Garalon, Enrage Timers, Raid Leading.

90 Troll Hunter
8865
We were stuck on Garalon for ~50 wipes. That was ~10 hours of attempts which was three weeks raiding, for my guild.

Without an enrage we would have beaten him on the 10th attempt and he would be a free loot boss.

With the enrage his death brought a passionate emotional outburst and as a young guild bringing down Garalon (and sticking together through weeks of stalled progression) really brought us together.

It turns out that we were doing the legs like idiots, of course. Once I read a leg / dps timing strategy on these forums we started downing him with 2 minutes to spare. Oops.

Enrages are important components to a fight. Without one we certainly would run 4 heals on every encounter. Why wouldn't you?


Honestly, I haven't seen a N mode only guild that pushes content that hard. With a few tweaks here and there (replacing bad players, everyone showing up knowing strats, optimizing rotations for the fight, etc) you could easily be beating the harder heroics. So much of it is simply about persistence.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Warrior
17455
Thanks :)

I think so too. When I started up the guild pre-MoP I didn't bill us as a heroic progression guild. So I'm sort of tiptoeing around it at the moment. Once we try heroic MV I think people will see that it's also fun and not the boogie man.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
We got along just fine before when every single boss didn't have an enrage timer, everyone didn't stack healers like crazy. They just sorta went with what was comfortable.


Enrage timers (or now Berserk timers) were actually a reactionary addition to cut off the trend that people WERE starting to do.

Enrage timers also serve a function in the tuning or progressive feel of encounters/raids/tiers, because complexity alone cannot really serve that purpose, especially across multiple tiers of the expansion. Now you could argue that Normal should have soft berserks only, but the response will probably be that they use the one that feels more appropriate for the fight. Garalon going SQUISH on your face fits him, whereas for Will it fits to have Titan Gas never go away. Not every fight has a mechanic that does fit neatly into a soft berserk mechanic, and they don't feel a need to break the flavour to achieve that (because there's really not much of a convincing argument for why hard Berserks shouldn't exist in Normal anyway).
Edited by Slashlove on 2/14/2013 3:38 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
aus
18580
I also don't really have a big issue with normal mode raids having slightly unbalanced rosters. Would it really be such a nightmare for the game if it was possible to 4-heal Garalon on normal mode? I don't think it would be very exciting personally, but if that is what you had to work with, what's the big deal?


The enrage on empress is very soft, do people routinely 4 heal empress? No. So why assume people would 4 heal 10 man garalon?

Even then 3 healing Garalon is not actually that hard, we limped to a 3 heal enrage the very first day we got to him.

No what makes Garalon is not 3 healing its 3 or 2 healing while 1-3 healers also kite and you have dps "tanking". All to make that ludicrously tight hard enrage.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Death Knight
17665
02/14/2013 04:40 PMPosted by Mate
No what makes Garalon is not 3 healing its 3 or 2 healing while 1-3 healers also kite and you have dps "tanking". All to make that ludicrously tight hard enrage.


I would argue that normal garalon's enrage before they buffed it by a minute was ludicrously tight.

It's not so much now, good leg management usually solves all the issues people are having as the DPS check is nowhere near as high as people put it, once they stop blowing up legs with inefficient damage.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
aus
18580
02/14/2013 04:44 PMPosted by Postonforums
It's not so much now, good leg management usually solves all the issues people are having as the DPS check is nowhere near as high as people put it, once they stop blowing up legs with inefficient damage.


Maybe we still are, We finally got our kill time down to a minute under enrage this last week. But every fight post garalon other then not being able to carry a offspec healer on Sha the dps was a non-issue. Do the mechanics correctly the boss falls over dead.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
02/14/2013 04:40 PMPosted by Mate
The enrage on empress is very soft, do people routinely 4 heal empress? No. So why assume people would 4 heal 10 man garalon?


Quite a few people 4 heal 10H.

Some guilds even did 4 heals and/or 3 tanks for 10H stoneguards.

If the enrage lets you do stupid things to make fights easier, people will.

If the enrage wasn't there, people would definitely 4 heal normal garalon.
Edited by Ðemolition on 2/14/2013 5:52 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
The enrage on empress is very soft, do people routinely 4 heal empress? No. So why assume people would 4 heal 10 man garalon?


People could 4-heal, but I think you're conflating reasons. The idea isn't that EVERYONE will run so many healers for everything, it's so that people have an incentive to not trivialise fight mechanics by doing so.

Shek'zeer being a more complex fight than Garalon has several more wiping points and complex mechanics. She has actual tank damage, transitions, phases, handling Cry/Dissonance etc. Garalon has 2-3 things - Pheromones, Swipe and Legs, and that's it. As such, the dps requirement being there is pretty much the thing about the fight in a way that doesn't apply to Shek'zeer - take it out and bump his Berserk to 10 minutes and as a fight the requirements/challenge are severaly weakened, especially if you run 4 healers and neuter the only other thing that's left (raid damage from either Pheromones or Crushes)

Bearing in mind that Shek'zeer does have thresholds that need to be met, and stresses your healers, your tanks and your entire raid to a far greater extend than Garalon anyway, Garalon's berserk time makes perfect sense. It merely feels jarring to people because they can usually play around raiders who die to pass/fail mechanics or fail coordination checks (like half the raid dying to Blade Lord p2, or going into p2 with 7 people, etc. as long as enough time is left to make the kill happen), but they have to do something entirely different to work around raiders who aren't pushing the right buttons.

But every fight post garalon other then not being able to carry a offspec healer on Sha the dps was a non-issue. Do the mechanics correctly the boss falls over dead.


