Topic Deeply Flawed PvP Design
Not just that, but it's a system that rewards the victor with better gear, ensuring that the trend continues. The good get better, the bad get worse, and just about every random BG turns into a steam roll one way or the other as a result.
Edited by Kalycto on 2/19/13 5:56 PM (PST)
Straw man is distorting my original argument, then addressing the new distorted argument, then somehow claiming you've refuted my original argument. By making analogies with class comp/spec and equating it to the inherent problems with gear in PvP IS a straw man. Then trying to be condescending by throwing crap in about holding our hand he really isn't making an argument. I also edited my last reply and responded to your earlier post if you care to reply.
I haven't touched upon this but another downside with the PvP system.
Not just that, but it's a system that rewards the victor with better gear, ensuring that the trend continues. The good get better, the bad get worse, and just about every random BG turns into a steam roll one way or the other as a result.So what's the alternative... reward losing? ANYONE can succeed in BGs with a little effort and the desire to get better. Stop looking for a handout because you are too lazy to gear up and/or learn how to play your class.
He makes the following statement: "World of Warcraft is a progression game, and getting gear and becoming more powerful is absolutely integral to the experience."You are flat out wrong. He specifically said that it applies to PvP as well. Don't take my word for it, click the link that I provided earlier. You are just adding your opinion, which I feel is extremely misguided. More importantly Blizzard doesn't agree with your opinion.
Edited by Kalycto on 2/19/13 9:13 PM (PST)
I did click the link. He makes that argument on the limited belief that if PvP gear doesn't get stronger then people will simply bring in raid gear a few tiers higher - except it won't matter if they normalize your character while within an arena or BG. They've shown us that they can do that via challenge modes already so it isn't a matter of technical limitations.
And guess what? They've shown they can do that in BGs too come patch 5.2 since the lower level brackets will bring everyone up to the highest level (29, 39, 49, 89, etc) by giving everyone the correct modifiers. So your, and his, argument is moot.
So what's the alternative... reward losing? ANYONE can succeed in BGs with a little effort and the desire to get better. Stop looking for a handout because you are too lazy to gear up and/or learn how to play your class.
WTF are you talking about? You can earn your titles, rare mounts, etc. You guys always fall back on that old and weak argument about welfare epics and handouts... the reality is if it was a level playing field you would have a lot tougher competition but you can't have that can you? Since you want to stay at the top any challenges to that position are fought tooth and nail.
Also not everyone can succeed because of the inherent gear gap that arises under the current system and Blizzard has already acknowledged this. That's the whole motivation behind removing ratings requirements for gear in patch 5.2. Seriously go read the patch notes.
Edited by Kiaransali on 2/20/13 4:09 AM (PST)
Well you have leaving a lot of what he said out, specifically:
1. World of Warcraft is a progression game, and getting gear and becoming more powerful is absolutely integral to the experience. I conceptually get why there are players who want “pure competition” in World of Warcraft. Many want it just on principle, while I suspect that others believe that they'd do better in PvP if it was in place. Still, the facts suggest that, barring significant gear disparities, knowledge and execution (skill) trumps gear.
2. I've elaborated on this at length elsewhere, but it boils down to the fact that, even with gear differentials, World of Warcraft PvP can be very competitive. Gear and getting more powerful via gear, is a big part of World of Warcraft, and it isn't likely to be going away for the foreseeable future.
3. All the evidence points to the fact that a majority of players in general like being rewarded for their activities in game, including PvPers. Heck, as I mentioned in the previous lengthy discussion on this topic, the majority of modern pure competition games have borrowed elements from RPGs and implemented progression systems of one sort or another.
I have zero interest in titles and rare mounts. Moreover Blizzard disagrees that this is a "weak argument":
4. While I personally think that they're cool for a lot of reasons, aesthetic only rewards aren't really the best option, because there are power increasing rewards being handed out in PvE that would quickly over-shadow PvP gear if there was no power progression.
Talk about weak arguments. My time is at least as important as yours & as Blizzard has stated they want to reward players that put in the time & effort. It has nothing to do with being afraid of competition... I challenge you to gear up & meet me on the battlefield in equal gear. However I don't believe you are entitled to that gear without earning it.
Also not everyone can succeed because of the inherent gear gap that arises under the current system and Blizzard has already acknowledged this. That's the whole motivation behind removing ratings requirements for gear in patch 5.2. Seriously go read the patch notes.I strongly suggest that you go read them... please show me where they are instituting gear normalization. Wow is a progression based game... and there are many very good reasons why. Your idea is inherently flawed and not a viable option.
Edited by Kiaransali on 2/20/13 7:35 AM (PST)
No, just no. Everyone's time is equally valuable. The players that say they don't have time to gear up are just making excuses... I work 40 hours a week, have a family & even a social life. When I tell them they can gear up in less than 2 hours a week doing arenas they always say "I don't like arenas".
Well sounds to me like they consider themselves special snowflakes & want preferential treatment. As someone that constantly talks about equality & rights I am shocked that you think that some players deserve preferential treatment because they claim (falsely in most cases) that they don't have the time.
No the insults are coming from the players that think they deserve special treatment... the dreaded entitlement mentality once again.
It makes perfect sense. They want players to play their game... players in better gear play more often (but it doesn't take nearly as much time as some claim).
