An analysis of Warlock Tanking

90 Human Warlock
5880
Please critique, but don't just simply respond "Warlocks can't tank, herp derp"

An analysis of warlock tanking. Wall of text inc.

Hello

As many of you know during the Mists of Pandaria beta, the idea of warlock tanking was
thrown around. However, to many warlocks dismay, this vision never came to fruition.
Today I'm going to provide an analysis of why I think warlocks would make viable
tanks. I have played a tank with a warrior, druid, death knight, and paladin all up
to 80 and the warrior and DK above that. Blizzard is always saying how they read and
consider all well thought out threads, and this is my attempt at doing that.

TLDR: Warlocks have all the tools necessary to be able to tank, all that needs to
happen is for Blizzard to give the go ahead.

Table of Contents
1 - History
2 - Comparison
3 - Tools
4 - Common Complaints
5 - Recomendations

1) History

In the beginning, Warriors tanked. But World of Warcraft is an ever changing game.
The current system is nothing like it was many years ago when the game was first
introduced. As such, the classes have changed as well. Since the topic is the
viability of Warlock tanking, here are some examples of how classes have changed over
the years.

Feral druids
-In classic they weren't viable. Druids were healers. Period.
-then in BC they got love via talents and itemization support.
-then the fourth spec in Mists of Pandaria.

Similarly

Paladins.
-In classic they were simply NOT tanks. They had the tools, but due to poor
itemization, they weren't viable.
-In BC they got love via talents and itemization suport.

2) Comparison

First of all we have to decide who we should compare warlocks to. Basically we're
compared to tanks that don't use shields.

A) Druids (Agi leather)
Super high HP
Dodge

Defensive Cooldowns:
-Survival Instincts (50% less damage 3m CD)
-Barkskin (20% less damage 1m CD)
-Might of Ursoc (Last Stand)
-Enrage (resource generator)
-Savage Defense (45% dodge, basically druid shield block)
-Frenzied Regeneration (60 rage for 10% hp)

Talents:
Renewal (20% HP Heal 2m CD)

B) Death Knights (Plate)
High HP
Dodge
Parry
Active mitigation model

Defensive Cooldowns:
-Icebound fortitude (50% Less Damage 3m CD)
-Bone Shield (20% Less Damage 1m CD)
-Vampiric Blood (15% Hp, 25% bonus to healing 1m CD)
-Rune Tap (10% total health healed)
-Dancing Rune Weapon (20% parry)
-Army of the Dead (less damage equal to Dodge + Parry, usually about 30%)
Anti Magic Zone - 45s CD Both lower spell damage

Talents:
-Raise Dead + Death Pact (50% health restored 2m CD)
-Anti Magic Shell - 2m CD

C) Monks (Agi Leather) I know nothing about Monks and this is where I'd need help
High HP
dodge
parry

D) Warlocks
Would need high HP like druids due to lack of parry
Dodge
Dark Apotheosis (Physical damage reduction based on mastery and 15% magic damage
reduction)

Defensive Cooldowns:
Unending Resovle (40% damage reduc, 3m CD)
Healthstone (20% max health, limit 3)
Dark Soul Knowledge - (mastery buff,correleates to 10% physical damage reduction, 3m
CD)
Fury Ward (damage absorb, 10s cooldown)

Talents:
Dark Regeneration (30% HP and 25% bonus healing 2m CD)
Mortal Coil (15% hp 45s CD)
+20% HP through Soul Link - Sacrifice
Shadow Bulward through Sacrifice (30% Max Hp, 2m CD)
Archimonde Vengeance (5% damage reflect)
Edited by Keelon on 2/15/2013 1:54 PM PST
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90 Human Warlock
5880
3) Toolset:

Currently warlocks have the following tools for tanking
A) Dark Apotheosis
B) Twilight Ward
C) The option of either

Soul link with a voidwalker and Sacrifice
-Shadow Bulwark
-20% extra hp
or
Dark Bargain with Sacrifice
Shadow Bulwark
Less HP but an active damage mitigation

The Talents:

Tier 1
Dark Regeneration
-Our version of Last Stand

As it stands right now Soul Leech is not viable as a warlock tank but it could be
modified to be.

