.... You're planning on doing THAT blizz?

90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
They did. At first they were trading for said resources and the NE where ok with the Orcs until, you know, Wrathgate and such. Then they refused to trade but the Tauren were going to negotiate with the NE but the whole group was ambushed with the intent to pin it on Garrosh and the Orcs. It worked. Now they aren't talking. Especially with full blown war going on. Aside from the other forested area north of Org there isn't any other place the Orcs can get any real resources.


Incorrect. There was near open warfare from the end of the first Hyjal in WC3 to just before the end of BC and through Wrath until Wrathgate. The time from the end of BC to Wrathgate, there was some trading done. Blizzard probably had the Night elves stupidly agree to let the orcs mine, log and hunt in exchange of the orcs for not killing Night elves. Anyways, trade was cut off and the orcs got pissed off because they didn't have access to the goodies of Ashenvale anymore. And since trade was cut off, the orcs just started taking again and the Night elves killing the loggers, hunters and miners.

The orcs never tried to live off of their own resources or develop the trade contacts within the Horde. When trade with the Night elves and the negotiation to possibly renew it failed, the orcs never left them alone, their response was to go in and take it by force. It didn't matter that Ashenvale wasn't theirs, they wanted the resources so they were going to take it. That's what needs to change. The orcs respecting a nation's boundaries and not just pushing in when they are told 'No.'
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
The Horde and Alliance will work together when something bigger, nastier, and more powerful than either of them alone comes along. The opening cinematic illustrates this perfectly albeit on a far smaller scale. They'll work together defeat a way bigger threat. Doesn't mean that they're friends or that they'll stay friend when it's over. They just have survival to worry about.


The problem is the Horde keeps sticking a dagger in the Alliance's back while working with the Alliance then whines and moans about their innocence when the Alliance complains about being stabbed. The Horde is allowed to fight both the big bad guy and the Alliance at the same time. There's something wring with that. Starting with the Alliance's agreement to work with the Horde.
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
2665
This is the third expansion in a row where the Horde and Alliance are fighting over nothing else but stupid hate.

I could go for a breather. Especially since I've lost all faith in Blizzard writing up any good reasons to go to war.


Stop having the goddess damned Horde attacking the Alliance and leave the Alliance land they've taken for starters. If they would stop attacking and work with the land and resources they already had, ASK instead of attacking, and not attack if told 'no. Piss off', then something might be done.


Oh get over it it goes both ways.

Not even just with land, either.

The Alliance legitimately doesn't want some Horde races to exist. At all. Mainly Orcs and Undead.

And it's never going to work that way. Both those races have done very important, helpful things on Azeroth at this point and both the Horde and Alliance are necessary.

Stupid kids fighting over stupid things.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warrior
13525


Stop having the goddess damned Horde attacking the Alliance and leave the Alliance land they've taken for starters. If they would stop attacking and work with the land and resources they already had, ASK instead of attacking, and not attack if told 'no. Piss off', then something might be done.


Oh get over it it goes both ways.

Not even just with land, either.

The Alliance legitimately doesn't want some Horde races to exist. At all. Mainly Orcs and Undead.

And it's never going to work that way. Both those races have done very important, helpful things on Azeroth at this point and both the Horde and Alliance are necessary.

Stupid kids fighting over stupid things.


Kids go to your rooms...
Reply Quote
42 Human Hunter
3090
02/18/2013 08:41 PMPosted by Kynrind
Incorrect. There was near open warfare from the end of the first Hyjal in WC3 to just before the end of BC and through Wrath until Wrathgate. The time from the end of BC to Wrathgate, there was some trading done. Blizzard probably had the Night elves stupidly agree to let the orcs mine, log and hunt in exchange of the orcs for not killing Night elves. Anyways, trade was cut off and the orcs got pissed off because they didn't have access to the goodies of Ashenvale anymore. And since trade was cut off, the orcs just started taking again and the Night elves killing the loggers, hunters and miners


Not quite. They did leave them be and the Tauren ask to negotiate on the Orcs behalf. Once Garrosh got in the seat he didn't ask and just sent forces to take it. Garrosh didn't care and the younger Orcs didn't care. Their land is a barren desert. Harsh and barely able to support plant or animal life. The Orcs are a Warring and Military people. Hunting and killing is their thing. They barely have farming skills so why do you think they have knowledge on how to terraform an entire region. Plus no one offered to teach them such things or how to better their farming capabilities.

