.... You're planning on doing THAT blizz?

90 Draenei Monk
18635
I doubt factions will ever go anywhere. We'll just be bowing down to Lord Anduin as he gets half of us killed trying to negotiate with the Legion.

Oh, and the draenei might possibly get 5 seconds of screen time.
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42 Human Hunter
3090
Then that culture needs to change. By internal pressure or to have changed shoved down their throats at sword point. It cannot stay as it is or this problem will crop up sooner than later.

The orcs could easily move from a hunter/gather society to a farming one if they put their minds and backs to it. The blood lust is kind of written into their genes, but the culture is not. That is changeable. The Spartans culture and attitude wasn't written in their genes, it was purely a cultural issue.


02/18/2013 10:01 PMPosted by Kynrind
The problem with that is Blizzard doesn't allow the Alliance to be effective. In a real world, the orcs would have been dealt with in a more permanent manner. Either by killing them all or breaking them up into small groups and teaching them a different culture. Starting with the youths. Either way, they would be dealt with and if they kept attacking, eventually they would just be killed.


Could you switch from the tendencies and norms of your culture? That you were raised from birth to know and act upon without thinking?

It's not that easy. It would take years upon years, generations upon generations to get a cultural shift. Orcs had to go through years of Lethargy just to be able to reembrace Shamanism.

What you describe is what Thrall and the older Orcs were trying to do. Shift the culture of the Orcs from a Spartan culture into a more peaceful one. They ran into the same problem. The young Orcs wanted battle and glory. They heard the old tales of War and Glory but they didn't listen to the negative that the Elders were teaching. That fighting and war is not worth it in the end. Now the current generation of Orcs will learn the hard way that the Elders were correct. War is not worth it.
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90 Human Warrior
16790
What you describe is what Thrall and the older Orcs were trying to do. Shift the culture of the Orcs from a Spartan culture into a more peaceful one. They ran into the same problem. The young Orcs wanted battle and glory. They heard the old tales of War and Glory but they didn't listen to the negative that the Elders were teaching. That fighting and war is not worth it in the end. Now the current generation of Orcs will learn the hard way that the Elders were correct. War is not worth it.


And then what?

The next generation goes through the same thing again because the elders half-!@# their teachings like Thrall?

Something has to give. If their culture cannot be salvaged, it should be replaced. If not by the Orc's own volition than by that of the Alliance.
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42 Human Hunter
3090
And then what?

The next generation goes through the same thing again because the elders half-!@# their teachings like Thrall?

Something has to give. If their culture cannot be salvaged, it should be replaced. If not by the Orc's own volition than by that of the Alliance.


You can't replace a people's culture. It has to change within them.

The teaching weren't blotched. They were essentially telling teenagers not to be teenagers. Of course they wouldn't listen. Remember this is only one to two generations of Orcs after they got off the Demon blood. Cultural shifts naturally happens after many many years of investment. Which is what Thrall tried to plant into the Orc with the integration of the Tauren. Admittedly this did not work so well as some of the younger Tauren have taken to liking war a whole lot.

But you have a point which brings up the next part. To make the culture shift in the Orcs as fast as it did after the Second War, something drastic needs to happen to them as a whole. Like another Lethargy period or something that essentially breaks them completely. Something to put the people so low that they become open to a new path. Now admittedly again the quick shift in culture after the Second War was only a rediscovery. Don't know how long something like this would take.
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Dramatic cultural shift amongst orcs is pending with the coming rebellion against Garrosh and his doctrine, it seems to me.

Personally I hope they dissolve the Warchief position entirely and return to a Clan based structure.

The Orcs were always at their most stable when organized into autonomous Clans and not ruled over by a singular all powerful dictator.
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94 Goblin Warlock
9210
02/18/2013 11:05 PMPosted by Hammerlóck
To make the culture shift in the Orcs as fast as it did after the Second War, something drastic needs to happen to them as a whole. Like another Lethargy period or something that essentially breaks them completely. Something to put the people so low that they become open to a new path. Now admittedly again the quick shift in culture after the Second War was only a rediscovery. Don't know how long something like this would take.


But the Lethargy didn't actually force a cultural shift. As soon as they shook it off they were basically back to business as usual.
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42 Human Hunter
3090
But the Lethargy didn't actually force a cultural shift. As soon as they shook it off they were basically back to business as usual.


It did. It allowed for the reintegration of Shamanism into the culture as a whole. That was the shift. Not the attitude or tendencies of the Orcs. They found strength in the Shamanism and regained their natural tendencies. Before that Lethargy, Shamanism was all but dead within Orc culture. Very few on Azeroth still practiced it.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12085
02/18/2013 11:22 PMPosted by Brukk
The Orcs were always at their most stable when organized into autonomous Clans and not ruled over by a singular all powerful dictator.


Yeah and let's look at how well that turned out. Hi kil'jaeden. Hi Ner'zul. Hi Gul'dan. :P

02/18/2013 10:09 PMPosted by Lena
We'll just be bowing down to Lord Anduin as he gets half of us killed trying to negotiate with the Legion.


