Deeply Flawed PvP Design

90 Night Elf Druid
7150
Don't get me wrong. I PvP and have fun doing it - provided I have decent gear. Getting rolled as a fresh level cap is never fun. Which leads me to my point. WoW has the worst PvP system ever conceived for competitive play. Gear in BGs and arenas should be normalized so that way it plays no factor in a competition. Unless, of course, we don't want the 'best' to be determined by skill.

Having played other online PvP games like WC3, C&C, CS, UT, Quake 3, BF1942, COD:MW3, DoW, etc... I never understood why gear in BGs was never meant to be normalized. It's like starting a round in MW3 with one side packing AK47s, sniper rifles, etc and the other side knives and pistols. You're not really proving you're better. Just better geared.

Removing the ratings requirements in 5.2 is a step in the right direction and hasn't been seen in WoW since S2 back in TBC. It'll go a long way to equality in the field.

Maybe next xpac Blizzard could move to a normalized field of play. Gear shouldn't be the main drive for PvP because it isn't raiding. Defeating your opponent should. The current system though you need better gear to stand a better chance hence why PvP is gear driven with the gear being both the goal and the means to that goal.

A freshly dinged 90 should be able to queue up for a RBG, form an arena, or random BG and compete as well as anyone. We all want bragging rights for who the best is but how can you do that when you have a huge advantage.

At least Blizzard has acknowledged that people starting mid season or bringing in alts are at a huge disadvantage.
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85 Dwarf Monk
8925
Don't get me wrong. I PvP and have fun doing it - provided I have decent gear. Getting rolled as a fresh level cap is never fun. Which leads me to my point. WoW has the worst PvP system ever conceived for competitive play. Gear in BGs and arenas should be normalized so that way it plays no factor in a competition. Unless, of course, we don't want the 'best' to be determined by skill.


Clearly WoW PVP is meant to be competitive.
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02/19/2013 04:03 PMPosted by Killdrix
Clearly WoW PVP is meant to be competitive.

are u bein sarcstic
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85 Dwarf Monk
8925
02/19/2013 04:06 PMPosted by Pozy
Clearly WoW PVP is meant to be competitive.

are u bein sarcstic


Can't tell if srs.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7150
No.

Even if Bliz decided to follow your advice, diffferent classes have different strengths and weaknesses. So if you queue up to a BG or RBG and come across a team with a better composition, you are still going to lose.

Unless, of course, you follow your argument to its conclusion and just have one class with the same available skills.

Oh, and Bliz sends them all PCs with the same specs.

And tucks them in at night so they all have the proper amount of sleep so they can comptete at optimum levels.

/facepalm


What a jackassed and stupid reply. Making a comparison to class comp to gear is pretty ridiculous. Also, Blizzard goes to great lengths to balance PvP in a group setting so in theory every class comp should have a chance of winning. Obviously you have no clue about competitive play. Let's watch football where one team doesn't get pads.

02/19/2013 04:03 PMPosted by Killdrix
Clearly WoW PVP is meant to be competitive.


Well... it sort of is with different arena seasons and PvP rankings... but even if it wasn't it's still a flawed PvP system.
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85 Dwarf Monk
8925
Having played other online PvP games like WC3, C&C, CS, UT, Quake 3, BF1942, COD:MW3, DoW, etc... I never understood why gear in BGs was never meant to be normalized.


02/19/2013 04:03 PMPosted by Killdrix
Clearly WoW PVP is meant to be competitive.


Well... it sort of is with different arena seasons and PvP rankings... but even if it wasn't it's still a flawed PvP system.


Shhhh, don't anyone tell him that the games he's citing are created almost all specifically to be competitively played as Player vs. Player, and that it's core WoW is a PVE game which includes some PVP.

It will blow his mind.
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90 Undead Warlock
7580
If you want "fair" and "competitive" pvp, go play rateds. Non-rated BGs are merely for fun, gearing up, not-so-serious pvp...sure, it sucks gearing up, but it really doesn't take that long.
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02/19/2013 04:07 PMPosted by Killdrix
Can't tell if srs.

mayb
it feels like they've tried to
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90 Night Elf Druid
7150
Shhhh, don't anyone tell him that the games he's citing are created almost all specifically to be competitively played as Player vs. Player, and that it's core WoW is a PVE game which includes some PVP.

