.... You're planning on doing THAT blizz?

99 Troll Hunter
13645
02/19/2013 11:50 PMPosted by Gandred
Amends for the 1st and 2nd wars, of course. That they didn't want to be forgiven or pitied is irrelevant to them never trying to fix up what they did, they just wanted to cut all ties and ignore that part of their history.

Those amends were payed when the Orcs were thrown in Internment Camps.

"Okay, you've defeated, humiliated, and demasculated us, as if we weren't humiliated enough by the fact that we were corrupted. Just leave us alone now, please."
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
Those amends were payed when the Orcs were thrown in Internment Camps.

"Okay, you've defeated, humiliated, and demasculated us, as if we weren't humiliated enough by the fact that we were corrupted. Just leave us alone now, please."


As I recall, they were violently released from their prisons. If they served their sentence and the Alliance up and said "You know what? You guys have been upstanding, and we think we can trust you, go and run free" I'd argue for them having made amends for what they did to the Alliance, as the Alliance forgave them.

As it stands they broke out, killed many guardsmen in the process, demanded high quality land to be ceded by the Alliance to the Horde, then stole a number of ships and fled the Eastern Kingdoms.

I don't consider that amends, or them even trying to make amends. I consider it trying to wipe the slate clean in an effort to avoid doing anything meaningful to repair the damage they caused.
Edited by Gandred on 2/19/2013 11:59 PM PST
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99 Troll Hunter
13645
02/19/2013 11:58 PMPosted by Gandred
As it stands they broke out, killed many guardsmen in the process,

Didn't Thrall say to spare as many people as possible?

02/19/2013 11:58 PMPosted by Gandred
demanded high quality land to be ceded by the Alliance to the Horde

Wait, what?

02/19/2013 11:58 PMPosted by Gandred
then stole a number of ships and fled the Eastern Kingdoms.

It's not like they could build their own ships. They just wanted to leave. They didn't care about the Humans, they just wanted to get out of there and never look back.
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/20/2013 12:00 AMPosted by Pyronaptor
Didn't Thrall say to spare as many people as possible?


Don't remember, don't see the relevance. It was still a prison break designed to prevent the orcs paying for their crimes.

Wait, what?


Take a message to your Alliance. Tell them what happened here this day. Tell them that if they choose the path of peace, they will find us ready to engage in trade and cooperation with them, provided they free the rest of my people and surrender land - good land - for our use. If they choose the path of war, they will find an enemy the likes of which they have never seen. You thought we were strong fifteen years past - that is as nothing to the foe they will face on the battlefield today. You have had the good fortune to survive two battles with my army. You will, I am sure, be able to properly convey the full depths of the threat we will pose to them. - Thrall, Lord of the Clans.

So, basically, "Forget everything that we did, release the guys that rampaged through your kingdoms, surrender parts of your land to us, and we'll be ok. Don't do that, and we'll have a repeat of the 1st/2nd wars."

It's not like they could build their own ships. They just wanted to leave. They didn't care about the Humans, they just wanted to get out of there and never look back.


Only after a magical crow told them to flee. Up until then, Thrall was happy to make war on the Alliance.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
19405
02/19/2013 11:58 PMPosted by Gandred
If they served their sentence and the Alliance up and said "You know what? You guys have been upstanding, and we think we can trust you, go and run free"


I'm pretty sure their sentence was "until death".

Also, if they knew the actual history of the orcs the internment camps would make sense...but they didn't so they should have killed them all.
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99 Troll Hunter
13645
02/20/2013 12:07 AMPosted by Gandred
Don't remember, don't see the relevance. It was still a prison break designed to prevent the orcs paying for their crimes.

Because they're to remain indentured forever, yes?

02/20/2013 12:07 AMPosted by Gandred
So, basically, "Forget everything that we did, release the guys that rampaged through your kingdoms, surrender parts of your land to us, and we'll be ok. Don't do that, and we'll have a repeat of the 1st/2nd wars."

I miss that Thrall. He was open to peace, but didn't take !@#$ from anyone.

Also, that looks like it was before they sailed off to Kalimdor, which means they didn't know Kalimdor existed and couldn't go there.

