Garalon, Enrage Timers, Raid Leading.

100 Draenei Shaman
17110
For a family friendly 25 man guild, Garalon is pretty rough. My opinion is that you should be able to run with 7 healers, have decent dps and still beat the enrage timer with 15-30 seconds. This is with appropriate gear for the content (a few clears of WotE in addition to a couple clears through Blademaster. Currently, it requires fewer healers and a fairly strict enrage timer even with those fewer healers.

Basically, lower health or damage by about 5-10%. The 5.2 changes should make this easysauce.
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90 Night Elf Monk
11460
Enrage timers give raiders a sense of urgency. As mentioned above, if there were no enrage timers, raids would just bring a ton of healers and a handful of DPS and spend half an hour killing a boss, which trivializes encounters. If you didn't have a timer hanging above your head, you wouldn't be motivated to play your class efficiently and there wouldn't be any pride in downing a boss because the qualifying factor would be "can everyone stay awake for 20 more minutes?".

Besides, I think most people love the way the blood starts pumping fast when you're seconds away from berserk and you get your first kill.


We got along just fine before when every single boss didn't have an enrage timer, everyone didn't stack healers like crazy. They just sorta went with what was comfortable.
I'm pretty sure spending half an hour on one boss would be a pretty big deterrent for most people, nobody would want to turn Garalon into a snoozefest just so everyone could stay above 90% the entire time.
On something like Garalon or Elegon there should have been a choice between slow and steady or fast and dangerous, i'm not saying remove the enrage timer completely. It's not like we have 5 extra healers sitting around anyway.
Edited by Zenway on 2/14/2013 1:23 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
12455
I don't think hard enrage timers make for very compelling game play below heroic-level raiding.

Soft enrages are far more interesting, both because they can allow flexibility on how to beat an encounter (better numbers or better mechanics) and because I find it far more exciting to race against a mechanic than a stopwatch.

I also don't really have a big issue with normal mode raids having slightly unbalanced rosters. Would it really be such a nightmare for the game if it was possible to 4-heal Garalon on normal mode? I don't think it would be very exciting personally, but if that is what you had to work with, what's the big deal?

Besides, as noted above, I'm not sure your average guild is typically faced with a glut of people just dying to heal.
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90 Troll Death Knight
11995
Remember that raiding was viewed much differently. You didn't have the level of competition you do now at all levels of raiding.

Almost any level of guild would do bosses the easy and slow way if possible. 1 shot it taking 30 minutes with no danger or wipe 50 times over days?

And it's fun trying to figure out ways to push the last limits of dps. Much more fun than waiting the obligatory number of wipes on amber shaper to people learning the construct.

Even when we were progressing on it I loved the fight. No RNG. Not like Blade Lord where after unseen strike he may go 1 shot people. Everyone is personally responsibly. All dps and tanks have to do 110% dps, healers have a tough job, kiters have to kite.
Edited by Chïrpa on 2/14/2013 1:50 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Warrior
18035
We were stuck on Garalon for ~50 wipes. That was ~10 hours of attempts which was three weeks raiding, for my guild.

Without an enrage we would have beaten him on the 10th attempt and he would be a free loot boss.

With the enrage his death brought a passionate emotional outburst and as a young guild bringing down Garalon (and sticking together through weeks of stalled progression) really brought us together.

It turns out that we were doing the legs like idiots, of course. Once I read a leg / dps timing strategy on these forums we started downing him with 2 minutes to spare. Oops.

Enrages are important components to a fight. Without one we certainly would run 4 heals on every encounter. Why wouldn't you?
Edited by Fitsi on 2/14/2013 1:42 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
12455
02/14/2013 01:39 PMPosted by Chïrpa
Remember that raiding was viewed much differently. You didn't have the level of competition you do now at all levels of raiding.

I suspect people who view raiding as a competition vastly underestimate the number of people who don't. For a lot of folks, the only "competition" is against the boss.

02/14/2013 01:39 PMPosted by Chïrpa
Almost any level of guild would do bosses the easy and slow way if possible. 1 shot it taking 30 minutes with no danger or wipe 50 times over days?