Tier 2
Mortal Coil
-15% Hp on 45s CD

Tier 3
Either SL or Dark Bargain
Explained above

Tier 4
Unbound will

Tier 5
Grim of Sac

Tier 6
Arch Vengeance for standard 1v1 fights
KJ Cunning for movement heavy fights
or Mannoroth for aoe heavy fights

4) Common complaints

A) More tanks will not shorten queue times
If more tanks do not shorten queue times then why every single time I queue as a tank
do I get a group within 3 seconds? Have I not shortened the queue time for that
healer and those 3 DPS by queueing as a tank vs the 20 min if I had queued as a dps?
Therefore, I shortened the queue time by me choosing to queue as a tank.

B) Warlocks don't want to tank
When the idea of Warlock tanking leaked out, many locks were extremely excited at the
opportunity to tank. Yes there are warlocks who don't feel like they should tank, but
why are their views more important than the views of the locks that want the choice to
tank?

C) Warlock lore doesn't support it
Warlock lore never mentioned turning into a demon yourself either. You commanded
them. And in this instance you're commanding the might of the voidwalker to fuse with
your essence to become an unstoppable phalanx.

D) Threat issues
Add a threat modifier when you Sac your Voidwalker. Most warlocks don't Sac
voidwalkers for damage, they Sacrifice or Felhunters for the interrupt.

E) Coding issues
Simple if then statement. If a warlock has the spell Dark Apotheosis in his spell
book, then the option to tank is able to be checked. But, people might say, just
because you can have Dark Apotheosis doesn't mean you can tank! My response to that
is just because a warrior or death knight can check the tank button doesn't guarantee
they're geared to tank or know how to either.

5) Recomendations

A) Give warlocks a 30 second CD resource generator, fix our taunt, and give crit immunity back to Dark Apotheosis. Considered buffing the Stamina of it as well.

B) Increase unending resolve to 50% from 40%

C) Need a 20% less damage, 1m CD ability. Call it Dark Aura.

D) Increase fury ward absorb based on mastery.

E) Increase the damage on Void Ray and make it a cleave, not a straight line.

F) Depending on how they model us, after druids or DK's, we need a dodge CD or a
parry CD.

Possible recomendations
G) Give demo warlocks Int Leather and lower the coefficients on Dark Apotheosis

H) Convert % Int or Crit to Dodge/Parry.

I) Modify Soul Leech to heal on Dark Apotheosis damage.
Edited by Keelon on 2/19/2013 3:53 PM PST
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90 Human Warlock
5880
reserved
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90 Undead Warlock
11760
I am a strong supporter of having warlock tanks and I am aware that this subject has already been rather clubbed to death, but oh it is fun to dream, and dream I will. So on the subject of wishing on a shooting star here it goes.

Some of the above I agree with some I don't. I've been tanking a lot lately and have a good feel for the play of it. I'm really not sure we need any more "tools", I think the kit is pretty well rounded out already. The defensive CD's we have are well on par with other tanks in functionality and given the wide array of them we have I don't think they really need to be fiddled with especially with soul leach being made into a shield in 5.2. The lock is very comparable to the DK tank in its feel and I think its really close to being a real tank. In beta when we had crit immunity locks really were functional tanks and played really well. They really seem quite complete for something that was just a glyph, it really seems polished and thought out. There are a few things I might change rotationally though. For instance in periods of heavy dmg and I am spamming fury ward on CD I become fury starved very quickly, also on aoe but most tanks have limited aoe capability anyway so I don't think thats a huge issue. One thing that could be cool is if drain life turns into the old siphon life DOT and have it generate some fury fixing the single target fury issue but not effecting aoe.

I was also thinking of the stat weighting issue. Bliz really wants to make tanks build a second tanking set and "invest", wich is understandable. The only other stat that warlocks don't use on dps gear, that is on cloth, is spirit. I don't think it would be possible to introduce a new genre of gear for cloth tanking, there would just be too many gear sets to cater to on one loot table. So the only reasonable option would be for locks to convert spirit into an avoidance stat which could be an interesting opportunity to introduce a new mitigation mechanic. There was once a period where locks used spirit on their gear and it wasn't game breaking so I think it could work. That would prob be enough to make them commit to a second set of gear much like a healer does now. Talking about stats making mastery effect fury ward in some way would definitely be a good fit. It might be nice to give it a bit of flavor though like putting a HOT on it for a percentage of the absorb or a demonic seed that proced on dmg or some other fun lock gimmick.