The problem is the Horde keeps sticking a dagger in the Alliance's back while working with the Alliance then whines and moans about their innocence when the Alliance complains about being stabbed. The Horde is allowed to fight both the big bad guy and the Alliance at the same time. There's something wring with that. Starting with the Alliance's agreement to work with the Horde.


Solution, keep a bigger dagger at the Horde's back. They've known for a while that the Horde, as a whole and not based on individual trustworthy instances, is not to be trusted to just walk away. It's just as much their fault for thinking that the next time they won't stab you in the back.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
Oh get over it it goes both ways.

Not even just with land, either.

The Alliance legitimately doesn't want some Horde races to exist. At all. Mainly Orcs and Undead.

And it's never going to work that way. Both those races have done very important, helpful things on Azeroth at this point and both the Horde and Alliance are necessary.

Stupid kids fighting over stupid things.


The only fights the Alliance has ever started are the ones the dwarves started in AV, Bael Modan and the one in Mulgore. Every other fight has been the Horde attacking the Alliance. On Alliance land. Ashenvale is the best example of that. The orcs were not asking and were not respecting the national boundaries of the Kaldorei. Nor were the forsaken doing the same in Hillsbrad or the Arathi Highlands. Both of those races have been just laughing, saying 'screw you!' and just taking what they want.

It's not a stupid fight when you're defending against a foe that is -always- attacking you. It's not stupid to think that when a big baddie threatens the world, that the Horde won't take the opportunity to attack the Alliance again like it did in Cata. The fact the Horde did help in several cases does not give them the right, justification or privilege to attack the Alliance just because they feel they want what the Alliance has.

If Blizzard didn't want the Alliance races to hate the orcs and forsaken so much, they shouldn't have let those races get away with so much !@#$. At this point both the orcs and forsaken deserve to be wiped out because they Are both a very real short and long term threat to the safety of Azeroth and the Alliance. Blizzard wrote them into a position that they are legitimately and rightfully HATED. If they were a PvE threat, both would be well on the way to extermination. Instead we're going to be faced with the very real prospect that the Alliance is going to have to choke down the fact neither race is going to suffer as they should. That's going to be shoved down our throats.
Reply Quote
02/18/2013 09:09 PMPosted by Kynrind
Blizzard wrote them into a position that they are legitimately and rightfully HATED.


This is true Horde-side as well.

The writing on both sides presents a very good case for hating the Horde/Alliance respectively.

It's going to be very difficult to amend that after so long.

But, quite frankly, I don't see a future without faction conflict being at all plausible or enjoyable.

Not after how brutal this war has been on both sides.
Reply Quote
80 Blood Elf Warrior
7750
02/18/2013 09:09 PMPosted by Kynrind
On Alliance land. Ashenvale is the best example of that. The orcs were not asking and were not respecting the national boundaries of the Kaldorei. Nor were the forsaken doing the same in Hillsbrad or the Arathi Highlands


Hillsbrad and Arathi are part of Lordaeron, and Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken.

At this point both the orcs and forsaken deserve to be wiped out because they Are both a very real short and long term threat to the safety of Azeroth and the Alliance.


You are just proving the point of this war, you hate the Horde and the Horde hates you. So... you kill each other.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
Not quite. They did leave them be and the Tauren ask to negotiate on the Orcs behalf. Once Garrosh got in the seat he didn't ask and just sent forces to take it. Garrosh didn't care and the younger Orcs didn't care. Their land is a barren desert. Harsh and barely able to support plant or animal life. The Orcs are a Warring and Military people. Hunting and killing is their thing. They barely have farming skills so why do you think they have knowledge on how to terraform an entire region. Plus no one offered to teach them such things or how to better their farming capabilities.


Oh yippee, that is so nice of them.. Pfft. That lasted until Garrosh said 'The hell with this. We'll just kill them and take ALL of it!' So what if the desert is a harsh and mostly barren land. It can be lived in and the orcs -could- have learned to farm or fish. It's not impossible to learn. They could have -asked- the forsaken and Blood elves for teachers.

A part of getting international respect is respecting a nations boundaries and not violating them even when that nation tells you to leave it alone.

Solution, keep a bigger dagger at the Horde's back. They've known for a while that the Horde, as a whole and not based on individual trustworthy instances, is not to be trusted to just walk away. It's just as much their fault for thinking that the next time they won't stab you in the back.