Again, it's not like they could remain imprisoned forever. I'd still defend Thrall's stance, although I understand if you don't if you're Alliance.

When the Orcs broke free, they no longer had to abide by Alliance rules or orders. That's what the theme of the Horde used to be about - Freedom. From Humans and from Demons.

02/20/2013 12:07 AMPosted by Gandred
Only after a magical crow told them to flee. Up until then, Thrall was happy to make war on the Alliance.

For good reason. All the young Thrall knew about the Humans was his gladiator battles and Blackmoore, as well as what he was told by Grom, Orgrim, and Drek'thar (And before you froth at the mouth over them, they conveyed to Thrall what happened with the Demon Blood).
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/20/2013 12:10 AMPosted by Threeslotbag
I'm pretty sure their sentence was "until death".


Where's this said? I don't think a clear reason was ever given to the internment camps in the long term. I did a little search and people have said Terenas wanted to reform them and make them useful to society, but none of that's sourced either.

02/20/2013 12:14 AMPosted by Pyronaptor
Because they're to remain indentured forever, yes?


Maybe, but I doubt it. I don't think a clear reason is ever given.

I miss that Thrall. He was open to peace, but didn't take !@#$ from anyone.

Also, that looks like it was before they sailed off to Kalimdor, which means they didn't know Kalimdor existed and couldn't go there.

Again, it's not like they could remain imprisoned forever. I'd still defend Thrall's stance, although I understand if you don't if you're Alliance.

When the Orcs broke free, they no longer had to abide by Alliance rules or orders. That's what the theme of the Horde used to be about - Freedom. From Humans and from Demons.


Ok? That's got nothing to do with them trying to make amends. I agree with you that the orcs just wanted to be free, but they did so by trying to wipe the slate clean and ignore that part of their history. They didn't want to accept the punishment they were given for trying to conquer EK, and they didn't want to repair the damage that their war caused, they just wanted everything to be forgotten.

For good reason. All the young Thrall knew about the Humans was his gladiator battles and Blackmoore, as well as what he was told by Grom, Orgrim, and Drek'thar (And before you froth at the mouth over them, they conveyed to Thrall what happened with the Demon Blood).


So, again, not trying to make amends.
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99 Troll Hunter
13645
02/20/2013 12:21 AMPosted by Gandred
Ok? That's got nothing to do with them trying to make amends. I agree with you that the orcs just wanted to be free, but they did so by trying to wipe the slate clean and ignore that part of their history. They didn't want to accept the punishment they were given for trying to conquer EK, and they didn't want to repair the damage that their war caused, they just wanted everything to be forgotten.

That's not a bad thing. The Orcs don't owe anything to the Humans. They had already lost everything - Their home, their pride, their victory, their spoils, all they had was themselves. What else could they do? All they wanted was to be left in peace.
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/20/2013 12:24 AMPosted by Pyronaptor
That's not a bad thing. The Orcs don't owe anything to the Humans. They had already lost everything - Their home, their pride, their victory, their spoils, all they had was themselves. What else could they do? All they wanted was to be left in peace.


I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing either, but it isn't trying to make amends for their actions, which is what I've been saying.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
The interment camps were not a punishment. It was an attempt at rehab. That is where the injustice lies. The Aliance didn't punish ANY orcs, no matter who they were or what they did. Oh, the orcs might not have been happy about being locked up. And they might have recieved really crappy treatment, but that doesn't change the intent behind them. That doesn't change the fact that Terenas and Varian decided to let the orcs off the hook, wholesale.

The Alliance is lucky that they had to sense to not simply let the orcs run free.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9900
02/20/2013 12:33 AMPosted by Cbredbeard
It was an attempt at rehab.


Only in theory.

In practice, the camps were a low-grade prison. There's never been any noted attempt to actually rehabilitate the Orcs within.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
02/20/2013 12:14 AMPosted by Pyronaptor
Because they're to remain indentured forever, yes?


Indentured no. Imprisoned, yes since the ones imprisoned were known mass murderers.

02/20/2013 12:00 AMPosted by Pyronaptor
It's not like they could build their own ships. They just wanted to leave. They didn't care about the Humans, they just wanted to get out of there and never look back.