All in all I think lock tanks are fairly complete already, we just need a few tweaks and I think it would be good to go. Granted Bliz may just not want to support another class build, but heres to wishing.
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90 Draenei Paladin
3890
ok so having played feral/pally tank since vanilla

Feral druids
-In classic they weren't viable. Druids were healers. Period.
-then in BC they got love via talents and itemization support.
-then the fourth spec in Mists of Pandaria.

Similarly

Paladins.
-In classic they were simply NOT tanks. They had the tools, but due to poor
itemization, they weren't viable.
-In BC they got love via talents and itemization suport.


both are false unless you were hardcore then it was warrior only

locks are in no way comparable to Deathknights main reason for that is Dk's are op as hell what tank needs 45-60k pre-vengeance to do there job,nor would you compare locks to druids/warriors again none of the primary skill sets line up with the exeption of laststand/shadowbulwark

pallys are the closest to compare seeing as the mechanics of a pally are shield/selfheal/damage reduction, locks shield/selfheal/damage reduction

block is very easy to compare to straight damage reduction you block ???% of the time for 30% reduction of damage the whole 2 roll system makes things very easy the damage taken ???% of the time you you just times your ???% by .7 easy huh

SotR max possible uptime is 51.5% so you can effectively just halve its % for its damage reduction value

if a pally takes SS over EF then you can compare it to Fury ward quite well till about 60k vengeance

top dps possible by any class is 120k so with 500% threat you only need are 25-30k dps for threat solong as you hit first seeing as locks have no real taunt

crit immunity is a non-issue cause all it does is give locks damage spikes

GoSac is overrated for lock tanking GoSup/SL works just as good cleave heals are OP as hell

I) Modify Soul Leech to heal on Dark Apotheosis damage.
already does but the level of heal is pitiful

most of your recommendations are not required F) being particularly bad E)being the only one that has any merit

locktanks need a taunt, some way for there skills to scale on incoming damage and a more reactive way to deal with incomming damage then you have real lock tank that is all
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90 Pandaren Monk
9135
ok so having played feral/pally tank since vanilla

Feral druids
-In classic they weren't viable. Druids were healers. Period.
-then in BC they got love via talents and itemization support.
-then the fourth spec in Mists of Pandaria.

Similarly

Paladins.
-In classic they were simply NOT tanks. They had the tools, but due to poor
itemization, they weren't viable.
-In BC they got love via talents and itemization suport.


both are false unless you were hardcore then it was warrior only

locks are in no way comparable to Deathknights main reason for that is Dk's are op as hell what tank needs 45-60k pre-vengeance to do there job,nor would you compare locks to druids/warriors again none of the primary skill sets line up with the exeption of laststand/shadowbulwark

pallys are the closest to compare seeing as the mechanics of a pally are shield/selfheal/damage reduction, locks shield/selfheal/damage reduction

block is very easy to compare to straight damage reduction you block ???% of the time for 30% reduction of damage the whole 2 roll system makes things very easy the damage taken ???% of the time you you just times your ???% by .7 easy huh

SotR max possible uptime is 51.5% so you can effectively just halve its % for its damage reduction value

if a pally takes SS over EF then you can compare it to Fury ward quite well till about 60k vengeance

top dps possible by any class is 120k so with 500% threat you only need are 25-30k dps for threat solong as you hit first seeing as locks have no real taunt

crit immunity is a non-issue cause all it does is give locks damage spikes

GoSac is overrated for lock tanking GoSup/SL works just as good cleave heals are OP as hell

I) Modify Soul Leech to heal on Dark Apotheosis damage.
already does but the level of heal is pitiful

most of your recommendations are not required F) being particularly bad E)being the only one that has any merit

locktanks need a taunt, some way for there skills to scale on incoming damage and a more reactive way to deal with incoming damage then you have real lock tank that is all


I'm curious if you played the same classic WoW that I did with the comment of warriors being the only tanks just at hardcore levels. I'm very hard pressed to recall a fight anywhere that didn't require warrior tanks only, outside of the two many add fights in molten core which my guild let me stop healing and bear form tank the first add to die, then switch back to healing. But I digress.