I actually disagree with this. Who in their right mind would spend 30 minutes on a boss if they could kill it faster? Do you really think a guild would *choose* to do 3 hours clears of HoF by bringing 6 healers? I can't picture that, but I suppose we're all just guessing.

I don't think enrages should be eliminated, but I think "soft" mechanics are much better on a variety of levels.
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90 Human Death Knight
12455
02/14/2013 01:40 PMPosted by Fitsi
Enrages are important components to a fight.

I think they have a place, for sure. But let's look at Garalon for an example of how you could do better:

Right now, at exactly 7 minutes, he flies up into the air and kills everyone with an "insta-kill" ability. Game over, end of story, do more deeps next time kthx.

What if, instead, at 6 minutes, the pheremone trail started getting progressively wider? Or his legs stopped breaking? Or he got a progressive speed buff? Or if the pungency debuff didn't drop off any more? Or . . . well, you get the idea.

There are a ton of ways to say "if you haven't done it yet, you are going to be punished - and the longer you take, the worse the beating." It is very effective, but far more interesting than a "DING! YOU LOSE!"

For example, I really liked the Dreamweaver soft enrage - the longer you took, the more adds came, until it was comically overwhelming. At the same time, yes, there were probably guilds that were good enough at handling add that they lasted longer "than intended." I think that's probably good -

I don't think Dreamweaver becomes a better encounter if you replace the "death by adds" soft enrage with a hard stop at 7:04 into the encounter. If fact, I think it becomes a worse one.
Edited by Waste on 2/14/2013 1:58 PM PST
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100 Goblin Priest
9225
Do you really think a guild would *choose* to do 3 hours clears of HoF by bringing 6 healers? I can't picture that, but I suppose we're all just guessing.


Absolutely. If something is possible, someone somewhere will try it. Also, I really don't think blizzard should decrease the need for dps. There's a massive surplus of dps players, we don't want people 2 tanking and 6 healing fights.
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90 Troll Death Knight
11995
While we aren't that great, we certainly are acutely aware of how many bosses we get down depends on what recruits we can get and if people will stick around. If we aren't meeting goals, people are more likely to leave and quality of recruits decreases. Any guild of any level, outside of 10m family/friend guilds, who doesn't think their progression effects what recruits they get or if people will stick around or not is deluding themselves.

Is it 30 minutes for a kill or 3 hour raid night wiping? Who in their right mind wouldn't down the boss as fast as possible?

I will agree soft enrages are more interesting. Stacking damage buffs on the boss are more interesting than an insta wipe. But I think sometimes its hard to get the right mechanics to justify a stacking damage buff. I don't see, with how the fight is made, Garalon can have anything except an insta wipe. Elegon would've been more interesting if there was no insta wipe but you were forced to stay inside entire final phase (I think some guilds go out and in of that energy floor right?). I could've seen them do something different for Gara'jal's insta wipe as well. Don't know what though.

The one problem with non-insta wipes for dps checks is you run into favoring, massively, one comp over another for example. Or being able to last longer past the enrage timer than intended. With the endlessly-stacking pugnenancy debuff for example, its possible there's some classes who could cheese that. All to just basically make an essentially hard enrage without it just coming out and killing you.
Edited by Chïrpa on 2/14/2013 2:07 PM PST
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
02/14/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Zenway
We got along just fine before when every single boss didn't have an enrage timer, everyone didn't stack healers like crazy. They just sorta went with what was comfortable.


Someone didnt run mc with 14 healers

I mean, every fight has a healing requirement, even with 100% avoidable damage, you still have unavoidable damage that healers have to heal through.

Why should healers have a required amount of healing when DPS wouldn't?

Anyways, garalon 10 is designed for 3 heals, the pugs I run with use 3 for safety, and we still satisfy the enrage, if you're having trouble drop to 2 healers. If you can't win with 2 heals, but cant meet the enrage with 5(6 if you do the dps tank thing), then you need to simply improve throughput by gear or practice.

I'm just picturing a boss like Bladelord stacking intensity, and getting to the triple digits, and 6 healers still healing through, I actually remember doing MC with over a dozen healers as MC had no real enrage timers, BWL was when it started being a big deal.

