.... You're planning on doing THAT blizz?

100 Draenei Paladin
13790
If the outside force is strong enough then of course cultural change would happen rapidly. Otherwise it'll be a very slow process. I've been saying that for three posts now.


Thus steps in the Alliance.
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42 Human Hunter
3090
02/19/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Arkturas
Thus steps in the Alliance.


Perhaps. It could also be argued that the Alliance could make or has made it worse. I won't say my opinions on that matter but it solely depends on how the aftermath of the Siege of Orgrimmar plays out.
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
02/19/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Arkturas
If the outside force is strong enough then of course cultural change would happen rapidly. Otherwise it'll be a very slow process. I've been saying that for three posts now.


Thus steps in the Alliance.

You know what's fun? Despite the systematic campaign of assimilation which the residential school system pushed in Canada for almost 100 years, the first nations are still around.

As much as the Alliance fanbase likes to wave its bits around while going on about their white man's burden, they wouldn't accomplish a damned thing even if they tried.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
You know what's fun? Despite the systematic campaign of assimilation which the residential school system pushed in Canada for almost 100 years, the first nations are still around.

As much as the Alliance fanbase likes to wave its bits around while going on about their white man's burden, they wouldn't accomplish a damned thing even if they tried.


I will have you know that I am blue. And is as much as the Horde fanbase likes to pretend that the Horde can change, the best predictor of future performance is and always will be prior performance.
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
I will have you know that I am blue. And is as much as the Horde fanbase likes to pretend that the Horde can change, the best predictor of future performance is and always will be prior performance.

And past performance has shown that the Alliance is utterly incapable of doing anything intelligent when trying to change the Horde, and that only the Horde can effect any sort of meaningful change, but that it needs time and peace for that to happen.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
02/19/2013 01:27 PMPosted by Kellick
And past performance has shown that the Alliance is utterly incapable of doing anything intelligent when trying to change the Horde, and that only the Horde can effect any sort of meaningful change, but that it needs time and peace for that to happen.


In other words the Horde isn't going to try and change, and has not tried. You know, seeing as they've never tried for peace.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
Perhaps. It could also be argued that the Alliance could make or has made it worse. I won't say my opinions on that matter but it solely depends on how the aftermath of the Siege of Orgrimmar plays out.


If the Alliance had tried to teach the orcs something different, you could say that. but the majority of orcs were just kept in the internment camps. There was no attempt to train them with other skills.
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
In other words the Horde isn't going to try and change, and has not tried. You know, seeing as they've never tried for peace.

Do you enjoy lying through your teeth or do you really not know any better?

http://www.wowpedia.org/Old_Hatreds_-_The_Colonization_of_Kalimdor

"Now that the demon curse was ended, the Horde changed from a warlike juggernaut into more of a loose coalition, dedicated to survival and prosperity rather than conquest. Aided by the noble tauren and the cunning trolls of the Darkspear tribe, Thrall and his orcs looked forward to a new era of peace in their own land."

Oh look, the Horde was able to change given peace time.

"The peace between the orcs and humans was shattered by the arrival of a massive Alliance fleet in Kalimdor."

Welp, so much for that.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
We already have an example of a successful Alliance effort to change an Orc.

What's his name? Kal'el?

"Now that the demon curse was ended, the Horde changed from a warlike juggernaut into more of a loose coalition, dedicated to survival and prosperity rather than conquest. Aided by the noble tauren and the cunning trolls of the Darkspear tribe, Thrall and his orcs looked forward to a new era of peace in their own land."


Survival and prosperity that they didn't know how to get without war because they're still cultural primitives.
Edited by Vyrin on 2/19/2013 1:36 PM PST
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
02/19/2013 01:35 PMPosted by Vyrin
Survival and prosperity that they didn't know how to get without war

Ah yes, how primitive of them to get attacked by a genocidal, power mad dictator.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
02/19/2013 01:34 PMPosted by Kellick
"Now that the demon curse was ended, the Horde changed from a warlike juggernaut into more of a loose coalition, dedicated to survival and prosperity rather than conquest. Aided by the noble tauren and the cunning trolls of the Darkspear tribe, Thrall and his orcs looked forward to a new era of peace in their own land."


