an issue with the realms, not with the bosses.

If people are failing to do basic DPS rotations to kill normal mode bosses then there are much larger problems than the boss' enrage timer. .


Well the point is this, on a boss like Garalon you have to basically be a total master of your class to kill it none of the other bosses in T14 are like that. If you miss a few GCDs while kiting the stupid boss, then forget it -- you'll never kill the thing regardless of how well you've dropped the puddles or how precisely you've timed taking the pheromones from the previous guy. It's completely insane. Most returning or new or more casual wow players just can't have that level of uber concentration from what I've seen.

It seems like something with basically no margin for error at all -- 0% -- should be the hardest content in the game, i.e. heroic modes. Instead, what we're seeing here is Garalon being a major ballbreaker of a boss -- so bad that if you can kill it on normal mode you are guaranteed to be able to kill it on heroic mode.

I was basically told by several people in the top tier guilds on the server that heroic garalon is one of the easiest heroics, and normal garalon is the hardest normal. So WTF? Why punish mediocre players soooo hard that they just quit the game? The content should inspire people to _incrementally_ improve their game instead of just throwing up this huge freaking brick wall like a middle finger wagging between the boss' legs in the wind.
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Eh, i think normals should have enrages but I do think that with the current server climate (which I don't think the devs predicted) that Garalon's timer is a smidge tight. I think he'd have been better with about 30 more seconds on it but /shrug too late now bug juice under the bridge.

Just like elegon's little powerballs could have moved just a smidge slower, at this point Garalon isn't really an issue, stone dogs then elegon was the bottlenecks that really broke the slow progression servers, elegon especially drove the "move servers to try to progress" mentality to insane proportions. By the time HoF was added guilds on those servers were already light years behind from not having farmed mv out the way better guilds and better servers had and made a gear gap that nothing was going to fix...not that blizz tried to fix it (I'm sure they were enjoying the transfer fees WAY too much to do so).
Edited by Feyranna on 2/18/2013 3:01 PM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
17225


Well the point is this, on a boss like Garalon you have to basically be a total master of your class to kill it none of the other bosses in T14 are like that. If you miss a few GCDs while kiting the stupid boss, then forget it -- you'll never kill the thing regardless of how well you've dropped the puddles or how precisely you've timed taking the pheromones from the previous guy. It's completely insane. Most returning or new or more casual wow players just can't have that level of uber concentration from what I've seen.


There is no way to execute the fight 'perfectly' if most of your raid can't DPS. That by definition means the fight is flawed. Find ways to optimize your damage.


It seems like something with basically no margin for error at all -- 0% -- should be the hardest content in the game, i.e. heroic modes. Instead, what we're seeing here is Garalon being a major ballbreaker of a boss -- so bad that if you can kill it on normal mode you are guaranteed to be able to kill it on heroic mode.


Except this is false. We got Garalon normal some time in November, using the gear available back then. We only took a night to down him, so less than 10 attempts total. We downed heroic Garalon just two weeks ago, after full clearing heroic MSV and obtaining the gear available from there. We had no less than 10 sub 5% wipes on heroic Garalon. The heroic version has a much, MUCH tighter enrage timer.


I was basically told by several people in the top tier guilds on the server that heroic garalon is one of the easiest heroics, and normal garalon is the hardest normal. So WTF? Why punish mediocre players soooo hard that they just quit the game? The content should inspire people to _incrementally_ improve their game instead of just throwing up this huge freaking brick wall like a middle finger wagging between the boss' legs in the wind.


DPS checks have always existed, and they are there because they are hard. On normal mode the 'mechanics' are exceptionally easy. You only need to have four people to do the pheromones, so over half of the raid don't even have to care about it other than not stand in the puddles. If you are still having DPS issues... look at logs and chew the low DPS out. If there is no obvious room for improvement there, try to do a different strat... like having one of your plate tanks go DPS and just DPS the boss in defensive stance/blood presence/whatever pallies have. If that still doesn't work, try 2-healing it.

If other guilds can do the boss, then so can you. Figure it out rather than ask for hand-outs.
Edited by Elgunaz on 2/18/2013 3:01 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
13615
I picture Elegon walking off his shift, punching out his timecard, while Garalon punches in and sits down at his desk with the nameplate, "C**kblock".
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90 Draenei Priest
17540
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a complete @ss, but how is Garalon the hardest normal mode encounter in T14?

2 "tanks"
3 healers
5 DPS

Of that make-up, 2 ranged dps and 2 healers act as kiters.

Stand in the blue circles, kill the legs. Use cooldowns during pheromone transitions. "Tanks" (in dps gear and sometimes dps spec depending on class) stay in front of the boss while he walks around. Communicate with each other and stay out of the purple circle. There's plenty of room for error; our mage has blinked under him causing a crush, our rogue has popped killing spree and landed under him multiple times, our kiters haven't moved fast enough keeping their pheromones, and none of these things caused a wipe.