Except the Alliance is too honorable and upright to stab the Horde in the back. It's sickening to think that the Alliance wouldn't do something underhanded like that. instead the Alliance is Lawful Stupid Good and the Horde knows it would never stab the Horde in the back. So having a dagger at the Horde's back is a worthless gesture since the Alliance, under human rule, will never ever stick it in the Horde's back.
Reply Quote
58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/18/2013 09:26 PMPosted by Eldos
Hillsbrad and Arathi are part of Lordaeron, and Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken.


Hillsbrad is debatable (and one will probably spring up now) but Arathi in no way belongs to the Forsaken in any way. Stromgarde was it's own, independant kingdom, like Gilneas, Dalaran, Aerie Peak, etc.
Reply Quote
02/18/2013 09:28 PMPosted by Kynrind
So having a dagger at the Horde's back is a worthless gesture since the Alliance, under human rule, will never ever stick it in the Horde's back.


You overestimate the nobility of the Alliance, me thinks.
Reply Quote
42 Human Hunter
3090
Oh yippee, that is so nice of them.. Pfft. That lasted until Garrosh said 'The hell with this. We'll just kill them and take ALL of it!' So what if the desert is a harsh and mostly barren land. It can be lived in and the orcs -could- have learned to farm or fish. It's not impossible to learn. They could have -asked- the forsaken and Blood elves for teachers.

A part of getting international respect is respecting a nations boundaries and not violating them even when that nation tells you to leave it alone.


You don't understand. Their entire culture is based around Shamanism, Battle, and Hunting. Killing things and dealing with the land as is is a part of their culture. They wouldn't know how to ask about those techniques. You're assuming that Orcs could transition from a Hunter/Gatherer culture into a farming culture with ease. Not with them. They are highly aggressive until they become older, fighting and killing is literally written into their genes, and they are entirely about the short term relief again until they're older. Essentially a Spartain culture. You tell me how they're going to act when trade is cut off, they have a gung-ho Warchief, and the resources they want are literally right across the river.

02/18/2013 09:28 PMPosted by Kynrind
Except the Alliance is too honorable and upright to stab the Horde in the back. It's sickening to think that the Alliance wouldn't do something underhanded like that. instead the Alliance is Lawful Stupid Good and the Horde knows it would never stab the Horde in the back. So having a dagger at the Horde's back is a worthless gesture since the Alliance, under human rule, will never ever stick it in the Horde's back.


Then they are just as much at fault for letting the Horde push them about like a school bully. They have SI:6. They better learn to use them effectively.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
6365
02/18/2013 09:26 PMPosted by Eldos
On Alliance land. Ashenvale is the best example of that. The orcs were not asking and were not respecting the national boundaries of the Kaldorei. Nor were the forsaken doing the same in Hillsbrad or the Arathi Highlands


Hillsbrad and Arathi are part of Lordaeron, and Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken.

At this point both the orcs and forsaken deserve to be wiped out because they Are both a very real short and long term threat to the safety of Azeroth and the Alliance.


You are just proving the point of this war, you hate the Horde and the Horde hates you. So... you kill each other.


Lorderon consists of Tristfall Glades, Eastern and Western Plaguelands. Also the majority of Silverpine forest. That is it, everywhere else belonged to their own separate kingdoms.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
02/18/2013 09:26 PMPosted by Eldos
Hillsbrad and Arathi are part of Lordaeron, and Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken.


Incorrect. Hilllsbrad belonged to the old Kingdom of Lordaeron, but the forsaken have never held all of that dead realm.They are missing the WPL and EPL. The only claim they have to Hillsbrad and Southshore is one of force. The Arathi Highlands have never -ever- been a part of the kingdom of Lordaeron. It's a part of the continent, but it's never been a part of the kingdom of Lordaeron.

02/18/2013 09:26 PMPosted by Eldos
You are just proving the point of this war, you hate the Horde and the Horde hates you. So... you kill each other.


After all the orcs and forsaken have done, how do they not deserve to be wiped out? They have repeatedly (the orcs more than the forsaken) tried to wipe out the Alliance and take over the world, have violated one treaty after another, show no respect for national boundaries or sovereignty. The Horde is the one that starts 90% or more of all conflicts. Not the Alliance, but the Horde. It's proven itself to not be worthy of trust.
Reply Quote
99 Troll Hunter
13645
02/18/2013 09:49 PMPosted by Kynrind
They have repeatedly (the orcs more than the forsaken) tried to wipe out the Alliance and take over the world

So... Twice?

Once while they were under the effects of the Blood Curse, and once under Garrosh (The Forsaken being under Garrosh).