Survival and prosperity through conquest of Kalimdor. You know, those harpies, Quilboar, etc, weren't feeling too good about this peace.

But even ignoring that, because frankly, there is no way to get along with those races, even though I would point out it's not going to do anything to decrease the lust for battle in any way, you still run into the problem that even had Daelin not shown up on Kalimdor, and even if Thrall were actually willing to try and mold the orcs into a better culture, it wouldn't make any difference.

The orcs don't see anything wrong with wanton violence. They don't seem to grasp that effort on their part could solve their problems, when effort exerted against others, IE, war, will solve their problems for them.

And because Blizzard is patently unable to get out from their biases, they can't writ the realistic reaction of all and sundry to the Horde, which would not be positive in any means, but instead proclaim how all the non petty people accommodate the Horde.

Ah yes, how primitive of them to get attacked by a genocidal, power mad dictator.


You seem to be under the impression that Daelin's reactions were unwarranted.
Edited by Arkturas on 2/19/2013 1:45 PM PST
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
Also, a point of clarification. I am not arguing that the Alliance has to be the one to fix the orcs, though I think it could be possible.

I am arguing to Hammerlocks proposal that absent and outside force, the orcs change will require hundreds of years. We have an outside force, it's called the Alliance going 'get your !@#$ together, and work with us, or we're not going to survive the Burning Legion, and even if we do, we're not going to be pleased with you at all."

Where that last line is delivered in the damaged streets of Orgrimmar to the leaders of the Rebels, telling them that they're receiving, whether they've earned it or not ( I would infinitely prefer it to be earned), a period of grace from the Alliance in which they will leave them alone, and even help them. Said period of grace expires if the Horde continues to harass and attack the Alliance.

See, no 'white man's burden'. Just one power to another that it's not going to stand for it's %^-* any longer.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Ah yes, how primitive of them to get attacked by a genocidal, power mad dictator.


Oh hey look, a thing that didn't happen.
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
02/19/2013 02:22 PMPosted by Vyrin
Ah yes, how primitive of them to get attacked by a genocidal, power mad dictator.


Oh hey look, a thing that didn't happen.

Well duh, I was employing sarcasm, I didn't genuinely argue Daelin's genocidal campaign on the Orcs, Darkspear and Tauren and usurping of Theramore somehow made the Orcs primitive

Although I'm glad you agree your position was moronic.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/19/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Kellick
Well duh, I was employing sarcasm, I didn't genuinely argue Daelin's genocidal campaign on the Orcs, Darkspear and Tauren and usurping of Theramore somehow made the Orcs primitive


No, I mean no genocidal, power mad dictator ever attacked them. Someone who has since had his position vindicated by history attacked them.
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100 Draenei Paladin
13790
Eh, primitive isn't the right word.

Culturally moronic, maybe.
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100 Troll Hunter
14885
Also, a point of clarification. I am not arguing that the Alliance has to be the one to fix the orcs, though I think it could be possible.

You act as if the Orcs need fixing.

When they don't.

Yes, Garrosh needs to be kicked out. But it's explicitly the younger generation of Orcs who support him. The same Orcs both the Alliance and Horde will be fighting and killing in the Siege.
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
02/19/2013 02:31 PMPosted by Vyrin
Someone who has since had his position vindicated by history attacked them.

Oh hey look, a thing that didn't happen.
Edited by Kellick on 2/19/2013 2:50 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
02/19/2013 02:50 PMPosted by Kellick
Someone who has since had his position vindicated by history attacked them.

Oh hey look, a thing that didn't happen.


Tis' true. Theramore as a thing that happened has had next to no impact on the story.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
You act as if the Orcs need fixing.

When they don't.

Yes, Garrosh needs to be kicked out. But it's explicitly the younger generation of Orcs who support him.


How do you not see "young generations of Orcs are always warmongers" as a problem that needs fixing?
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