Comparing locks with DA to any one particular tank probably isn't an apt description of warlocks abilities in DA. They seem to be more of an amalgamation (word a day calendar, blame my wife) of abilities from multiple other tanks. Our Fury Ward is more akin to Shield Barrier from warriors, our mastery is closer to a paladin's with straight damage reduction (slightly similar to druid as well though theirs is purely armor), we use drains and such for self healing similar to DKs, and if we get an actual fourth spec, we've got the option to in a pinch, hop out of our "tank form" and dps, similar to what druids can do (albeit all tanks can do that now with dual spec and all.) It really feels like DA was thrown in as a thought exercise about "what if we took all these abilities and styles from the other tanks to see how they'd mesh" and kinda got left in because it got a surprisingly good reaction from the community.

By the way, which paladin tanks are taking EF over SS? None that I know do, and I don't think I've ever really seen one that does. And the crit immunity that you say is a non-issue is actually one of the biggest reasons that warlocks cannot currently tank. Crit immunity is what keeps the RNG out of tank damage. It keeps those big hits that could take a tank down to half health from max from being able to one shot a tank randomly. It was the source of the itemization problems that you yourself said plagued the non-warrior tanks back pre-BC. The other tanks could not meet the defense threshold to be immune to crit and have the stats necessary to keep threat, since leather didn't drop, except for the small occasional piece iirc, with defense at all, and paladins didn't have the spell damage and int needed for their tanking abilities to function.

As for whether or not GoSac is superior to GoSup/SL for overall damage reduction and EH remains to be seen, but until we can actually play test and theorycraft (which is kinda a moot point without actually being able to be tested in "real world" situations) it's hard to say which would benefit lock tanks more. I agree with the need for an actual taunt, and possibly a way to scale with incoming damage, though it might not be required if our damage scaled other ways without making us OP in things other than tanking, which my suspicion is why they made this glyph essentially useless for what it appears to be designed to do.

As to the OP's suggestions, a lot of those I feel wouldn't be necessary for us to tank, though they may help. I don't like the idea of making lock tanks parry/dodge dependent, and would instead rather them have us be a passive DR combined with self-healing/drains to keep us alive rather than just stacking pure avoidance stats. I do approve greatly of the change to void ray, and would like to see fury ward scale though based on spell power instead of mastery. It would seem mildly OP if our passive damage reduction and active damage reduction scaled with our mastery as well, but could probably be done in a way that it wouldn't be.

I do feel that our biggest hurdles right now are lacking a real taunt, the crit immunity, and possibly threat/damage not scaling with gear and needing a vengeance mechanic like the other tanks have.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
8505
I definitely feel that if we can get the four thigns fixed, we would be viable.

*A Dodge>Stat conversion
*A better Taunt
*A vengance mechanic for generating threat
*An anti-crit solution

I have been a fan since day one of letting locks tank, especially with the glyph. I say if we fix those things we would be set.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9135
I definitely feel that if we can get the four thigns fixed, we would be viable.

*A Dodge>Stat conversion
*A better Taunt
*A vengance mechanic for generating threat
*An anti-crit solution

I have been a fan since day one of letting locks tank, especially with the glyph. I say if we fix those things we would be set.


I'm not even sure we would need a vengeance mechanic for generating threat if done well enough. If the design philosophy behind the vengeance for other tanks is to not allow DPS to go all out straight on the pull, we have the perfect solution in the form of our DoTs (I'll admit, I'm not too familiar on the "why" of vengeance in the first place other than it's "necessary" for other tanks to keep/generate threat). If our DoTs were to add a certain amount of threat each time they add damage, as opposed to calculating X threat when cast, and then letting it do its thing, kinda like the bleed from warriors' stuff (can't remember the name at 3 in the morning...) where you don't worry about the extra threat from that, might be a fun mechanic to play around with.
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90 Human Warlock
6050
02/16/2013 12:06 AMPosted by Divinepanda
(I'll admit, I'm not too familiar on the "why" of vengeance in the first place other than it's "necessary" for other tanks to keep/generate threat)


Vengeance more or less separates tanks from dps to an extreme degree. Not just for more damage/aggro boost. Vengeance gives insane amounts of attack power, which is used in nearly everything in a tanks arsenal.