02/18/2013 09:49 PMPosted by Kynrind
have violated one treaty after another, show no respect for national boundaries or sovereignty. The Horde is the one that starts 90% or more of all conflicts. Not the Alliance, but the Horde. It's proven itself to not be worthy of trust.

The Alliance has done the same thing.

They're broken treaties and peace times, they've used petty reasoning to bring up hostilities, invaded Horde territory with an expansionist mindset, and fired upon a neutral party.

Neither side is as good as the other.
Reply Quote
80 Blood Elf Warrior
7750
02/18/2013 09:49 PMPosted by Kynrind
Incorrect. Hilllsbrad belonged to the old Kingdom of Lordaeron, but the forsaken have never held all of that dead realm.They are missing the WPL and EPL. The only claim they have to Hillsbrad and Southshore is one of force. The Arathi Highlands have never -ever- been a part of the kingdom of Lordaeron. It's a part of the continent, but it's never been a part of the kingdom of Lordaeron.


My mistake, I remember reading somewhere that everything north of wetlands and south of Quel'Thalas, was considered as Lordaeron. But it seems that source was wrong.

02/18/2013 09:49 PMPosted by Kynrind
After all the orcs and forsaken have done, how do they not deserve to be wiped out? They have repeatedly (the orcs more than the forsaken) tried to wipe out the Alliance and take over the world, have violated one treaty after another, show no respect for national boundaries or sovereignty. The Horde is the one that starts 90% or more of all conflicts. Not the Alliance, but the Horde. It's proven itself to not be worthy of trust.


Well then, I think you mean that the Horde should be wiped out not Orcs and Forsaken because there are examples of Orcs and Forsaken that are not like that. Granted good Forsaken are few and far between, but the Frostwolf clan is probably the best example of a non aggressive Orc clan, they seem pretty content with just living in Alterac Valley.

On a different note, why does no one want the other Horde races destroyed? The friend of my enemy is my enemy, right?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
You don't understand. Their entire culture is based around Shamanism, Battle, and Hunting. Killing things and dealing with the land as is is a part of their culture. They wouldn't know how to ask about those techniques. You're assuming that Orcs could transition from a Hunter/Gatherer culture into a farming culture with ease. Not with them. They are highly aggressive until they become older, fighting and killing is literally written into their genes, and they are entirely about the short term relief again until they're older. Essentially a Spartain culture. You tell me how they're going to act when trade is cut off, they have a gung-ho Warchief, and the resources they want are literally right across the river.


Then that culture needs to change. By internal pressure or to have changed shoved down their throats at sword point. It cannot stay as it is or this problem will crop up sooner than later.

The orcs could easily move from a hunter/gather society to a farming one if they put their minds and backs to it. The blood lust is kind of written into their genes, but the culture is not. That is changeable. The Spartans culture and attitude wasn't written in their genes, it was purely a cultural issue.

Then they are just as much at fault for letting the Horde push them about like a school bully. They have SI:6. They better learn to use them effectively.


The problem with that is Blizzard doesn't allow the Alliance to be effective. In a real world, the orcs would have been dealt with in a more permanent manner. Either by killing them all or breaking them up into small groups and teaching them a different culture. Starting with the youths. Either way, they would be dealt with and if they kept attacking, eventually they would just be killed.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warrior
16790
02/18/2013 08:49 PMPosted by Draile
The Alliance legitimately doesn't want some Horde races to exist. At all. Mainly Orcs and Undead.


Right, because of "petty conflicts".

Definitely not because both those races are invested in the complete subjugation if not outright extermination of the races of the Alliance.

Honestly, at this point it'd make as much sense for the Alliance to align with the Burning Legion against the Horde. Both factions want the Alliance dead, and both factions will stab the Alliance in the back once the other is taken care of. At least with the Legion you'd think the Alliance would see the inevitable betrayal coming and not be taken by surprise for a third/fourth time.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
02/18/2013 10:00 PMPosted by Eldos
On a different note, why does no one want the other Horde races destroyed? The friend of my enemy is my enemy, right?


The Blood elves tauren and trolls and to an extent, the goblins, are much less of a problem. It's the orcs and forsaken that are the main source of aggression and destruction in the Horde. They can all be reasoned with and aren't responsible for the sheer amount of death, destruction and mayhem that the orcs and forsaken are.
Reply Quote
02/18/2013 09:55 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
Neither side is as good as the other.


Hear, hear!
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]