So they had the right to steal those ships, killing humans in the process (I cannot believe they would have been taken without casualties) and just leave rather than to pay for their actions, to make amends?

I miss that Thrall. He was open to peace, but didn't take !@#$ from anyone.

Also, that looks like it was before they sailed off to Kalimdor, which means they didn't know Kalimdor existed and couldn't go there.

Again, it's not like they could remain imprisoned forever. I'd still defend Thrall's stance, although I understand if you don't if you're Alliance.

When the Orcs broke free, they no longer had to abide by Alliance rules or orders. That's what the theme of the Horde used to be about - Freedom. From Humans and from Demons.


Oh, he took more than !@#$ from people. He demanded land from the Alliance or he promised there would be another war on the scale of the first two. Then in Kalimdor, he butts head against with humans, fleeing like he was, and butts heads with the Night elves. He made amends with humans and some sort of peace, but continued to butt heads with the Kaldorei since he refuses to remove the Horde presence from their land. He was taking their land and resources and didn't give a damn about what the Kaldorei thought. He felt his people wanted it so he pretty much said 'damned the consequences, we're going to take it'.

It's real hard to negotiate in good faith with a race that believes in never admitting they did wrong, or in making amends for their past actions. Especially since there are people who argue that the orcs have a right to do what they do and should not be blamed for mass murder and destruction on a world wide scale.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
02/19/2013 10:08 PMPosted by Draile
Sorry. If a race has tried to wipe out my entire culture and race 3 times now, it's done. I WILL kill them because past history has shown that they WILL try it again if given the chance. There comes a time when enough is enough and it's time to take care of the problem permanently before it comes back to bite you in the !@#. Again. Like it has the previous three times.


And then you are, therefooooooore.....weak in character!


I hope that's sarcasm there. The Alliance can treat the Burning Legion, Qiraji, Scourge, gnolls murlocks, Defias, Twilight cult, Blackrock Horde and any other threat against it the same way, total annihilation, but if it's the Horde suddenly there are different rules and we should just understand the Horde, that a live and let live arrangement can be reached with them as long as the Alliance is willing to forgive and forget the millions of people it's killed, the lands and realms that have been ravaged and destroyed and the most recent war of brutal world wide conquest...

02/19/2013 10:08 PMPosted by Draile
Considering most orcs are following the Warsong approach, you damned well can lump them in with the Warsong. And if you have to be shown why the Warsong's approach is bad, you have some serious issues already. It should already be apparent after reading the story.


Of course they do. The Warsong heir is the Warchief. They have to follow his approach.

Furthermore, it all goes back to Saurfang's letter, which outright told everyone how Garrosh's reign was going to go right since Agmar's Hammer. It doesn't mean the whole race is beyond saving.


Consider this. Garrosh's way was -very- popular. The orcs liked it a lot. Especially the younger generation. He was doing what they wanted. TAKING what they wanted and killing anyone who objected. They didn't care that they were murdering people. Hell, they still don't care. The orcs, most of them, don't see what they are doing as wrong. They will only be sorry in the respect that they were caught and stopped. Given the chance, if their culture doesn't change drastically, they -will- do it again.

02/19/2013 10:14 PMPosted by Raynell
You know, with the way some people speak about the Horde in this thread, one wonders if the orcs magically came out of the computer and slaughtered their families in cold blood, pissed felblood in their Cheerios, and then planted a banner through their couches, all whilst screaming "LOK'TAR OGAR" and cooking Fluffums or Fido over a roast pit.


I'm looking at the Horde as it is presented and at its history. It has a proven history of brutal violence, mass murder and destruction on a world wide scale. As well as a cultural aversion to admitting it was wrong, accepting any blame (it's always the other guy's fault. They were forced to kill the other person because that persons had something they wanted/needed) and seeing what they do as wrong and constantly disrespect their neighbors.
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90 Human Monk
2665
02/19/2013 10:29 PMPosted by Arkturas
So, the exact same genocidal intent we have shown towards Scourge, Qiraji, Burning Legion with it's multitude of races, etc, is....what then?


Those are all factions with alien natures. There's no human element to them; so they are a fallacious example. Besides, we could never fully take out the Scourge or the Legion even if we wanted to.