For example: A bear tanks frenzied regeneration might only heal for 6-8k when you have no vengeance, but with alot of vengeance that same self heal will do...50k, or 100k, or even 150k. I don't tank raids so idk how high that can actually get, but it's a crazy amount of difference.

Basically that means we cannot scale up to normal/heroic raid level tanking without gaining some form of vengeance. We are however tuned to operate on par/better than other tanks when it comes to tanking dungeons, both regs & heroics. I've even gotten to tank a few LFR's before, and I was perfectly fine.

Seems like warlock tanks are tuned to be able to tank somewhere between lfr and normal raids atm. The 10% damage reduction we'll be getting may or may not move that bar up to normal raids. Kinda doubt it though.

Point of the story, we need a form of vengeance so our def abilities can scale with incoming damage. Because a 75k Fury ward simply means alot less in a heroic raid than it means in a dungeon.
Edited by Urmomsaidwow on 2/16/2013 1:11 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
3890
Divinepanda 3 things firstly i never said the very start of vanilla you could tank i just said that in vanilla toward the end bears/pallys were used as Offtanks usually overgeared for the content they were tanking the gear was there just low drop rates

second crit immune didn't come in till atleast late in bc more likely in WoLK not sure of the exact timing because i skipped portions but still in normal current content now even with the prospect of getting crit nothing will 1 shot on crit if you have a tank healthpool solong as you are keeping on top of debuffs. you also seem to misunderstand how damage reduction work when compared to avoidance

third comparing to a pally is easier because the equations are far more simple then comparing to a war/dk/bear, pally mechanics are fairly faceroll comparatively

i probably should of clarified more specifically.

locks as dodge/parry based would be craptacular both in law and practice casters getting there dodge on yep that a good idea herpy durp dur makes far more sense to having blocktype(shield) or health regen.
locks shouldn't be a passive stat stack tank. passive tanking is boring

locks don't really need there damage to be boosted threw a vengeance esque mechanic just our defensive skills needs the boost for the current content.

fury ward does scales off SP directly maybe if it had a mastery multiplyer coefficient too like
Fury Ward
(3xsp)(1/10mastery%)shield from all damage

Drain life and soulfire need a bit of love for DA too i like the idea of
Siphon lifeinstant cast (non-refreshable at max stacks)
siphons life from the target, causing 1926 (+ 5% of SpellPower) Shadow damage/healing over 18 sec. Stacks 1/5 mastery generates 4 DF base +1 per stack per tick(replaces drainlife)

Burning Soulinstant cast 4 sec recharge effected by Molten Core
Burn the enemy's soul, causing 673 to 822 (+ 70% of SpellPower)(1/6 crit) Fire damage raising a flame shield 1/4 damage dealt If used on a target below 25% health, the attack will trigger Molten Core.[molten core now also procs after 20%damage taken maxprocs 1 proc per damaging attack] generates 30 DF

Off topic
SS/EF are both currently viable its just that SS if far easier to use ramp up vengeance, SS every 30 secs easy as pie, EF is more reactive to incoming damage you know a damage spike is coming you use EF, scales far better then SS with vengeance
/Off topic
Edited by Kaizban on 2/16/2013 3:11 AM PST
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90 Human Warlock
6050
Siphon lifeinstant cast (non-refreshable at max stacks)
siphons life from the target, causing 1926 (+ 5% of SpellPower) Shadow damage/healing over 18 sec. Stacks 1/5 mastery generates 4 DF base +1 per stack per tick(replaces drainlife)


Sounds alot like our Harvest Life Talent. Aside from the instant cast thing. Harvest life gives us fury and heals us. I think that is fine as is.
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90 Human Warlock
8955
Arent we tanky enough? In general Warlocks have always felt like a "battlemage", we can take lots of damage and mitigate..we have the health of warriors and the like and the damage of a mage who doesn't know how to play.

