Fixing Shadow Priests ...The 'S' Word ?

90 Blood Elf Priest
5620
Since we aren't allowed to say 'scaling' anymore apparently, according to GC.

So, by the looks of the testing on the PTR - the new Insanity mechanic and the Mind Blast buff put us pretty much where we are on live. Bottom of the barrel performance (as a class) on single target dps, with lower-midrange performance when we can multidot and pad the numbers.

I know that Spriests were OP in PvP, but I don't think that they should be punished for an entire 2 tiers in PvE for it.

The easiest 2 fixes would be:

- Insanity becomes:
Every time your Damage Over Time effects crit, your Mind Blast cooldown is reduced by x seconds.
- Glyph of Mind Flay
Your Mind Flay can now be cast while moving, but no longer snares the target.

Boom. Scaling and mobility issues fixed.


the problem with the glyph is that it would make it mandatory(which appearently GC doesnt like) and would make it better than the warlock version(we all know how much love lock has this xpac). If they did something like add a baseline passive that while moving and channeling mind flay you mana started to tick down or you lost movement speed than it would be something they MAY go with but not likely. The sad thing is even if they allowed movement while mind flaying it would but us at the middle of the pack at best and force ever Spriest to pick SW:I.
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90 Human Priest
12075
02/17/2013 11:10 PMPosted by Eclipsé
Not trying to get at you, just looking for a little reassurance that all the negative feedback on the PTR is wrong and that this one post is right.

GC's Posts > Patch Notes > PTR in general. There's still tuning that's been announced that isn't actually up on the PTR. OH and we've been changing on nearly a daily basis for the last week and a half at least. Even discussion from 4 Days ago is out of date now.

for PvE generally it's gone like this:
* PoM, Renew, Flash Heal ~43% nerf
* DP buff > DP nerf > DP slight buff = 3-4k per tick buff over live
* Insanity 100% dmg at DPx1 > Insanity 33% dmg per SO used on DP (so 100% @ DPx3) = substantial single target DPS boost
* Glyph of Mind Spike no longer applies to FDCL procs = smoother FDCL / DI build rotation, slight damage nerf
* PI stacks with Heroism and now has 10% increased dmg = True Dmg CD
* MB dmg buffed by ~20%
* LMG is going to be very nice for us

As of now I wish they'd bump up Mind Sear's (comparatively) low damage and I'd like to see Shadow Apps become more reliable than they currently are on the PTR especially considering that's our T15 2pc and 4pc. Other than that we're sitting in a pretty good place theoretically.

Outside of that I'd like a non damaging SO generator ( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7923872984 ), Revert PoM Renew and FH nerf for PvE for soloing / leveling reasons and nerf Beastslaying so there's at least a chance non Trolls can rank in 5.2. If I had to make a Christmas list that is... :P
Edited by Woaden on 2/18/2013 12:51 AM PST
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100 Tauren Priest
10730
Question: Why would anyone pop PI during Lust though? You would easily push urself beyond the 1.0 cast time and waste the cd. Ok, I WOULD easily do that as i'm already sitting at the haste cap. Does shadow have that much of trouble hitting the cap atm or something?
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Since we aren't allowed to say 'scaling' anymore apparently, according to GC.

So, by the looks of the testing on the PTR - the new Insanity mechanic and the Mind Blast buff put us pretty much where we are on live. Bottom of the barrel performance (as a class) on single target dps, with lower-midrange performance when we can multidot and pad the numbers.

I know that Spriests were OP in PvP, but I don't think that they should be punished for an entire 2 tiers in PvE for it.

The easiest 2 fixes would be:

- Insanity becomes:
Every time your Damage Over Time effects crit, your Mind Blast cooldown is reduced by x seconds.
- Glyph of Mind Flay
Your Mind Flay can now be cast while moving, but no longer snares the target.