Now THAT is not true. Everyone's best friend Marty Stu will not only successfully negotiate with the legion, but he will uncorrupt Sageras and all of the Burning Legion. Because that is how like-able he is.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
You can't replace a people's culture. It has to change within them.

The teaching weren't blotched. They were essentially telling teenagers not to be teenagers. Of course they wouldn't listen. Remember this is only one to two generations of Orcs after they got off the Demon blood. Cultural shifts naturally happens after many many years of investment. Which is what Thrall tried to plant into the Orc with the integration of the Tauren. Admittedly this did not work so well as some of the younger Tauren have taken to liking war a whole lot.

But you have a point which brings up the next part. To make the culture shift in the Orcs as fast as it did after the Second War, something drastic needs to happen to them as a whole. Like another Lethargy period or something that essentially breaks them completely. Something to put the people so low that they become open to a new path. Now admittedly again the quick shift in culture after the Second War was only a rediscovery. Don't know how long something like this would take.


Oh please. It can change in a few years easily. Drastic cultural changes happen very fast because of inside or outside pressure. If Thrall had had the spine to force it, it would have happened. Saying it would take generations is silly and only gives the orcs that much longer to continue to be a severe pain in the !@# to the Alliance.

Look at how fast they went from the shamanistic culture to the bloodthirsty Horde culture. Within one to two years that happened. A radical shift that has left a deep imprint across two worlds. So do not say it can't be done when it can. And it has to be done damned quick or this current war will happen again when the Horde attacks the Alliance over some perceived slight or desire for something the Alliance has. Again.
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100 Tauren Druid
8635
02/18/2013 11:50 PMPosted by Mashedorbake
Yeah and let's look at how well that turned out. Hi kil'jaeden. Hi Ner'zul. Hi Gul'dan. :P


Which were organized under the rule of one dictator.
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100 Tauren Warrior
11015
02/18/2013 06:15 PMPosted by Melyria
The next expansion is likely a Burning Legion one. It is best not to divide yourselves with petty infighting when the bowels of the Twisting Nether open up and spill hellfire across your planet.


"they found that together, they were strong" yeah, it sucks how accurate all this is, maybe they'll splice us together next expac for something different, but then how the hell do you explain pvp then.
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100 Human Paladin
9400
This is the third expansion in a row where the Horde and Alliance are fighting over nothing else but stupid hate.

I could go for a breather. Especially since I've lost all faith in Blizzard writing up any good reasons to go to war.


Hear, hear!
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100 Human Paladin
10330
From the sounds of it, it doesn't sound like any "ARMY OF THE LIGHT WE ARE ALL ONE GIANT FORCE!!! FGKDGKLD" It just sounds like all the Horde races are united and fighting the legion and all the Alliance races are united and fighting the legion, it will probably be no different than BC or Wrath. We will probably have a skirmish here and there as well.
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100 Troll Hunter
12165
Who cares about the forest. Alliance are our enemies let's just keep kicking their a.. like w always have.
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42 Human Hunter
3090


Look at how fast they went from the shamanistic culture to the bloodthirsty Horde culture. Within one to two years that happened. A radical shift that has left a deep imprint across two worlds. So do not say it can't be done when it can. And it has to be done damned quick or this current war will happen again when the Horde attacks the Alliance over some perceived slight or desire for something the Alliance has. Again.


1. You should already know that they got that way so quickly due to Demon blood. Yeah turns out that Burning Legion manipulation and consumption of their blood turns people into raving murderous lunatics.

2. Again you are putting idealized human standards onto a functioning and established culture which focuses on Hunting and Fighting.

The basis of Orc culture didn't change before or after the Legion's influence. It'd still take many generations or something drastic to happen. Example of drastic events are already given which are ingesting Legion blood or the Lethargy period. Look at how long it took Native Americans to adjust to modern English standards. It took almost 100 years for them to shift their culture completely. Orcs are only on year 10 at max.
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100 Draenei Paladin
12505
02/19/2013 11:01 AMPosted by Hammerlóck
The basis of Orc culture didn't change before or after the Legion's influence.


Complete abandonment of elements, focus of fighting for it's own sake as a method of honour, complete drop of hunting as an element of their society.
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42 Human Hunter
3090
02/19/2013 11:18 AMPosted by Arkturas
Complete abandonment of elements


Where? Shamans still play an important part in the culture.

02/19/2013 11:18 AMPosted by Arkturas
focus of fighting for it's own sake as a method of honour


That has not changed. It was there before an after.

02/19/2013 11:18 AMPosted by Arkturas
complete drop of hunting as an element of their society.


Again where? That's how they get their meat and fur.
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100 Draenei Paladin
12505
Where? Shamans still play an important part in the culture.


Didn;t for a few decades, and still doesn't hold any sort of position as it used to. Shamanism is strictly second or third tier in Orc culture now.