02/14/2013 02:00 PMPosted by Chïrpa
I could've seen them do something different for Gara'jal's insta wipe as well. Don't know what though.


He was designed as (Week 1 of heroic 25) one of the tightest DPS checks in the game, removing the DPS check on a DPS check would make it a long boring patchwerk.

I think the only time I've questioned the design of a bosses enrage in this game was 25h Baelroc pre-nerf, where you were supposed to survive 30s past enrage, even world first guilds on their 2nd and 3rd kills were going into that phase.
Edited by Postonforums on 2/14/2013 2:07 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Warrior
18035
There are;
Fights with soft enrage like lei shi and amber shaper
Fights with no enrage (or just no realistic one) like emp or empress
Fights with hard enrages like Garalon or Gara in MV

Variety is a large part of what makes a raid tier fun, for me.

We wiped due to enrage on every boss where the enrage is an issue. We over came them all in time. So can you.
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90 Human Death Knight
12455
02/14/2013 02:00 PMPosted by Postonforums
He was designed as (Week 1 of heroic 25) one of the tightest DPS checks in the game, removing the DPS check on a DPS check would make it a long boring patchwerk.

I think hard enrages make a lot of sense for heroic modes, for just that reason.

I think soft enrages are better for normal modes, where you simply are dealing with a lower-skill player base.

I do agree that "no enrage of any kind" is a bad idea. Even if you could kill a boss over the course of 30 minutes, that's nothing you really want to encourage.
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90 Human Death Knight
13655
02/14/2013 01:57 PMPosted by Waste
Enrages are important components to a fight.

I think they have a place, for sure. But let's look at Garalon for an example of how you could do better:

Right now, at exactly 7 minutes, he flies up into the air and kills everyone with an "insta-kill" ability. Game over, end of story, do more deeps next time kthx.

What if, instead, at 6 minutes, the pheremone trail started getting progressively wider? Or his legs stopped breaking? Or he got a progressive speed buff? Or if the pungency debuff didn't drop off any more? Or . . . well, you get the idea.

There are a ton of ways to say "if you haven't done it yet, you are going to be punished - and the longer you take, the worse the beating." It is very effective, but far more interesting than a "DING! YOU LOSE!"

For example, I really liked the Dreamweaver soft enrage - the longer you took, the more adds came, until it was comically overwhelming. At the same time, yes, there were probably guilds that were good enough at handling add that they lasted longer "than intended." I think that's probably good -

I don't think Dreamweaver becomes a better encounter if you replace the "death by adds" soft enrage with a hard stop at 7:04 into the encounter. If fact, I think it becomes a worse one.


All the examples you listed are just different means to the same end, a wipe, and they all require essentially the same remedy, more dps. The massive crush at the end of Garalon seems appropriate, an enormous version of a mechanic he's been doing the whole fight, and he is a rather large bug. It's no more possible to heal through than the entire floor being covered with pheromone trails.
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90 Troll Death Knight
11995
What I meant with Garajal was have something that basically would've wiped you at the intended enrage timer (can't remember it off the top of my head) instead of it just flat out killing you. I couldve seen them, say, at X amount of time totems stop spawning and the adds down below keep spawning. I think for many people it just seems like a very lazy mechanic, though IMO it ensures there's no way to cheese it and is a good mechanic for that reason.

One thing dps checks, and for that matter the huge variety of types of challenges, do is they help keep guilds away of content their gear isn't ready for yet. This is why people think Terrace is so easy. It's not, you just have downed many, many bosses of similar tuning level before you get there, and then you roll because of the gear. (Especially when all the bosses are gear checks).

If you could enter Terrace at the same time as HoF, you'd have probably just as many people asking for help on Tsulong as Garalon.
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32 Undead Warlock
10335
02/14/2013 06:38 AMPosted by Xpariah
Also, let me add this as well: you don't need to hear why people died mid-pull. If you listened to our raids and heard a trial start to explain their death, you would hear me yelling "Shut up!" pretty quickly. Now, that language or its delivery might not be appropriate for your guild or raiding environment but you can usually convey the same feeling without being as mean about it.