02/19/2013 11:38 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
And even then, the Orcs were not interested in making amends. They did not want to apologize, but it's not out of pride. They didn't want to be forgiven. They didn't want to be pitied. They knew what they did and they knew they deserved to be thought of as lesser for it. Which is why they just wanted to be left alone by the Humans.


It actually just seems to be a part of Orc culture that they don't apologize for things. It must seem like a fundamentally flawed concept to them or something.
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90 Human Monk
2665
02/19/2013 11:58 PMPosted by Gandred
As it stands they broke out, killed many guardsmen in the process, demanded high quality land to be ceded by the Alliance to the Horde, then stole a number of ships and fled the Eastern Kingdoms.


The alternative was to rot and die in the camps. The Alliance had no intention of releasing them. Heck, they may not have even been allowed to breed.

Furthermore, the Alliance wasn't sure just how intelligent the Orcs were. Antoidas was the only person interested in discovering how advanced their culture was.

By breaking out, Thrall showed the Orc's strength. He also showed their compassion and ability to not go on pointless, murderous rampages.

By taking those ships and leaving, Thrall did help the Alliance out. He stopped the need to have Alliance taxes pay for the camps, and he took his people far away from the humans. In theory, it was a good idea.....until stuff happened.



02/20/2013 12:07 AMPosted by Gandred
Only after a magical crow told them to flee. Up until then, Thrall was happy to make war on the Alliance.


Are you sure he was happy about it?

He likely didn't know Kalimdor existed prior to his vision.



The interment camps were not a punishment. It was an attempt at rehab. That is where the injustice lies. The Aliance didn't punish ANY orcs, no matter who they were or what they did. Oh, the orcs might not have been happy about being locked up. And they might have recieved really crappy treatment, but that doesn't change the intent behind them. That doesn't change the fact that Terenas and Varian decided to let the orcs off the hook, wholesale.


Actually Varian wanted them all killed.

Also, intentions mean *@!#!@%* all compared to reality. The Orcs were miss-treated; kicked when they were down. Thrall was just meant to be one example of how brutal it could get, even if he was an extreme example.



I hope that's sarcasm there. The Alliance can treat the Burning Legion, Qiraji, Scourge, gnolls murlocks, Defias, Twilight cult, Blackrock Horde and any other threat against it the same way, total annihilation, but if it's the Horde suddenly there are different rules and we should just understand the Horde, that a live and let live arrangement can be reached with them as long as the Alliance is willing to forgive and forget the millions of people it's killed, the lands and realms that have been ravaged and destroyed and the most recent war of brutal world wide conquest...


Not sarcasm at all. All of those other races/factions you mentioned are different cases with special treatment. The Burning Legion isn't a race or society, it is an intergalactic group of monstrous demons. The Qiraji have no human quality to them at all; they're puppets of the Old Gods. The Scourge isn't a race, it's a collection of mind-enslaved corpses. Gnolls and Murlocs will never be extinct, they're not unified enough to declare war on anyone. The Defias aren't a race, and being a member of the group isn't grounds for execution. The only Defias we kill are the ones who attack us. Same with the Twilight Cult: we allowed them to preach within the cities until they became violent because we didn't want them to become martyrs. And we never put the Blackrock Horde to annihilation until they marshalled themselves to go on an all out war on Redridge in Cataclysm.

And yes, I meant you had weak character. If you were in a leadership position, you would be a weak leader. A strong leader would recognize where the real fault lies and focus on taking out the leader, Garrosh. A strong leader would not decide to just kill off the entire species because they can't think of a good way to deal with them long-term.



02/20/2013 06:40 AMPosted by Kynrind
Consider this. Garrosh's way was -very- popular. The orcs liked it a lot. Especially the younger generation. He was doing what they wanted. TAKING what they wanted and killing anyone who objected. They didn't care that they were murdering people. Hell, they still don't care. The orcs, most of them, don't see what they are doing as wrong. They will only be sorry in the respect that they were caught and stopped. Given the chance, if their culture doesn't change drastically, they -will- do it again.


All just part of the story. The Orcs were just as emboldened when Thrall's spiritual upheaval did the same thing. It's the fact that they're in a desert and were left hungry that made them lose faith.

