Fixing Shadow Priests ...The 'S' Word ?

90 Draenei Priest
6645
Since we aren't allowed to say 'scaling' anymore apparently, according to GC.

So, by the looks of the testing on the PTR - the new Insanity mechanic and the Mind Blast buff put us pretty much where we are on live. Bottom of the barrel performance (as a class) on single target dps, with lower-midrange performance when we can multidot and pad the numbers.

I know that Spriests were OP in PvP, but I don't think that they should be punished for an entire 2 tiers in PvE for it.

The easiest 2 fixes would be:

- Insanity becomes:
Every time your Damage Over Time effects crit, your Mind Blast cooldown is reduced by x seconds.
- Glyph of Mind Flay
Your Mind Flay can now be cast while moving, but no longer snares the target.

Boom. Scaling and mobility issues fixed.
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90 Draenei Priest
16680
Not for nothing, but even with the bandaid fix they just put in shadow priests are liable to be inordinately benefited by the gearing this tier with Unerring Vision of Lei Shen and our t15 set bonuses.

We're also not as far behind as you claim we are, and while I'm not overly excited about the new Insanity, I haven't seen solid math on it yet either. Between that and the mind blast buff we might be more competitive on the type of fights that have stunted us this tier.
Edited by Mitosis on 2/17/2013 6:53 PM PST
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- Insanity becomes:
Every time your Damage Over Time effects crit, your Mind Blast cooldown is reduced by x seconds.
- Glyph of Mind Flay
Your Mind Flay can now be cast while moving, but no longer snares the target.


The problem with the first is that that would force Spriests into a talent in that tier just to be balanced, therefore mandatory. Something Blizzard doesn't want.

There are personal reasons as to why I don't think the second one is a good idea either but I'll leave those to myself as they hold no baring on the state of your class as a whole.


Agreed. That's why I'm not too thrilled about Solace and Insanity. I like the idea behind the talent, but it can't be the only thing buffing our single target damage because it's a talent and not supposed to be mandatory. If we get any kind of fix, it can't come from a talent because then it removes the choices we're supposed to be have.

I do think that Mind Flay should be castable on the move. Our mobility is pretty bad, and that would be the easiest fix.

Also, there was a blue post a while back that said that Shadowy Apparition mechanics should be improved for 5.2. If that's still the case, it might indirectly improve our crit scaling, since more SW:P crits mean more Shadowy Apparitions, and better AI means more damage.
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90 Draenei Priest
16680
People need to stop suggesting moving mind flay. I'm as bitter about hunters and warlocks as everyone else, but the dev team has made it clear that if they had the freedom to go redesign everything pretty much all cast-while-moving effects would go away. They're unlikely to add more.
Edited by Mitosis on 2/17/2013 6:59 PM PST
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02/17/2013 06:59 PMPosted by Mitosis
People need to stop suggesting moving mind flay. I'm as bitter about hunters and warlocks as everyone else, but the dev team has made it clear that if they had the freedom to go redesign everything pretty much all cast-while-moving effects would go away. They're unlikely to add more.


Still, Shadow's movement is pretty bad, we need something to help with movement fights.

The only things we have are ticking DoTs (lackluster) and spammable SW:P, which doesn't hit very hard. If they don't want to let us cast Mind Flay while on the move, then they should at least revert the Shadowy Apparitions change and once again tie it to movement instead of critical strike.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/17/2013 06:59 PMPosted by Mitosis
People need to stop suggesting moving mind flay. I'm as bitter about hunters and warlocks as everyone else, but the dev team has made it clear that if they had the freedom to go redesign everything pretty much all cast-while-moving effects would go away. They're unlikely to add more.


The devs say a lot of things. They tend to change from week to week, and depending on which dev is posting. I've learned to start taking them with several pinches of salt.

02/17/2013 06:45 PMPosted by Teryaki
The problem with the first is that that would force Spriests into a talent in that tier just to be balanced, therefore mandatory. Something Blizzard doesn't want.


Then make it baseline? I'd rather have a mandatory talent (not the only class that has one) than suck, wouldn't you?

02/17/2013 06:56 PMPosted by Flintte
Also, there was a blue post a while back that said that Shadowy Apparition mechanics should be improved for 5.2. If that's still the case, it might indirectly improve our crit scaling, since more SW:P crits mean more Shadowy Apparitions, and better AI means more damage.


By the looks of it, this didn't (and probably won't) get implemented. My SAs are still derp-tastic.

02/17/2013 06:56 PMPosted by Flintte
Agreed. That's why I'm not too thrilled about Solace and Insanity. I like the idea behind the talent, but it can't be the only thing buffing our single target damage because it's a talent and not supposed to be mandatory. If we get any kind of fix, it can't come from a talent because then it removes the choices we're supposed to be have.


I wouldn't worry. From the guy that did a lot of testing on PTR, Insanity is mostly a wash with the other options and only gives a small dps buff (something like 0.7%) on situations where you can stand and cast for a long time.

