5.2 and Ret "Seal Twisting"

90 Blood Elf Paladin
9085
So. I finally got a chance a few minutes ago to jump on the PTR and give the new Seal of Justice a try. And I gotta say...I'm a little concerned with my findings.

First: I don't see a very large increase in the damage Templar's Verdict is doing with a 5 stack of Justice. It should be a 25% increase to the damage, but I'm just not seeing it when beating on a test dummy. Maybe I'm incorrect, or maybe it's bugged, I'm not sure. It is definitely increasing the damage, there's absolutely no doubt there, but it didn't appear to be 25% more.

Second: It appears to be (in my gear, not even remotely BiS stuff) about a 2-3k dps increase to continuously swap between Seal of Truth and Seal of Justice. This is something I believe Blizzard wanted to avoid, and honestly, it's not something I want to have to do throughout a fight. Yes, it's easy to do, but no, I don't want to have to throw those swaps in over...and over..and over.

Third: I was hoping for something a little more. This was supposed to help Ret more in PvP to give us a bigger hit, one that hopefully can compete with the numbers that get thrown out by other classes and specs constantly. Again though..the damage just doesn't seem to be what it was touted to be.

Hopefully I'm wrong. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong, but I was really excited about some of the changes to Ret. Now...they're starting to feel really lackluster.

Edit: After further testing, I retract my concerns about the new Seal of Justice. I definitely read the tooltip wrong, and have seen that it does indeed to perfectly fine damage.
Edited by Kurovind on 2/14/2013 10:17 PM PST
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
Stop misreading the tool tip. It does not increase the damage of Templar's Verdict. It adds an attack called Justice that hits for 125% weapon damage as Holy. I've had it crit for 97k(Cool downs popped, in PvP gear). Our damage in PvP will be fine.

As for seal twisting possibly being a 2-3k(very very minor) increase...so what?
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90 Undead Warlock
13800
I like that idea that for extra work (and risk) you can gain a small bit more DPS. It rewards higher levels of play, and provides a way for players to Master something new after getting the basic rotation down.

I also like that you could just stay in 1 seal and do just fine. The basic ret rotation is quite simple, so it is a prime candidate for something like this.
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90 Human Paladin
10720
02/13/2013 10:20 PMPosted by Celli
Stop misreading the tool tip. It does not increase the damage of Templar's Verdict. It adds an attack called Justice that hits for 125% weapon damage as Holy. I've had it crit for 97k(Cool downs popped, in PvP gear). Our damage in PvP will be fine.


I actually did misread the tooltip, and didn't realize it was adding in an extra attack. That would explain the difference, and I wasn't paying attention to whether or not it was registering in Recount when I was testing it. If that's the case (I'll check it out later to be sure), then I feel a lot better about the situation.

I won't argue that 2-3k is a pretty minor increase, but it's an increase none the less, and could possibly be even more than that. That increase was just what I was noticing from the brief testing I did last night. I don't mind, overall, that I might have to seal twist, or stance dance, or whatever it is you want to call it, but it really did start to get kind of tiring after a while. It's "new and different" for sure, in that it hasn't had to be done for quite some time, but still something I'm not sure I want to deal with. If it stays to be only a very small increase, then yea, I can just be lazy when I feel like it and not worry with it. If it turns out to be a significant increase, then it'll be mandatory.
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90 Human Paladin
12855
I like that idea that for extra work (and risk) you can gain a small bit more DPS. It rewards higher levels of play, and provides a way for players to Master something new after getting the basic rotation down.

I also like that you could just stay in 1 seal and do just fine. The basic ret rotation is quite simple, so it is a prime candidate for something like this.


Knock it off with "ret rotation is quite simple" crap. All rotations are quite simple.

Requiring 2 GCD's for 1 attack is just poor design, plain and simple. It was not fun at all back in TBC when the horde could do it with Command and Blood. It isn't fun now. It's a bad mechanic. You don't need to look any further than Arcane mages having their "scorch weaving" removed. It's a bad mechanic. GC shows naivety by thinking it's something fun or interesting. If ret paladins could do decent DPS in the first place, this change would not even be talked about. And if it was in the game, it would be removed because it would be unintended use of game mechanics, just like scorch weaving.