Edited by Kiaransali on 2/20/13 7:47 AM (PST)
Really? Why? But fine, we can run with that. If everyone's time is equally valuable, Blizz should ensure that all of the time people spend in bg's is spent in a fair, equitable conflict based on skill.Go read the other points Blizzard stated (the stuff about why WoW is a progression based game). It's the same stuff I have been saying for months, minus the "snarkiness".
As for why everyone's time is equally valuable it boils down to Opportunity Cost: The cost of any activity measured in terms of the value of the next best alternative forgone (that is not chosen). It is the sacrifice related to the second best choice available to someone, or group, who has picked among several mutually exclusive choices.
I've seen them. Blizzard does, however, pretend to seek input from the playerbase. If everyone just accepted the status quo, nobody would post asking for any changes. Yes, the current situation exists, as you say.
Yes Blizzard is always trying to find that elusive "balance" and has the unenviable task of keeping a diverse player base happy. The OP's ideas would make PvP significantly worse, not better.
Edited by Kiaransali on 2/20/13 8:04 AM (PST)
Do you have something that you didn't just plagiarize right from wikipedia? I'm not very confident in the assumption that a person understands his own argument when I see it stated in this manner. It just shows that you can copy, not that you even understand what you are saying.Seriously? I know what opportuntiy cost is... I imagine half the posters here never even heard off it. I copied the definition for expedience, it doesn't imply that I don't know the meaning. Sometimes you cross the line & this is one of those times.
At any rate, the argument against that position is obvious. Blizzard should avoid, at all costs, making their customers have to choose. That makes their decision the poor one, in terms of opportunity cost; they could choose to avoid annoying their players, and the accompanying resentment.Blizzard has explained in much detail why a progression system is the best system available. Best does not mean perfect... no system is perfect. However ideas like the OP's are inherently flawed and simply not viable, for the reasons articulated earlier in this thread & in my thread explaining the gear system in PvP.
I don't know you, Fae/Kia. You were never anyone I dealt with. You are a virtual avatar, on an online forum, to me. Were you a student of mine in the real world, I think we both know what the expedience would have cost you, and your expulsion would be just.This isn't a term paper, it's a forum. I correctly applied the definition for the topic at hand & that is all you should be concerned with. As usual you are instead focusing on something unrelated & making spurious accusations that I don't understand the meaning of words that I use (just like you have falsely accused me of lying about BG experiences).
As for "copying someone else's work" the Blizzard responses to the topic at hand that I have cited closely mirror what I have been saying for a very long time. Thus it is basically citing a source to support my opinions on the subject. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that & in fact it is infintely more credible than the half-baked, baseless opinions that you often see in this forum.
I agree with many of the topics of this thread. Pvp has changed a lot through the years of WoW. But I feel that every patch and every expansion has made it worse and worse. This game has become so easy to play since it was released.
Take vanilla pvp. How hard was pvp gear to obtain? How hard is it to obtain now? Having done the whole grand marshal rank 14 thing back in the day, I think pvp was soooo much better then compared to now. Sure rank 14 was impossible for 95% of people to get but at least it meant more and the rewards were so much more unique. Now you can go join bgs, farm honor for a week snd have a full set of gear for next to no work involved, just wander around and leech all the honor if you really want.
Wow used to be more of a skill and coordination based game. Now its just a button masher and hope for big crits game.
I have seen people talking about how solo pvp needs some sort of ranking system or better rewards. Alot of players work hard in bgs and get virtually nothing in return especially if your losing all the time.
The small amount of honor you get becomes virtually useless after a short period of time and takes forever to build a decent amount of conquest points. It can waste a lot of time waiting around trying to form a large enough group for a rated bg. And half the time people dont let you join their group because your rating is too low or because you simply just cant find people to play with to get games under your belt.
I Think random bgs would become more competetive if there was more incentive to participate. I see a lot of people contributing to their team but then in the end if your team loses because of lack of participation from the rest of the team you get virtually nothing.
The old vanilla honor system was great, aside from the amount of time needed to achieve decent ranks. It awarded players individually for their efforts. Now I realize if you simply just played a lot you would eventually move up the ladder weather you had little skill or were very skilled.
Maybe a players contibution to a bg could be what the final reward is based on. For example, kills, dmg done, healing, flags capped etc. Why have all these stats on the scoreboard if players get nothing for being the best they can be.
Individual honor should also be brought back as well. If people want to be part of a group they should have that choice. Having to share your honor from kills you get with people that dont contribute or with bots sucks.
Healers could get a peice of the action by getting some of the honor from a kill depending on how much effective healing they did to a player who was fighting to get that kill.
If a player could enter a bg, do 15-40% of the total dmg, healing or cap/return all the flags and be somewhere on the top of the scoreboards, they need more rewards than the people who dont do anything. Especially bots.
This game is way too focused on group play nowadays. Group play is great but I think casual players who enjoy joining a queue for a random bg once or twice a day should have more incentive and rewards.
I used to play this game a lot, and mainly for the pvp. But ever since rbgs and areanas became the main focus I have lost Interest and have not played for about a year now, and i know a lot of people who have also completely quit this game for that reason.
I am competetive and can play arenas etc but should not feel like I have to play them in order to be elidgable for the top rewards.
I am just trying contribute and give suggestions that could possibly help improve wow pvp and make it a more enjoyable game for people to play. Please give some feedback and contribute to my ideas. I dont expect my ideas to be perfect.
Thanks for taking the time to read through this :)