Not for nothing, but even with the bandaid fix they just put in shadow priests are liable to be inordinately benefited by the gearing this tier with Unerring Vision of Lei Shen and our t15 set bonuses. We're also not as far behind as you claim we are, and while I'm not overly excited about the new Insanity, I haven't seen solid math on it yet either. Between that and the mind blast buff we might be more competitive on the type of fights that have stunted us this tier.


I wouldn't be concerned. GC has already said that we are going to be treated as a special case as far as trinkets go, to ensure that we aren't OP.

Which probably means we will continue to be UP...but that's the balance game I guess.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
TO me, cast on the move should have been restricted for the most part to shamans under the effect of Spirit Walkers. Hunters when they had Fox may have fallen into this bracket as well with Steady Shot/Cobra Shot but with Fox gone as well as no dead zone, casting on the move is no longer needed.To me, ranged should not of been the mobile dps as it is too powerful to have both movement and ranged at the same time. Melee were fine with having mobile dps due to the fact that they had to be well...in range of you.


Yes.

But you already *have* mobile casters. And Blizzard aren't exactly going to remove it at this point, due to the incredible QQ storm it would set off from locks and hunters.

The only fair solution is to deal it out evenly, especially to Spriests and Bdruids due to the immobility of these specs.
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90 Undead Priest
0
I'd hate to pop your bubble, but if you think the development team isn't buffing Shadow Priest damage in PvE because they are afraid of the PvP ramifications, then you are sorely mistaken.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/17/2013 09:10 PMPosted by Multicidez
I'd hate to pop your bubble, but if you think the development team isn't buffing Shadow Priest damage in PvE because they are afraid of the PvP ramifications, then you are sorely mistaken.


What other reason could there be?

I'd *hate* to think that they consider it fine that a class with only 1 dps spec is only close to the median *if* apparitions work properly (lets say...50% of the time), if there are adds and if they have good RNG.

If they do then I can only assume that the guy in charge of Elemental Shaman is now in charge of Shadow Priests.
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90 Human Priest
12730
You really should keep up with the actual theorycrafting done in relation to these changes:
http://howtopriest.com/viewforum.php?f=21

You're quite misinformed atm.
Edited by Woaden on 2/17/2013 9:44 PM PST
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90 Human Warlock
17825
The Cata paradigm where Spriests were Top tier Single Target, Burst, AOE, and multidot while also contributing more raid healing then any dps class was an aberation and an example of bad balance.

Perhaps it's time to admit that Spriests are not ment to be a high dps class in all situations, and perhaps being on the lower end of the spectrum on single target fights is not an error to be fixed. I've seen Spriests excell in a number of encounters, esp where multidotting is allowed... and their healing output as a dps spec is still very strong. Maybe it's time to just accept in MOP that balance means not being among the best at everything all the time and constantly asking for 'fixes' to the areas where you are not top performing is missing the point.
Edited by Thanatosia on 2/17/2013 10:01 PM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
You really should keep up with the actual theorycrafting done in relation to these changes:http://howtopriest.com/viewforum.php?f=21You're quite misinformed atm.


Care to elaborate?

I took a look at those forums, and couldn't find any concrete information at all, mostly discussion (and saying how OP troll priests will be...but thats another issue).

I'm *really* not going to trawl the net/3rd party sites before making a thread.

The only real testing I've seen number wise was on the PTR in the big 'class issues' thread.

EDIT: After further reading on your site, I still can't find anything concrete. Some people say our scaling sucks. Some people post conflicting sims, or outdated information. Some people argue about the new trink, why moonkins get different treatment from Spriests (and whether or not the mechanical change will be another overall nerf) and haggling over DP+orb priority.

EDIT2: After further, further reading on your site it seems that Apparitions aren't working properly and the change hasn't been implemented (and thus likely won't before release). They are still buggy, broken and often vanish without doing anything. Which is what I said.

Perhaps it's time to admit that Spriests are not ment to be a high dps class in all situations, and perhaps being on the lower end of the spectrum on single target fights is not an error to be fixed. I've seen Spriests excell in a number of encounters, esp where multidotting is allowed... and their healing output as a dps spec is still very strong. Maybe it's time to just accept in MOP that balance means not being good at everything all the time and constantly asking for 'fixes' to the areas where you are not top performing is missing the point.


Okay, lets nerf Demonology dps by 20% because of your Dark Apothesis glyph letting you do some offtanking. Oh, and better take off another 5% for healthstones and another 5% for your portal.

Fair?

Of course not. You can't tell a dps character 'oh, you can suck it because you have x utility'. This went away with Shamans. You balance utility between classes and you balance dps between classes with as little overlap as you can.

Being balanced around multidotting was something most spriests have been worried about for ages. Being balanced around healing in PvE? Really?