Boom. Scaling and mobility issues fixed.


the problem with the glyph is that it would make it mandatory(which appearently GC doesnt like) and would make it better than the warlock version(we all know how much love lock has this xpac). If they did something like add a baseline passive that while moving and channeling mind flay you mana started to tick down or you lost movement speed than it would be something they MAY go with but not likely. The sad thing is even if they allowed movement while mind flaying it would but us at the middle of the pack at best and force ever Spriest to pick SW:I.


Well, the glyph would be mandatory in PvE but in PvP, you'd have to choose between the extra mobility or the slow (and since Mind Flay is easily interruptible, I would guess that a lot of PvPers would avoid the glyph). As long as it's not mandatory for both PvE and PvP, I doubt that it would be much of a problem.
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
02/18/2013 05:23 AMPosted by Ponderous
Question: Why would anyone pop PI during Lust though? You would easily push urself beyond the 1.0 cast time and waste the cd. Ok, I WOULD easily do that as i'm already sitting at the haste cap. Does shadow have that much of trouble hitting the cap atm or something?

It's not really a big deal since your DoTs would be ticking ridiculously fast and Mind Flay wouldn't be capped.
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100 Undead Priest
10715
02/17/2013 09:17 PMPosted by Eclipsé
I'd hate to pop your bubble, but if you think the development team isn't buffing Shadow Priest damage in PvE because they are afraid of the PvP ramifications, then you are sorely mistaken.


What other reason could there be?

I'd *hate* to think that they consider it fine that a class with only 1 dps spec is only close to the median *if* apparitions work properly (lets say...50% of the time), if there are adds and if they have good RNG.

If they do then I can only assume that the guy in charge of Elemental Shaman is now in charge of Shadow Priests.


I'm saying that PvP isn't stopping them. This is why buffs to Mind Blast and PI are coming in.
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90 Human Priest
12075
02/18/2013 05:23 AMPosted by Ponderous
Question: Why would anyone pop PI during Lust though? You would easily push urself beyond the 1.0 cast time and waste the cd. Ok, I WOULD easily do that as i'm already sitting at the haste cap. Does shadow have that much of trouble hitting the cap atm or something?

10% damage increase as well as stupid fast DoT ticks. We're going to have to completely rethink what our Haste breakpoints are for +DoT ticks around LMG, BL and PI. Whatever it comes down to it's going to be very interesting.

Skill cap will be raised with these changes imo. Correctly utilizing all of the new things is going to make a huge difference.
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100 Tauren Priest
10730
02/18/2013 10:20 AMPosted by Woaden
Question: Why would anyone pop PI during Lust though? You would easily push urself beyond the 1.0 cast time and waste the cd. Ok, I WOULD easily do that as i'm already sitting at the haste cap. Does shadow have that much of trouble hitting the cap atm or something?

10% damage increase as well as stupid fast DoT ticks. We're going to have to completely rethink what our Haste breakpoints are for +DoT ticks around LMG, BL and PI. Whatever it comes down to it's going to be very interesting.

Skill cap will be raised with these changes imo. Correctly utilizing all of the new things is going to make a huge difference.


Aye, I've been watching the PI changes and watching for the math on PI vs ToF, as mentioned in another thread. That 10% boost is really attractive to have on demand....and it will even out with ToF if the fight goes over 4 mins, ie. 2 applications of the buff rather than the sub 20% buff.

If, and when, it becomes available, throw up a thread with the numbers Woaden
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90 Human Priest
12075
02/18/2013 03:41 PMPosted by Ponderous
If, and when, it becomes available, throw up a thread with the numbers Woaden

I will be passing along Twintop's math as soon as everything gets settled essentially :D

As I've said already the estimates are looking promising.

You can follow Twintop on Twitter @TwintopTahoe or his blog http://warcraft.twintop-tahoe.com/ for the primary source.
Edited by Woaden on 2/18/2013 4:18 PM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/18/2013 12:49 AMPosted by Woaden
As of now I wish they'd bump up Mind Sear's (comparatively) low damage and I'd like to see Shadow Apps become more reliable than they currently are on the PTR especially considering that's our T15 2pc and 4pc. Other than that we're sitting in a pretty good place theoretically.


