Light Liches

63 Draenei Paladin
1680
From Ask CDevs:
Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.


The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence. The primary exception to this rule are liches, as liches bind their souls to a phylactery and then use the phylactery to generate a physical form; this process is why lich bodies look nothing like their mortal bodies, and also why you have to destroy a lich’s phylactery to truly kill them.


It is difficult to say, as there are no known records of undead wielding the Holy Light before the Third War. There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath. Unfortunately, this may be the cause of the Forsaken priesthood's increased attempts at self-destruction; regaining these senses would force the priests to smell their own rotting flesh, taste the decay in their mouths and throats, and even feel the maggots burrowing within their bodies.


Anyone that's not a Broken or Lost One it seems can use The Light due to it being mere willpower.

Benedictus himself stated: "there is only POWER!" He believed that Light was power and as such he could draw this power to it's full extent(even Velen hasn't used the Light in attack to that extent)!

Even a Lich can use the Light.

Infact it's probably much easier for them then it is for normal Undead since the can switch their Shadow connection with Light connection to the Phylactery.

A normal Undead probably would feel their rotting body at all times and be in pain if they replaced the badly done Shadow link between their bodies and souls with a complete link of Light(something a Light Lich could exploit when creating an army of Undead).
Edited by Archpaladin on 2/18/2013 10:09 AM PST
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90 Orc Warlock
10490
My guess is that they would explode from the contradition.

That, or Naaru descend from the heavens to slap them stupid.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
Hmm.

I suppose any school of magic capable of manipulating and sequestering the soul could be used to achieve something approximating lichdom.

The most obvious methods are the Arcane and Fel schools of magic which dabble in soul manipulation and necromancy, but if the Light can be used to preserve and protect the soul, I see little reason it couldn't also be used by a particularly determined priest to preserve a soul within an artifact, relic or holy icon.

That said, you might be more likely to see other schools of magic dabble in pseudo-lichdom, such as Voodoo, shamanism (via the spirit of the wilds, perhaps) and even technological means (consider the Ethereals' state of being) before Light wielders got into the stuff.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
To become a Lich one becomes undead. Necromancy is an Arcane school. Necromancy is not 'Void' or 'Shadow' based, it is arcane based.

And while it may be possible for a Lich to use the Light, remember that it is said that Zeliek could only use it because of how strong his faith was.

Furthermore, the very act of becoming a Lich is corrupting, evil and altogether poisonous. The very creation of one requires Arthas' gift or unholy ground or, as we see in WC3, a powerful fountain of magic, which becomes tainted.

A good person wouldn't become a lich. They may use other magic to gain some sort of approximation to it, such as using voodoo to place their soul into an unliving object, but other magics are less prone to such horrid work.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9145
We know Arcane can do it.

The End Time description for Jaina mentioned her fragment had been bound to Jaina's staff.
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100 Human Paladin
17040
The Light burns away at the necromantic magic that sustains an undead creature, but it does not and cannot replace it.

Infuse an undead creature with too much Light, and you won't get a Light-powered undead thing - you'll get a pile of bones that are no longer animate at all.
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29 Draenei Monk
0
02/18/2013 10:08 AMPosted by Archpaladin
That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne).


Kind of off topic but I just had to comment on this, once again Blizzard forgets their own lore.

The Scarlet Crusade did evil, it wasn't inherently evil. It started out as a benevolent Order and once it fell to corruption those within still zealously believed that their cause was just and good.

And they did good despite all the harm they caused.

As for Arthas being an evil Paladin that's ridiculous, we are shown very clearly in lore how the Light gradually rejects him over time as he falls further and further into darkness.

By the time he was ready to wield Frostmourne he was far from the Light.

As for the Lich channeling the Light argument I don't see it, channeling it through their phylactery should mean nothing, they still have to wield the Light and we've been shown more then enough in game to know Lich's aren't immune to torture just because you have to destroy their phylactery to kill them.

They should experience the same pain as any Undead bordering on hysterical insanity if they attempted to embrace and channel the Light at all times like a Paladin does.
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100 Night Elf Druid
6055
There were undead paladins in Icecrown, they used corrupted paladin attacks. Though Blizzard might simple have screwed up in that regard. I think they were in Scourgeholm.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9145
The Light burns away at the necromantic magic that sustains an undead creature, but it does not and cannot replace it.

Infuse an undead creature with too much Light, and you won't get a Light-powered undead thing - you'll get a pile of bones that are no longer animate at all.


I think the Forsaken contradict this.
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63 Draenei Paladin
1680
Obviously an Undead can't switch the Shadow with Light just by Channeling it.

It's much more complecated(all magic is I think).

For a Lich to survive replacing his Shadow connection with Light he'd first have to use Arcane as a secondary binding to the Phylactery then remove the Shadow connection then preform a binding with Light then remove the Arcane binding.

What's to stop a Light based Lich from using the Light to reanimate rotting corpses then using their torment(from feeling and tasting the rotting of their body) to enslave them?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
We know Arcane can do it.

The End Time description for Jaina mentioned her fragment had been bound to Jaina's staff.


Necromancy is a subschool of Arcane magic. As per the books in dalaran.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
02/18/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Archpaladin
For a Lich to survive replacing his Shadow connection with Light he'd first have to use Arcane as a secondary binding to the Phylactery then remove the Shadow connection then preform a binding with Light then remove the Arcane binding.


Liches are not inherently shadow based, they're arcane based. Necromancy has zero ties to The Void, the parallel to The Light. Liches CAN use the Light in theory, except they've committed themselves to such evil to do so that one could not fathom how they could justify their transformation and, thus, retain the faith to use The Light.