This is history repeating itself. It was taken out of the game for a reason. It was a terrible terrible mechanic.
Edited by Lawbringer on 2/14/2013 8:16 AM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
12695
I have confidence that Blizzard will make a change to avoid seal twisting if it actually becomes a thing. Maybe next expansion they might play with reworking the system so twisting can be done gracefully but for now something as simple as a cool down on seals would fix it.
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90 Undead Warlock
13800
I like that idea that for extra work (and risk) you can gain a small bit more DPS. It rewards higher levels of play, and provides a way for players to Master something new after getting the basic rotation down.

I also like that you could just stay in 1 seal and do just fine. The basic ret rotation is quite simple, so it is a prime candidate for something like this.


Knock it off with "ret rotation is quite simple" crap. All rotations are quite simple.



Different DPS spec's rotations have varying degrees of difficulty, skill caps, and skills floors. That is the reality of it.
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90 Human Paladin
10720
02/14/2013 10:42 AMPosted by Methalos
Different DPS spec's rotations have varying degrees of difficulty, skill caps, and skills floors. That is the reality of it.


This is true enough, but there are a good number of classes/specs now that don't require a whole lot of skill to do well. That being said, I still have something like 25-30 keybinds I use on a regular basis on this guy for varying things (primarily PvP, but I use many of the abilities in PvE as well for a lot of situations), and I don't really want to add anymore to that list. Having to change seals constantly means I'll have to either add in the extra keybind(s) required for them, or just click them every 20-30 seconds. Neither of which I want to have to deal with at this point. I'll do it, if it becomes a necessity, but I'm hoping it doesn't come to that point. I know Blizzard doesn't intend for it to happen either, which means about the time I get used to doing it, they'll change it and make it non viable.
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90 Human Paladin
12855


Knock it off with "ret rotation is quite simple" crap. All rotations are quite simple.



Different DPS spec's rotations have varying degrees of difficulty, skill caps, and skills floors. That is the reality of it.


Players have varying degrees of ability to press buttons. No rotation relies on any kind of stochastic modelling of 100 variables. Destruction takes 9 buttons. Ret presses 10. Download Need to Know if you think keeping an 18 second debuff up is challenging.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15065
I personally would love to see seal twisting come back. It adds a higher skill cap for rets that are capable/want to really push their dps. But then again I would also love to see a 3 HP finisher that was a dot that we had to weave in with Inquisition and TV, but that's just me.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
0
I kinda wished they did more with how seals originally worked way, way back in the distant past when the game was still new. I always liked judging to release the glyph's energy. I wish that system was fleshed out and smoothed instead of throw up a seal and forget. So much wasted potential.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15525
We are losing the baseline snare we wanted for years and that should be a basic part of any melee kit. In return we are getting a new buff that could be fun but will just get nerfed if it is significantly powerful. Just wait until someone gets destroyed by a lucky crit with it while popping cds and using berserk, and see the tears on the forums.

Losing the snare sucks. The new buff is shiny right now, but buffs come and go. Next expansion we will get reworked anyway, and I'd like to have that happen with the assumption in place that we deserve a snare just like every...other...melee...spec.

Do they remove our interrupt next? Remember how long they told us ret didn't really need one?

Those who are willing to give up the snare for this TV buff are being very shortsighted, in my opinion.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15525
But since this is obviously a fait accompli, at least we now have the ability to blacklist SotA.
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90 Human Paladin
8795
So basically lolret remains lolret. Sweet.

Any of the mage buffs get reverted? J/k, will never happen lol.
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90 Human Paladin
14125
If you hate the new Seal of Justice, then don't worry about it. Seems Ghostcrawler is already wanting to revert it back, but with a small buff. Personally I like the new Seal, and think they should keep it, but also the old Seal of Justice. Maybe call the new one Seal of Command? More choices for Ret Paladins!

Ghostcrawler:
Paladin
- We're worried that we're not going to be able to get the new Seal of Justice on PTR in a good place. We still like the goal of giving Ret more damage outside of their long cooldowns, but Censure just brings a lot of benefits that are going to be hard to reproduce in any kind of "build up to burst" mechanic. When faced with decisions like these where the new design isn't a clear win, we think the right decision is to revert the change. It's possible we could buff Seal of Justice (the 5.1 version) to 20% damage from 16% damage, but overall it would still probably not get much use in PvP.
- However, we haven't given up on the idea of solving Ret's problems of long cooldowns. We are going to try changing the 4pc PvP set bonus to lowering the cooldown on Avenging Wrath by 1 min. This is a set bonus that has worked out pretty well in PvE and would help Ret keep up pressure more frequently without getting to the point of one-shot abilities.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15525
I really like the current 4 piece, but I also like more Avenging Wrath. I'm conflicted.
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