I realize that's not your point. But why should any encounter which requires people to have at least a basic knowledge of what their class can do be tuned down to allow players who refuse to learn an easier kill? Raiders have standards. If your group doesn't, it's not the boss's fault or the raid instance's fault, or even Blizzard's fault. Basic raiding standards are pretty universal; gem, enchant, and reforge your gear, come to raids prepared with pots, flasks, food buffs, and repair money, understand the fundamentals of your class, and have at least a modicum of knowledge regarding any fights you'll be attempting that night. Anything LESS than this, and you aren't "raiders." Raiding requires knowledge about and commitment to yourself, your character, and your team. If you're raiding with people who don't possess any of these qualities, then it's time to find a group that does. Asking or suggesting that normal modes be tuned down is, quite frankly, a sign of laziness.
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90 Draenei Priest
17345
[quote]Well that's the point -- if you want to start a new guild.. especially one that just raids about 5-6 hours a week (as we do) then you pretty much have to roll the dice with random recruits. Good luck using the guild recruitment forums for that..


We are a guild that raids only 6 hours a week. We have no problem recruiting from the Recruitment Forums on this website. It is almost exclusively how we recruit.

We've recruited this way for over 4 years and have filled 2 raid teams this way. Our server is Med-Pop with about average progression.

I'm still not seeing your issue.

And, you are kind of implying that Normal Modes should be "LFR-like" in difficulty.

The fact of the matter is that once the World-First, Realm-First, Faction-First achievements are completed the "race" is technically over. From there "progression" is self/guild satisfying. Sure it's great to look on WoWProgress or GuildOx and see your Guild's name near the top (or at the top) of the server's guild list but these things are more for "self-gratification" than anything else.

Normal Modes don't need to be so easy everyone can do them. That is what LFR is there for.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
12750
Indeed, Garalon is impossible with one too many players who can't perform at a certain level.

Remember, though, that in every designer is a Comic Book Guy glaring at you from behind a dungeon master's screen. Adventure games need mystique, and part of that comes from "forbidden" places through which players can't easily pass. LFR is several notches below in difficulty, and it's either tolerated or held in contempt, and not really considered a full experience. Blizzard's got to balance somewhere.

My experience this tier has been favorable — tuning matched up quite well to my guild, which runs 25-mans with skill levels varying between hard-mode caliber and moderately under-performing players. It's hard to say whether Blizzard wants more players in normal modes now that LFR allows virtually anyone to raid; perhaps a better arrangement would be easier, lesser-reward 10-man encounters, but that kind of change will take some doing.
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Oh come on, let's not exaggerate that much. Nobody has asked for normal to be the same as lfr. In fact the OP specifically states that the mechanics should all be there and the focus on getting the mechanics, something that I agree with, even if I don't agree with a total removal of enrages.

You can have plenty of dps and still have fools standing in the cleaves or walking under the boss, those things shouldn't get a kill...but the fact is if you have the gear it's easier to kill him with some unplanned crushes than it is with a flawlessly executed pull where the dps just don't quite have the numbers yet...YES even with them properly handling the leg ring buff. That is the issue with Garalon imo. When your server sucks bad enough that you can't field the same group every week that becomes an even bigger problem, and good freaking luck to those guilds on those servers using the recruitment channel...believe me they've tried.
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17 Draenei Shaman
0
I am in a guild that is techically only 3/6 MV o.o but 5 of us are 6/6 and 1/6 working on 2/6 hof (Im 2/2 HoF due to being in another guild run). I have seen garalon twice with another guild - I do not want it 'changes". If other guilds can do it THEN I CAN DO IT - and no way in hell am I going to wave that white flag of surrender. I never say it must be mechanics or unfair or whatever when other guilds have done it. As for the 'seemingly' lack of guilds who got him down. I know my guild and my sister guild is due to lack of raiders! Nothing about not making progress. When we pug we can get terrible players. We didnt raid for a month as we couldnt even get 5 people together so we waited a month for the RL schedule change(whihc we belive was going tobe more benefical for everyone) and 5 of us went out and pug. A lack of progress is not about mnechanics but if the guild has even a consistent team. I know on my server we have to many wanna be raiding guilds that are making little progession simply because of lack of riaders NOT becuase of mechanics.
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A raid isn't composed only of dps. If you removal enrages so that you can have terrible dps drag out an encounter, then you're relying on your healers to be skilled at playing their class.

So in essence you want to shift the burden from your dps to your healers, and have the healers carry the raid. If I was a healer in a group like that, I would be pretty unhappy about being required to carry terrible dps.

In a raid team you want everybody pulling their weight. That's why there are healing intensive-fights, fights with enrage timers, and fights with tank swapping/dancing/etc. Everybody needs have their mettle tested once in a while to make sure they're not slacking.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
02/19/2013 08:05 PMPosted by Delatt
So in essence you want to shift the burden from your dps to your healers, and have the healers carry the raid. If I was a healer in a group like that, I would be pretty unhappy about being required to carry terrible dps.


In many ways, the burden is always on the healers. Healers are generally the grease between the wheels that smooth out the mistakes. I guess what I'm saying is that they do that naturally now. I don't agree with the idea of removing dps checks, but I still wanted to make the observation.
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