These are two of the biggies that sadly I don't think will even get looked at until 6.0 :|
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90 Human Priest
12075
02/18/2013 05:01 PMPosted by Eclipsé
These are two of the biggies that sadly I don't think will even get looked at until 6.0 :|

Well in the same thread that GC announced the 20% MB buff he had already posted they were considering buffing both Mind Sear and Mind Blast. They quickly decided to buff MB it seems, but have yet to talk about a Mind Sear buff.

I hope they do.

As for Shadow Apps: they have to make them good. If they're still... handicapped then it will really mess up our T15 2 and 4pc.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
20010
Im sorry woaden but you are wrong Sp are not in a good spot. First off the only reason we are competitive on some fights right now is because of one chessy mechanic TOF, without it we would only be middle of the pack on multi target fights and bottom in single target. 75% uptime on elegon 55%uptime on spirit kings 65% uptime on garalon 60%uptime on emperor. Thats over 12% dmg on elegon just from this one talent. Try doing a multitarget fight without tof and see where you stand in dps #'s. It will be the middle of the pack. They need to nerf Tof to make us competitive in single target dps.

SP are a class that should excel in multitarget fights but we are only competitive in those fights because of TOF. If tof got nerfed they would need to buff us across the board to make up competive. With a tof nerf they could buff our dots so we could excel in multi target and it would buff our single target as well. TOF is the reason we are beign held back. Every competitiive sp abuses it to do decent dps without it dps is horrible. And by horrible i mean middle of the pack on multi target when we should inherently be higher due to our dot class. Nerf TOF buff dots and its a wash in multitarget and buff to single target.

You said in one of your posts that insanity is a big single target buff. I beg to differ if u have tried it on the ptr your would know its not. 6 seconds of a buff to mind flay causes you to push back mb procs and refreshing dots and if u refresh dots or use mb proc it causes insanity to be very marginal. Try it out, it might look like a buff on sims but in game it feels and plays different. You cant stand still for 6 seconds casting only flay it doesnt work that way. No boss is like battletron u cant sit there and do nothing but cast u have to move and delaying refreshing of dots and procs is a dps loss that insanity doesnt make up for. Try it on the ptr and tell me you feel different.

The t15 2 and 4 piece are good if they work good on all fights but what is that going to do for us in t16? They are going to have to completly overhaul our class in 4.4 if all of a sudden we cant extend our dots with teir bonuses. Having two straight teir sets with a dot extenting mechanic is wrong. They are going to have to bake it into our skills eventually could u imagine having to cast swp and vt 3 times as much as you will in T15. NO. They are way off base with our class right now the need to stop with the dot extending teir bonuses wrap it into a talent. Fix tof cheese and buff us right. No bandades, no dot extending teir bonuses no cheesy tof!
Edited by Rothspriest on 2/18/2013 7:18 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
12075
While that was eloquent and all...

Why would I try a fight that caters to ToF without it? I'm going to use the most optimal talents for whatever fight I'm doing. I think it's fantastic design that some talents are better depending on the fight type. It keeps it interesting imo.

You never have to delay MB after using MF:I, you just cut off the last MF:I cast that was 'extended' off of DP before it ended to cast MB. Yeah for high movement single target fights SW:I won't be a great talent choice, instead you'll take Mindbender. Certain talents are less optimal than other choices depending on the fight. You can't really complain when there's always an optimal option.

Refreshing / Maintaining DoTs is something we have to do with regularity. 2 and 4pc bonuses take a decent chunk of time to obtain so we spend ~1/2 a Tier without them. We're certainly not dependent on having super long DoTs.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
20010

Why would I try a fight that caters to ToF without it? I'm going to use the most optimal talents for whatever fight I'm doing.