It will blow his mind.


Arenas changed the game and made PvP a fairly important aspect of the game. Sure, PvE is emphasized more but it's not some stupid afterthought that you make it out to be.

But so what? That doesn't change the fact that the system is flawed and broken. Just because it doesn't have the same priority as PvE doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed.

02/19/2013 04:18 PMPosted by Jugaa
sure, it sucks gearing up, but it really doesn't take that long.


That's really not true. I don't know why people say that. We must have very different definitions of what a long time is. At least that's the case for getting geared well. I have the blue lv 90 started PvP set (contenders?) on both my druid and hunter now but it blows getting rolled.

From the time you start gearing up to the time you actually have the majority of gear the entire experience sucks because you are having your !@# handed to you. It's not a good experience and it really discourages both new people and PvPing with alts.

Not sure why people are against this unless they want to stay ahead of the curve due to an early start.
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90 Human Priest
15890
It would be really nice if the crafted pvp gear was highly slanted toward resilience with pvp power as an afterthought. While someone in crafted gear wouldn't be able to do good damage or healing, the person in crafted wouldn't end up spending the entire match staring at the spirit healer waiting for the rez pulse. Low damage but not dead would be a lot more fun than mostly dead all the time.
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90 Undead Warlock
7580
02/19/2013 04:30 PMPosted by Kalycto
We must have very different definitions of what a long time is.


A long time would be greater than a week. I guess it depends how much time you have to play each day/week. If you have a couple hours each day, it would be under a week. If you only play a couple times a week, that's not Blizz's fault and they should not change their system because of that... Sometimes even bringing 1 or 2 people, even if from tradechat, will help gear up faster.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7150
A long time would be greater than a week. I guess it depends how much time you have to play each day/week. If you have a couple hours each day, it would be under a week. If you only play a couple times a week, that's not Blizz's fault and they should not change their system because of that... Sometimes even bringing 1 or 2 people, even if from tradechat, will help gear up faster.


Wait, how much gear are we talking about in that time span? Fully decked out or a few pieces?? Or 80%-90% geared? I've PvPed heavily at times on various toons and played several hours a day for a week straight only to get 2-3 pieces.

Sure, if you win the vast majority of your matches then gearing becomes really easy but that's never the case.
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90 Undead Mage
1935
02/19/2013 03:41 PMPosted by Kalycto
Gear in BGs and arenas should be normalized
It really, really shouldn't.

02/19/2013 03:41 PMPosted by Kalycto
A freshly dinged 90 should be able to queue up for a RBG, form an arena, or random BG and compete as well as anyone
They really, really shouldn't.

Basically your point is "screw you players that spent the time & effort to gear up, I am entitled to have what you have". I could not disagree with you more. If you want to know why Blizzard favors a progression based system click this link:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7923993742?page=2#32
Edited by Kiaransali on 2/19/2013 4:42 PM PST
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85 Dwarf Monk
8925
Shhhh, don't anyone tell him that the games he's citing are created almost all specifically to be competitively played as Player vs. Player, and that it's core WoW is a PVE game which includes some PVP.

It will blow his mind.


Arenas changed the game and made PvP a fairly important aspect of the game. Sure, PvE is emphasized more but it's not some stupid afterthought that you make it out to be.

But so what? That doesn't change the fact that the system is flawed and broken. Just because it doesn't have the same priority as PvE doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed.



What I am trying to point out is that your comparison is silly.

You asked why a game which is not inherently designed to be played for competitive PVP can't be as balanced as games whose sole purpose is competitive PVP.

Also, for the most part, the games in question do not have to take PVE balancing into question.

I'm not saying that WoW is an amazingly balanced game, I am just saying it never will be and that anyone expecting it to be will be nothing but sorely disappointed.
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90 Undead Warlock
7580
02/19/2013 04:39 PMPosted by Kalycto
Wait, how much gear are we talking about in that time span? Fully decked out or a few pieces?? Or 80%-90% geared? I've PvPed heavily at times on various toons and played several hours a day for a week straight only to get 2-3 pieces.