That has not changed. It was there before an after.


They fought against the ogres, but that was survival. The honour of fighting came from defending one's tribe.

Now fighting in and of itself is how one gains honour. Which eliminates the desire for peace.

Again where? That's how they get their meat and fur.


Where are the noteworthy orc hunters who gain much honour for their skill? Right, don't exist anymore.

Only warriors.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360


Look at how fast they went from the shamanistic culture to the bloodthirsty Horde culture. Within one to two years that happened. A radical shift that has left a deep imprint across two worlds. So do not say it can't be done when it can. And it has to be done damned quick or this current war will happen again when the Horde attacks the Alliance over some perceived slight or desire for something the Alliance has. Again.


1. You should already know that they got that way so quickly due to Demon blood. Yeah turns out that Burning Legion manipulation and consumption of their blood turns people into raving murderous lunatics.

2. Again you are putting idealized human standards onto a functioning and established culture which focuses on Hunting and Fighting.

The basis of Orc culture didn't change before or after the Legion's influence. It'd still take many generations or something drastic to happen. Example of drastic events are already given which are ingesting Legion blood or the Lethargy period. Look at how long it took Native Americans to adjust to modern English standards. It took almost 100 years for them to shift their culture completely. Orcs are only on year 10 at max.


1. They were that was just from the Legion manipulation before they ever drank the demon blood. They only drank that before they assaulted Shattrath. After they had already formed the Horde. The fact they changed from a hunter/gatherer shamanistic society to the Horde in 1-2 years before drinking demon blood is a sign that they can change fast if they want to.

2. It doesn't have to be a human culture they model off of, just as long as it's something other than what they are now. Tauren is just about perfect. Highly spiritual and shamanistic. Much like what the orcs used to be. As it is, all humans used to be hunter/gathers, so there is precedent for a cultural shift of that magnitude.

The culture undertook a MASSIVE shift when the Legion showed up. So far that shift seems to have sunk deep since the rebirth of shamanism doesn't seem to have taken root that well. Young orcs are contemptuous of shamans. They seek to follow the Horde culture and see that as the one to uphold and follow. You seem to think that a culture cannot change fast when that is plainly not true. High elves changed in a space of 1-2 years into the Blood elves. The Draenei underwent a shift to accept shamans, the Darkspear to decidedly non standards troll behavior.

Many cultural shifts do happen slowly, but events can force changes in less than a year if they are strong enough. It doesn't always have to take a long time to do.

Where? Shamans still play an important part in the culture.


Not anymore. The younger orcs are contemptuous of shamans, seeing them as weak and pathetic.
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42 Human Hunter
3090


1. You should already know that they got that way so quickly due to Demon blood. Yeah turns out that Burning Legion manipulation and consumption of their blood turns people into raving murderous lunatics.

2. Again you are putting idealized human standards onto a functioning and established culture which focuses on Hunting and Fighting.

The basis of Orc culture didn't change before or after the Legion's influence. It'd still take many generations or something drastic to happen. Example of drastic events are already given which are ingesting Legion blood or the Lethargy period. Look at how long it took Native Americans to adjust to modern English standards. It took almost 100 years for them to shift their culture completely. Orcs are only on year 10 at max.


1. They were that was just from the Legion manipulation before they ever drank the demon blood. They only drank that before they assaulted Shattrath. After they had already formed the Horde. The fact they changed from a hunter/gatherer shamanistic society to the Horde in 1-2 years before drinking demon blood is a sign that they can change fast if they want to.

2. It doesn't have to be a human culture they model off of, just as long as it's something other than what they are now. Tauren is just about perfect. Highly spiritual and shamanistic. Much like what the orcs used to be. As it is, all humans used to be hunter/gathers, so there is precedent for a cultural shift of that magnitude.

The culture undertook a MASSIVE shift when the Legion showed up. So far that shift seems to have sunk deep since the rebirth of shamanism doesn't seem to have taken root that well. Young orcs are contemptuous of shamans. They seek to follow the Horde culture and see that as the one to uphold and follow. You seem to think that a culture cannot change fast when that is plainly not true. High elves changed in a space of 1-2 years into the Blood elves. The Draenei underwent a shift to accept shamans, the Darkspear to decidedly non standards troll behavior.

Many cultural shifts do happen slowly, but events can force changes in less than a year if they are strong enough. It doesn't always have to take a long time to do.

Where? Shamans still play an important part in the culture.


Not anymore. The younger orcs are contemptuous of shamans, seeing them as weak and pathetic.


Even so it was Legion manipulations. The Orcs thought this the direct words of their ancestors and if they were POed about the Draneai(sp) then that would've made them really riled up. It's like with the Crusades.

The BE/HE split isn't cultural. It's political. Political changes can happen almost instantly. As a culture they all are the same still. Same norms, language, and symbols. Plus you are repeating what I already said. If the outside force is strong enough then of course cultural change would happen rapidly. Otherwise it'll be a very slow process. I've been saying that for three posts now.
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