That is exactly my point TOF is too good!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And without it we are middle of the pack multi target. We should be a strong multi target class with our dots! A broken mechanic is the only thing keeping us strong in something we should excel at. That is a problem. You cant fix single target because it will make multi target so out of whack from one talent!
Edited by Rothspriest on 2/18/2013 8:05 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
20010

You never have to delay MB after using MF:I, you just cut off the last MF:I cast that was 'extended' off of DP before it ended to cast MB. Yeah for high movement single target fights SW:I won't be a great talent choice, instead you'll take Mindbender. Certain talents are less optimal than other choices depending on the fight. You can't really complain when there's always an optimal option..


Mindbender is not competitive! Look at where we are now, one of the lowest single target class if not the lowest. Your sayinig swi is our single target fix but only when we can stand there and not move? When does that happen? SWI is not a big buff it anything it is a very small buff! No fights are like patchwork anymore. Movement fights are all that they make now.
Edited by Rothspriest on 2/18/2013 8:09 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
20010

Refreshing / Maintaining DoTs is something we have to do with regularity. 2 and 4pc bonuses take a decent chunk of time to obtain so we spend ~1/2 a Tier without them. We're certainly not dependent on having super long DoTs.


SP have always had a dot extender since i can remember pre mop. We have a dot extender now in t14. We will have a better one in t15. How can u honestly think that we dont need one when devs keep putting it on our gear. Do you really think when they take away our dot extending abilities that our set bonuses give us its going to be a smoothe transisition to casting dots alot more again? This is a horrible ideal for back to back tier sets! If we need this mechanic bake it in. 4.4 I bet they bake it in you watch.
Edited by Rothspriest on 2/18/2013 8:14 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
0
SP had a dot extender pre-mop because there were 3 actual DoTs, as opposed to 2 DoTs and 1 "DoT cooldown."

We refreshed 2 dots back then, and we refresh 2 dots now.
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90 Human Priest
12075
That is exactly my point TOF is too good!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And without it we are middle of the pack multi target. We should be a strong multi target class with our dots! A broken mechanic is the only thing keeping us strong in something we should excel at. That is a problem. You cant fix single target because it will make multi target so out of whack from one talent!

It's not broken: it's good under certain circumstances, aka a good talent.

Mindbender is not competitive! Look at where we are now, one of the lowest single target class if not the lowest. Your sayinig swi is our single target fix but only when we can stand there and not move? When does that happen? SWI is not a big buff it anything it is a very small buff! No fights are like patchwork anymore. Movement fights are all that they make now.

It's good for *high* mobility fights. For instance it lines up perfectly with Blade Tempest and unless you're unlucky for every Get Away. Again it's good under certain circumstances, aka a good talent.

SP have always had a dot extender since i can remember pre mop. We have a dot extender now in t14. We will have a better one in t15. How can u honestly think that we dont need one when devs keep putting it on our gear. Do you really think when they take away our dot extending abilities that our set bonuses give us its going to be a smoothe transisition to casting dots alot more again? This is a horrible ideal for back to back tier sets! If we need this mechanic bake it in. 4.4 I bet they bake it in you watch.

SP had a dot extender pre-mop because there were 3 actual DoTs, as opposed to 2 DoTs and 1 "DoT cooldown."

We refreshed 2 dots back then, and we refresh 2 dots now.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/18/2013 07:04 PMPosted by Rothspriest
They need to nerf Tof to make us competitive in single target dps


Careful. With the current track record they are likely to do the first but save the second for next expansion.

02/18/2013 07:37 PMPosted by Woaden
Why would I try a fight that caters to ToF without it? I'm going to use the most optimal talents for whatever fight I'm doing. I think it's fantastic design that some talents are better depending on the fight type. It keeps it interesting imo.


The issue is that I don't think any other class has one talent that inflates their numbers like this. I'm fine with situational talents, but I'm not fine about being 'okay' in one specific niche role and rock bottom in others.

I'm still not 100% convinced we will be well off in 5.2. Without a SA fix and something to help us work better in mobile single target fights where we can't cheese TOF...well, we will see, but I predict us lagging behind the mid-pack and sitting in the back row with the Arms Warriors and MM hunters.
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90 Human Priest
12075
Yep, I'm sure the worst possible outcome will happen.

You've convinced me.
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