If we were absolutely blowing other classes out of the water in multidot situtations, then I'd say okay. But we aren't. We are middle tier when we can multidot

Nobody realistically wants to be best at everything. But being at least median single target should be expected (since we aren't exactly top tier in multidots either, and any situation where SA cannot hit or we have to move a lot destroys us).
Edited by Eclipsé on 2/17/2013 10:20 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
8480
Ok so we all know I'm the token holy priest on the forums, but shadow's issues are partly my own. They really need to do something about the damage and orb generation, seriously. Unless my guildies are padding, which they do as much as they can for w/e reason, I beat 'em flat out just because of my modifiers. The only time I lose is on multi-dot situations where i cannot pain spam + sear. I do NOT want to be doing more than the designated dps spec; I like my dmg + utility I can bring.

On to the next issue: mobility. No, priests do NOT need to be casting while moving. It is dumb how they have spread this to other classes tbh. As someone already said, with the hit box removal, a hunter does not need to be able to just move all day long with no setbacks. Locks to a lesser extent are right there with them. Shamans had the luxury with SWG...and it should stay like that.

Insanity: It is looking more and more mandatory. That needs to change as well. Being pigeon-holed into one talent is against the set design. I find it sad that as holy, I have more options, albeit very few, but more i have.

Hell, with the HF being baseline instant, they buffed my pretty !@# quite nicely. With the PI change, it looks like I might be changing my talent from ToF to PI on short burn fights as I can stagger PI with Lust to keep myself, basically, in a perma state for a good length.

Please buff shadow. I just hope that don't do something dumb and put a buff in to just nerf the piss out of the spec again because of an 'oversight'.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
Oh, they are nerfing us pre-emptively in expectation of that OP trink from ToT :).

I hear you about movement, but it's a tricky one. Blizzard cannot easily revert the changes to locks and hunters. But letting them stay mobile while Shadow is forced to turret out channels and hard-casts constantly is impossible to balance.

The only answer seems to be to make Shadow mobile too, at least for the short term.
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90 Human Priest
12730
02/17/2013 10:08 PMPosted by Eclipsé
I'm *really* not going to trawl the net/3rd party sites before making a thread.

It's not like it's some random site... it's the successor to Shadowpriest.com and receives almost a million views a month: and it's ONLY about Priests. It's where our BiS lists and (conservatively) 95% of our Theorycrafting for Shadow come from.

If you're looking for the best Priest information you really should be frequenting it.

Since Althor seems to be MIA our own @TwintopTahoe has implemented the new mechanics, cleaned up the coding and updated the action priorities list in the Shadow Priest module for Simcraft.
Edited by Woaden on 2/17/2013 10:50 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
12730
@FlayerInTheMist (Blackmorgrim) just made a pretty good summary post:
http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3016&start=30#p26107

Blackmorgrim:
No, the burst we can get with PI now is pretty spectacular. Many people we quick to accept that PI was overpowered by ToF or DI in many situations.

However, one of the major reasons that was true was because it didn't stack with BL. If we were able to do this all along, PI would have been the #1 talent for every single target fight.

If 290k dps burst is nice, just wait. Shadow will have the ability to burst for much higher than that, more in the realm of 400k. Even higher if you're a troll.

SW:I also gets pretty powerful in these high haste situations, especially since DP's duration stays relatively constant, whereas SW:I constantly gets shorter as we gain haste.

We needed single target buffs and we got em.


All that math stuff (you know for people who want concrete numbers) can be found somewhere over there. The short of it is that we're looking solid for PvE atm.
Edited by Woaden on 2/17/2013 10:57 PM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/17/2013 10:43 PMPosted by Woaden
It's not like it's some random site... it's the successor to Shadowpriest.com and receives almost a million views a month: and it's ONLY about Priests. It's where our BiS lists and (conservatively) 95% of our Theorycrafting for Shadow come from.


I used to visit the former, but generally now use EJ a lot. Still - if you want to use a site like that and say 'oh, but this interesting post/parse/discussion happened there, go check it out', thats cool :).

But if you want to say 'oh, but this argument on this site disagrees with you so UNLESS you already read that site, you shouldn't post anything' ...well, then we disagree.

02/17/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Woaden
All that math stuff (you know for people who want concrete numbers) can be found somewhere over there. The short of it is that we're looking solid for PvE atm.


I checked out that thread. The discussion in there isn't concrete at all. It's about burst versus sustained, which is going to be cirucmstancial. He also mentions a buff to DP (what buff?) and assumes that SApps are working properly (by the looks of it they aren't).
He also assumes legendary meta and 4t15 (I've never been a fan of 'oh, you are balanced when you have your 4tier!).

I've trawled it and can find very little concrete mathy information that isn't outdated or due to some weird blip in sims. All I've found is:
- If you use PI during lust
- are a troll
- SApps work for you (a few posts on those forums saying they aren't fixed properly)
- you have legendary meta
- You take the new mandatory Insanity thing (and it doesn't get nerfed)
- You have good RNG
- you have 4T15 and are on a semi stationary fight
you will be somewhere in the middle.

Am I misunderstanding?

Can you give me a link to the mathy stuff that involves situations where the majority of the above aren't true, in a median gear level and on a mobile, semi-single target fight?

Not trying to get at you, just looking for a little reassurance that all the negative feedback on the PTR is wrong and that this one post is right.
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