And lets face the facts, after this many years do you really think they'd just make Warlocks into viable tanks? Next priests will have a "cleric" tree where they whack crap with flails.
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90 Undead Warlock
12555
Not trying to sound elitist but everyone so far that I've seen that want warlock tanks, don't have much raiding exp on their warlock character.
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90 Goblin Warlock
8315
I had to go tank mode for garalon and i will say that
I enjoyed it more than I thought I was going to,I was pulling x2 if not more dps than our warrior tank, but yeah.. i did often get hit big with out any cds or fury left, so it does need some work on it but i strongly support warlock tanking
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
8505
02/16/2013 09:04 AMPosted by Kruil
Not trying to sound elitist but everyone so far that I've seen that want warlock tanks, don't have much raiding exp on their warlock character.


Whats your definition of experience? =P I have plenty, starting from WotLK and I want it.

*Naxx 10
*Ulduar 10
*ToC 10
*ICC 10
*FL 10
*DS 10

=P jussayin, ive been in raids.
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90 Undead Warlock
12555
I had to go tank mode for garalon and i will say that
I enjoyed it more than I thought I was going to,I was pulling x2 if not more dps than our warrior tank, but yeah.. i did often get hit big with out any cds or fury left, so it does need some work on it but i strongly support warlock tanking


For normal Garalon you don't even need tanks. You just need 2 people to soak to make sure he doesn't build up fury. Rouges can do this.
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90 Undead Warlock
12555
*Naxx 10
*Ulduar 10
*ToC 10
*ICC 10
*FL 10
*DS 10

=P jussayin, ive been in raids.


I don't see any raid experience for this tier really.
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90 Worgen Warlock
18570
I would support locks having a legit tank spec. Last time I was progression raiding was T12. Then "retired" to be in an IRL friend's guild when cancer struck the family and I didn't have the time to HC raid anymore.

25m Hrag kill 9/22/11 vs your 12/26/12 so I did that a year and change ahead of you...
25m Sinestra was 4/25/11 vs your 11/25/12 so again over a year ahead of your progression.
Same can be said of h.alakir and h.nef.... At nearly 18K ach points you could say I've "been there and done that" for much of what this game offers and much of it when it was relevant content.

I think demo would be a good tanking spec with just a little work. It would also give demo a niche which blizz has always struggled with in terms of the spec. Aff can have its dots/pressure, destro can have its nukes/burst, demo can be the tank spec. Also I had long been a supporter of making spirit a tanking stat for locks. That gives exactly the same itemization spread that other dps/tank hybrids have and so far spirit cloth is the solo domain of priests so it would give the gear a bit more varied use. You could give DA back a legit taunt and vs pve uncrittable status easily. To scale with heroic raids and extreme vengeance situations (eg solo tanking windlord) we probably would need vengeance just tie it to spellpower instead of AP.
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90 Draenei Paladin
3890
the suggestions were to give a roughtermations of what would be required as a full time tank by limiting the the refresh and tying into mastery it keeps you having to do something to stay alive and brings in more specific gearing. which is what blizzard wants

i was under the impression that HL didn't gen fury in DA, to be honest i don't pick it because it seems a tad op/limited i know odd combo how can something be both OP and limited, its kinda like a putting bull in a china shop to break 1 plate, part of tanking is picking the mob/s you want not just pulling the room and its kinda pointless in single target fights, that and i don't think tanks should be channeling.

as for spirit gear its a good idea but alot more time consuming short term effectivly all the DA skills would have to be modified to incorporate spirit as well as a new mechanic specificly for locks, how would you do it? (please don't say like avoidance)
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90 Undead Warlock
12555
25m Hrag kill 9/22/11 vs your 12/26/12 so I did that a year and change ahead of you...
25m Sinestra was 4/25/11 vs your 11/25/12 so again over a year ahead of your progression.
Same can be said of h.alakir and h.nef.... At nearly 18K ach points you could say I've "been there and done that" for much of what this game offers and much of it when it was relevant content.


I took a break at start of Cata and came back at Dragon Soul. But if you want to play the progression card then I'm ahead of you with a Heroic Wind Lord kill.

We have enough tank classes as it is. If you want to tank, then re-roll a tank...don't make every class into a tank class.
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