Coordinating leg damage IS a mechanic, so if a guild is struggling with Berserk and not doing that mechanic properly, *shrug*
Edited by Slashlove on 2/14/2013 6:41 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
13890
3. I used to like being a raid leader, but after this boss I am starting to hate what the job requires

I dont want to be a bad guy, more so I don't like having to be the one to tell someone to do this and do that to increase their effectiveness to the point that I get the feedback of why changing A to B or B to A doesn't work for them, and in such their performance is not where it should be.


Note that there is a Guild & Raid Leadership forum where you may be able to get more advice from experienced leaders.

When you're putting more time into a player's toon than they are, it's easy to get burned out. My advice would be not to raid with lazy players like that. If that means you have to quit your group, it's the best decision in the long run.

It's good if you can have another person with good PR skills who's in charge of whipping players into line outside of raid time, so that you can focus on what you enjoy which is conducting the group through the fight mechanics, and avoid burnout.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
13890
If there's no enrage timers then the fight just becomes a mechanics check. If you can move out of fire, you win. The enrage timer requires the players to be able to optimize their use of tank/DPS/heal abilities while simultaneously moving out of fire.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
13890
02/14/2013 12:55 PMPosted by Corpserun
For a family friendly 25 man guild, Garalon is pretty rough. My opinion is that you should be able to run with 7 healers, have decent dps and still beat the enrage timer with 15-30 seconds. This is with appropriate gear for the content (a few clears of WotE in addition to a couple clears through Blademaster. Currently, it requires fewer healers and a fairly strict enrage timer even with those fewer healers.


I disagree here, having done it on 25man. You are most likely using the wrong strategy if you hit enrage (e.g. asking RDPS to stand in weak points, or follow a moving stack point)
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
13890
02/14/2013 02:00 PMPosted by Tristarae
There's a massive surplus of dps players, we don't want people 2 tanking and 6 healing fights.


This varies from server to server obviously. In my previous guild we couldn't find 2 tanks that could cope with Stone Guard. In the current guild we have plenty of tanking and healing, but strugging to find DPS - often the back markers are around 40K on fights like Empress.
Reply Quote
1 Pandaren Rogue
0
I actually disagree with this. Who in their right mind would spend 30 minutes on a boss if they could kill it faster? Do you really think a guild would *choose* to do 3 hours clears of HoF by bringing 6 healers? I can't picture that, but I suppose we're all just guessing.


Guilds that can't beat enrage timers would. A lot of players would also sit around blaming healers for not surviving an extra two minutes of soft enrage.

02/14/2013 03:10 PMPosted by Zenway
Imagine how many guilds would be able to progress if Garalon waited one more minute before his lolcrush.


You can apply that to every single boss. Imagine how many people would progress if every boss had 1 more minute on their soft/hard enrages.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Death Knight
17665
The irony of that 1 more minute comment

Garalon normal gained a full minute.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Druid
6550
1. Garalon, I hate you. But it also got me wondering (after reaching enrage with Garalon under 10% countless times tonight on progression attempts)

2. Having said that, why exactly do "enrage" timers exist in normals and not just in heroics where you have to be at your A+ game to matter?

Afterall isn't heroic modes the only thing that really matters in true progression?

3. I used to like being a raid leader, but after this boss I am starting to hate what the job requires

I dont want to be a bad guy, more so I don't like having to be the one to tell someone to do this and do that to increase their effectiveness to the point that I get the feedback of why changing A to B or B to A doesn't work for them, and in such their performance is not where it should be.

Is there anything other raid leaders can tell me to possibly assist in my I guess you could say people skills, cause at this point I am one of the chillest people and I think possibly that my not instantly kicking people for making silly mistakes is making the people in my group suffer because I am not perhaps more hard on people for easily avoiding the simple mechanics.

I mean even during tonight I misclicked my intervene and backstepped into the purple circle causing a crush, this coming after just a few minutes earlier I had to criticize someone for doing the same mistake, so therefore irony crit me right in the ego.


You could possibly give us some ideas of how you do the fight so we could provide some advice. A lot of time if you are struggling with enrage you can forego the tank soakers and just use melee dps and/or holy paladin to soak the cleave. Are you using 2 or 3 healers? How many stacks are you going up to on switches? How many kiters do you have in your rotation?
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
17485
1. Garalon, I hate you. But it also got me wondering (after reaching enrage with Garalon under 10% countless times tonight on progression attempts)

2. Having said that, why exactly do "enrage" timers exist in normals and not just in heroics where you have to be at your A+ game to matter?


As has been pointed out, BECAUSE of the leg mechanic, the berserk does matter in Garalon. If the berserk didn't exist, you could handle the legs completely incorrectly (everyone just nukes them down without bothering to be in the circle or cleaving).

More generally, it forces DPS to matter so guilds don't stack healers.

And Mate, as people said, you DO four heal 10H Empress. It's also viable for 10N Empress, just means you'll almost certainly get a second add phase.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Warrior
17115
5 heal heroic empress 10 actually works too.

25 usually runs ~8-9
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Death Knight
17665
02/15/2013 09:31 PMPosted by Tacobeef
Really? No random stuff? Like when Garalon decides to spin around randomly and swipe the raid? Or when he does the cha-cha-cha swiping all over the place and generating 3 fury in 6 seconds with absolutely nothing you can do about it but just eat the extra damage or wipe it immediately? Nothing random indeed...


Pro-tip.

This is being caused by your kiters.

02/15/2013 09:31 PMPosted by Tacobeef
Garalon is the most poorly tuned, poorly tested and flat-out worst gimmick boss (they always are) in the game right now. At least Blizzard nerfed previously poorly designed gimmick bosses to compensate, but in this case - they decided to make it the roadblock boss that every raid features now to extend subscriptions arbitrarily.


Sorry that your raid consists of DS level DPS.
Edited by Postonforums on 2/15/2013 10:39 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
@OP: Start using logs.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]