Xpariah that was a great post. So many of the things you said make SO much sense, especially regarding not calling out a mistake just because you made one. Reading your post, I see that most of what you said are things my RL does that make him great, and there are also a few areas he could improve on. Knowing your raiders and how each one handles criticism is SO important. If I get yelled at, for instance, my performance goes into the toilet. Call me weak, but I'm an emotional girl and it's just what happens. Others, the more you yell at them, the more they push themselves. Most of the time, he is fairly good at coaching each one of us effectively.

Not many people realize the difference a raid leader makes in the overall performance of a team. I'd say many of the upper echelon progression guilds are where they're at primarily due to confident, assertive, and knowledgeable raid leaders. Before I joined my current guild back in Wrath, I was a pretty sub-par player. The building blocks were there, but it was because of my guild's leadership that we were able to finish out that same xpac as a top 25 US 10m casual (Guildox gear-determined ranking) raid team.
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90 Troll Death Knight
11995
One thing Blizz has to worry about when designing bosses is if you made all normal mode bosses more like Amber Shaper, Stone Guard and Spirit Kings is you could have guilds get through normals too fast and just get demolished in heroics.

The problem to me with Garalon is where he's placed. He is the 3rd boss in HoF and I think when people clear MsV on normal they never go back there even if they need the gear. It just feels odd completely clearing again an instance you have on farm when there's progression to be made for some people. I think where people get stuck is they get to Garalon and their gear ilvl is barely increasing from week to week. Downing 2 bosses only before Garalon each week. If Garalon was the 9th boss of a 16 boss 1 zone instance the kill rate of him would go up.
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90 Night Elf Monk
11460
Someone didnt run mc with 14 healers

I mean, every fight has a healing requirement, even with 100% avoidable damage, you still have unavoidable damage that healers have to heal through.

Why should healers have a required amount of healing when DPS wouldn't?


Haha MC was so long ago I can't even remember what sort of team we had, 40 people was pretty crazy.

DPS still have to kill the boss, even if an encounter didn't have an enrage I would still give it my all and kill the guy as fast as I could. If we don't hit the boss' enrage timer, we would surely hit our raid leader's enrage timer. I don't think we need extra extra extra motivation to kill bosses in a timely manner because there is plenty of motivation there to start with.

Anyways, garalon 10 is designed for 3 heals, the pugs I run with use 3 for safety, and we still satisfy the enrage, if you're having trouble drop to 2 healers. If you can't win with 2 heals, but cant meet the enrage with 5(6 if you do the dps tank thing), then you need to simply improve throughput by gear or practice.

I'm just picturing a boss like Bladelord stacking intensity, and getting to the triple digits, and 6 healers still healing through, I actually remember doing MC with over a dozen healers as MC had no real enrage timers, BWL was when it started being a big deal.


We don't even have 6 healers and I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to drag out that fight to be like an hour long... maybe like a team of old people that just like to take their time and do everything right.

Bladelord would still fill the whole place with tornadoes and we'd all bounce around to death, or he'd start to 1shot the tanks, or Unseen Strike just kills everyone even though they stacked up perfectly haha.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
02/14/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Zenway
We don't even have 6 healers and I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to drag out that fight to be like an hour long... maybe like a team of old people that just like to take their time and do everything right.


People are asking to drag it more than 1 minute past it's original timer, which is already ~17% longer than original, with no enrage timer, I guarantee you'd see 15+ minute kills.

You're asking for fights to be drug out
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90 Draenei Death Knight
7485
I know Garalon caused me to improve my play drastically. I stopped being mediocre and actually had to learn how to dps. It's a great boss that tells underperforming dps to step it up.
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90 Night Elf Monk
11460
People are asking to drag it more than 1 minute past it's original timer, which is already ~17% longer than original, with no enrage timer, I guarantee you'd see 15+ minute kills.

You're asking for fights to be drug out


Is that such a bad thing? God forbid a fight to last 60 seconds longer.
Imagine how many guilds would be able to progress if Garalon waited one more minute before his lolcrush.

Why doesn't he just do it at the very start and save his kneecaps a lot of pain?
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