02/18/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Archpaladin
What's to stop a Light based Lich from using the Light to reanimate rotting corpses then using their torment(from feeling and tasting the rotting of their body) to enslave them?


... The fact that The Light does not work that way. Again, Necromancy has no ties to the Light/Void duality, it is purely an arcane school. You don't 'infuse' the undead with the Light, just like you don't infuse the undead with The Void.
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63 Draenei Paladin
1680
02/18/2013 11:38 AMPosted by Melyria
... The fact that The Light does not work that way. Again, Necromancy has no ties to the Light/Void duality, it is purely an arcane school. You don't 'infuse' the undead with the Light, just like you don't infuse the undead with The Void.


Yet official sources say "the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies." (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3313064613?page=3#49)

This is only normal Scourge Undead(who would enslave their minions with Shadow).

Liches are most likely Arcane based(of course Arthas and Tichondrius's power power is mostly Shadow based and since they raised Kel'Thuzad obviously he is Shadow and Arcane based).

Arcane and Light combined is called Divine magic according to Magic Schools ingame and so there is the possibility of their being Divine based Undead just as their are the Scourge's Spellshadow and Plague(Shadow/Nature fungal magic) based Undead.

They would justify their use of Light the same way Benedictus did: "There is only POWER!"

They would be just as strong if not stronger in the Light as Benedictus was(He created huge waves of Light which not even Velen could do).
Edited by Archpaladin on 2/18/2013 12:01 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
17040
02/18/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Archpaladin
What's to stop a Light based Lich from using the Light to reanimate rotting corpses then using their torment(from feeling and tasting the rotting of their body) to enslave them?


The Light can be used to strengthen, protect, heal and resurrect people. It can be used to create light and generate constructs. It can be used to harm undead and demons.

It can't do everything, though. It can't be used to open portals, or control minds, or slow time... or create undead. That's simply not something it does.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
Yet official sources say "the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies." (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3313064613?page=3#49)


Dark is not Void. Fel Magic is 'dark' and it is a corruption of the Arcane.

Liches are most likely Arcane based(of course Arthas and Tichondrius's power power is mostly Shadow based and since they raised Kel'Thuzad obviously he is Shadow and Arcane based).


Again, Fel magic is an Arcane corruption. It has no basis in The Void. Arthas, Tichondrius, Frostmourne ad Kel'thuzad never touched the Void magic.

Arcane and Light combined is called Divine magic according to Magic Schools ingame and so there is the possibility of their being Divine based Undead just as their are the Scourge's Spellshadow and Plague(Shadow/Nature fungal magic) based Undead.


Game mechanics are game mechanics. Divine magic is considered 'Holy' by lore standard and not arcane.
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90 Orc Warlock
10490
02/18/2013 12:00 PMPosted by Egrem
It can't do everything, though. It can't be used to open portals, or control minds, or slow time... or create undead. That's simply not something it does.
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63 Draenei Paladin
1680
Some Death Knight's use unholy magics which have both Fel and Shadow magic(a spell is called Shadow Infusion and some of the spells even look like Shadow magic)

Dare I mention Lady Deathwhisper uses Shadow bolt, Kel'thuzad uses Shadow Fissure Novos the Summoner summons Shadow weilding Undead so there are quite alot of magic using Undead who use Shadow in ability even if none of them were created from it.

Would it be accurate to say the Fungal Plague magic(which isn't the same as the Magic that raises the Undead from the dead) is Shadow/Nature based magic?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
02/18/2013 12:25 PMPosted by Archpaladin
Some Death Knight's use unholy magics which have both Fel and Shadow magic(a spell is called Shadow Infusion and some of the spells even look like Shadow magic)


False, Unholy magic is considered to be an arcane school. To "Schools of the Arcane" books in Dalaran specifically mention the manipulation of disease, blood, frost and necromancy as being elements of arcane magic.

Source: http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Schools_of_Arcane_Magic_-_Necromancy

Dare I mention Lady Deathwhisper uses Shadow bolt, Kel'thuzad uses Shadow Fissure Novos the Summoner summons Shadow weilding Undead so there are quite alot of magic using Undead who use Shadow in ability even if none of them were created from it.


Shadow bolt is not the same as The Void. The Void is drawing upon the misery, hatred, horror and fear of an individual and making it manifest, just like The Light is compassion, joy and bravery made manifest.

Shadowbolt is an arcane based spell.

Would it be accurate to say the Fungal Plague magic(which isn't the same as the Magic that raises the Undead from the dead) is Shadow/Nature based magic?


No, the plague is necromatic in nature. This means it is arcane.

You are equating "Shadow" as the parallel to "The Light". This is not true. "The Light" is opposite "The Void".

When a mage throws a fireball, the ability is using fire but it is, at its core, an arcane spell. Because it uses arcane theory to cast. Likewise, a warlock throwing shadowbolt does the exact same thing, except it is shadow.

Shadow =/= The Void. And because of that, you can't say "If they use Shadow, they can just swap it for The Light". The Void uses shadow magic but arcane magic can use shadows too.

That is the very point of the "Shadow Mage" subtype. They use arcane magic to harness shadows, not The Void.
Edited by Melyria on 2/18/2013 12:33 PM PST
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63 Draenei Paladin
1680
The Twisting Nether is outright refered to as The Void(http://www.wowpedia.org/Void).

Shadow(Mind magic) is between The Void(Nether) and Light(Willpower).

Arcane on Azeroth came from the Well of Eternity.

Where does Arcane come from(unless for some ridiculous reason it is Void)
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