Well if you're smart and cap out 4k honor and jp before you even hit 90...you can already have a few pieces right when you ding. That's just smart planning since you know the grind it's going to be... I'm not talking malev pieces, strictly dreadful
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No.

Even if Bliz decided to follow your advice, diffferent classes have different strengths and weaknesses. So if you queue up to a BG or RBG and come across a team with a better composition, you are still going to lose.

Unless, of course, you follow your argument to its conclusion and just have one class with the same available skills.

Oh, and Bliz sends them all PCs with the same specs.

And tucks them in at night so they all have the proper amount of sleep so they can comptete at optimum levels.

/facepalm


All of what you just mentioned has zero relevance to the topic being discussed in the thread.
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85 Dwarf Monk
8925
No.

Even if Bliz decided to follow your advice, diffferent classes have different strengths and weaknesses. So if you queue up to a BG or RBG and come across a team with a better composition, you are still going to lose.

Unless, of course, you follow your argument to its conclusion and just have one class with the same available skills.

Oh, and Bliz sends them all PCs with the same specs.

And tucks them in at night so they all have the proper amount of sleep so they can comptete at optimum levels.

/facepalm


All of what you just mentioned has zero relevance to the topic being discussed in the thread.


Actually, it does.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7150
Basically your point is "screw you players that spent the time & effort to gear up, I am entitled to have what you have". I could not disagree with you more. If you want to know why Blizzard favors a progression based system click this link:


Blizzard has made numerous changes to the game and made getting something easier then previously only to have people who 'worked' for it complain. Also, your 'work' shouldn't serve as a barrier to make a better game that will create a greater experience for all.

That work you talk about gets negated every new season since you will eventually start the grind again. What my changes proposes is eliminating the need to restart the grind. Instead, just focus on fighting players.

Let's say they implemented this change in patch 5.2. How is it really any different then the start of *any* new season? The only difference is more players start on equal footing at the beginning.

Your link has links itself to two actual threads. The second thread doesn't pertain to this discussion since it's a reply to why they can't tier the BGs. In the first thread though he doesn't even consider the possibility of gear normalization - which is funny considering they actively do this for challenge modes so no matter what tier of gear you have your stats will be tuned for the encounter. No matter what gear you have, once you enter a BG each class should have set stats that can easily be fine tuned. Such a change negates his entire argument that if there was no PvP progression people would use higher tier raid gear.

Draxxarri even acknowledges that the truest form of competition is in the tournament realms.

He makes the following statement: "World of Warcraft is a progression game, and getting gear and becoming more powerful is absolutely integral to the experience."

Which is true for PvE but not true for PvP. At least it doesn't have to be. The current need for PvP gear is arbitrary and forced upon the player. Creating normalized gear eliminates this need so players can focus purely on combat and perfecting skills and not getting curb stomped by someone who has more time to play or has played longer.

In fact this solves all sorts of problems such as PvP being used for PvE and attempts at deflating stats for PvP gear to make it less enticing for raiders as an 'alternate' route for progression in raids.

02/19/2013 05:13 PMPosted by Killdrix
Actually, it does.


Actually it doesn't because it's a straw man.

Well if you're smart and cap out 4k honor and jp before you even hit 90...you can already have a few pieces right when you ding. That's just smart planning since you know the grind it's going to be... I'm not talking malev pieces, strictly dreadful


I'm doing that on 3 toons but you get less honor at lower levels so it takes longer. I've spent significant hours PvPing on a fairly well geared disc priest, rogue, and frost mage. Each have about 2400 honor.

Here's the issue... at this lower level where it's easier to get good gear... competition is actually more fun because I'm not getting steamrolled and everyone has similar gear so matches aren't completely lopsided. Priest and rogue are lv 86 so you can't say it's because I am several levels higher owning level 85s and my mage is lv 88.

02/19/2013 04:39 PMPosted by Killdrix
I'm not saying that WoW is an amazingly balanced game, I am just saying it never will be and that anyone expecting it to be will be nothing but sorely disappointed.


I'm not asking for perfection. Just a changes to make it better. Just because it's a PvE game doesn't mean they shouldn't try. The fact is Blizzard is at long last acknowledging the differences with the changes in 5.2. It's a step in the right direction.
Edited by Kalycto on 2/19/2013 5:40 PM PST
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