Which is what this is to them: a crisis of faith in Shamanism. Garrosh came along and essentially said, "That way is not necessary. My way is better", and the results he achieved with it in Northrend proved him right. It's not that the Orcs need to be "caught", it's that they need to learn about how consequence works so they can actually understand what the Shaman were telling them.
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42 Human Hunter
3090
02/20/2013 07:42 AMPosted by Draile
It actually just seems to be a part of Orc culture that they don't apologize for things. It must seem like a fundamentally flawed concept to them or something.


It is a part of their culture. If there's one thing the Orcs have in spades it's their Pride in their Strength. To admit any kind of weakness such as apologizes for the transgressions of their ancestor is like spitting on your gods. They seriously hold their ancestors to that standard.
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90 Human Monk
2665
02/20/2013 08:05 AMPosted by Hammerlóck
It actually just seems to be a part of Orc culture that they don't apologize for things. It must seem like a fundamentally flawed concept to them or something.


It is a part of their culture. If there's one thing the Orcs have in spades it's their Pride in their Strength. To admit any kind of weakness such as apologizes for the transgressions of their ancestor is like spitting on your gods. They seriously hold their ancestors to that standard.


You make it sound like it's an insane concept.

It's not so much pride for the ancestors as it is reverence. But I don't think it has anything to do with apologizing. I think the concept is just fundamentally flawed to them. It implies they didn't mean to do what they did, even though they did it and it's in the past. Humbling oneself like that is senseless; instead they can make amends by learning from it.

And I kind of agree with it, when you think on it from that perspective. We(in the real world) often go on the idea that we shouldn't care what others think of us, and yet it's a part of our culture to apologize when we transgress. Would it not be more sensible to actually try and make up for our transgression, than to worry more about how it affects the other persons feelings?
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/20/2013 07:59 AMPosted by Draile
The alternative was to rot and die in the camps. The Alliance had no intention of releasing them. Heck, they may not have even been allowed to breed.


Which doesn't disprove my point. They didn't want to make amends, they've never tried to make amends, they didn't want to accept their punishment for trying to destroy humanity. They wanted to wipe the slate clean, and make everyone treat the 1st/2nd wars as if they didn't happen. They didn't want to repair the damage done, they wanted it forgotten.

By breaking out, Thrall showed the Orc's strength. He also showed their compassion and ability to not go on pointless, murderous rampages.


By attacking the prisons, breaking out the prisoners and then threatening a war worse than the previous ones on the Alliance if they didn't surrender land to the Horde.

Yeah, round of applause for Thrall.

By taking those ships and leaving, Thrall did help the Alliance out. He stopped the need to have Alliance taxes pay for the camps, and he took his people far away from the humans. In theory, it was a good idea.....until stuff happened.


The "stuff" being his intent to kill anyone that stood in his way, I suppose.

Are you sure he was happy about it?

He likely didn't know Kalimdor existed prior to his vision.


'Happy' was probably the wrong word. 'Content' is a better one.
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/20/2013 08:15 AMPosted by Draile
Would it not be more sensible to actually try and make up for our transgression, than to worry more about how it affects the other persons feelings?


It does, but the orcs have yet to do anything like that.

After destroying many of the Dreanei on Dreanor, they have yet to try and do anything to benefit the Dreanei people. They've ignored them.

After destroying many of the humans in EK, they have yet to try and do anything to benefit the human people. They've ignored, demanded from, or attempted to wipe the slate clean with them.

The closest thing I've ever seen to the orcs going out of their own way in an official capacity to help the Alliance is in one of those lava zones north of Redridge, where they attack the Blackrock army. And apparently that's because they don't fight honourably, or something.

Who knows, maybe after this war they'll learn something about apologies, and maybe try and do something to repair the damage caused. I'm not holding my breath, though.
Edited by Gandred on 2/20/2013 8:28 AM PST
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100 Troll Shaman
5635
02/19/2013 11:50 PMPosted by Gandred
Amends for the 1st and 2nd wars, of course.

The Alliance obviously got over that though, since there were several instances of successful peace and trade between the Alliance and Horde after those wars.
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