Deeply Flawed PvP Design

I agree that hitting 90, queueing up with your 2 new pieces of pvp gear, and getting steamrolled sucks. Being a broke-!@# alt-oholic like me makes it difficult to buy a set of crafted gear. I could see it being made a little cheaper.

I do NOT agree that gear should be normalized. Getting new gear and doing that much better is a big part of what compels people to keep playing.
Edited by Literacola on 2/21/2013 10:45 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
7150
I agree that hitting 90, queueing up with your 2 new pieces of pvp gear, and getting steamrolled sucks. Being a broke-!@# alt-oholic like me makes it difficult to buy a set of crafted gear. I could see it being made a little cheaper.

I do NOT agree that gear should be normalized. Getting new gear and doing that much better is a big part of what compels people to keep playing.


Check it out. I just hit 90 on my mage. Have the full PvP starter set (ilevel 450), 450 neck and staff and 2 450 trinkets. Had 4k honor from grinding BGs 85-89 (which I'm actually hording for 5.2 except for the one item I got - a back piece).

It's so late in the season that I am literally 3 tiers of gear behind the curve. There's the 458 honor gear, the 483 conquest gear, and finally the 490 rated conquest gear. That in and of itself is a problem. There shouldn't be a 2-3 tier gap in a single season. There should be the 'regular' honor and then 1 tier higher. And even then it should be limited to the actual set (head, chest, shoulders, legs, hands). You should not be given the opportunity to leave everyone in the dust like this.

I mean seriously. 3 tiers behind. WTF. This is a competition that is so heavily stacked in favor of those who started earlier that it's mostly pointless to try. Only thing I'm doing is hitting the honor cap so I can start fresh come next patch. But even then I start with a handicap because I'll only be able to get maybe 3 new pieces of gear at best which still leaves me behind since all those that started earlier will already have better gear. They shoot up the rankings and get better gear while I spend the season in an uphill battle playing catch up.

So yeah, normalize gear because playing like this is !@#$ing stupid.
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90 Undead Mage
1935
02/24/2013 03:58 PMPosted by Kalycto
So yeah, normalize gear because playing like this is !@#$ing stupid.
Your idea wouldn't work... I explained how & Blizzard explained why. Give it up OP you don't deserve a handout because you started gearing late.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
15965
In my opinion the concept of a game should be centred on fun. When the content is a lot of fun, players can be drawn to the content. Fresh cap PvP is very far from fun.

Blizzard seem to place their prime directive that there must be a gear grind so there’s little chance of help for characters new to max level PvP. I accept the grind but I wonder how many players try to PvP and are so horribly turned off they vow never to return and end up just ridiculing PvPers as a defence mechanism to internally justify their bad experience.

Ding 90 in PvE and you’re restricted in the content you can enter. Grab a small number of crafted upgrades and your gear is perfectly suited for 5-man heroics, the entry level PvE content. Victory is almost assured and gear comes from victory.

Ding 90 for PvP and you’re not restricted. You can BG, arena and RBG (good luck getting a team). Grab all the crafted gear you can obtain and you’re hopelessly unprepared gear-wise even for a BG. The fresh character will be unable to exert any pressure and will die in a flash. It’s not fun. IMO something needs to be done. The horrible experience for every new 90 has got to be a big barrier to players entering the content and I sure don’t anecdotally see participation growing strongly.

I tend to think characters should be assigned a minimum set of stats where their gear is below some overall ilvl. I don’t want to see Heroic raid geared players benefiting from a PvP stat buff, but I’d like to see fresh players have a time to kill within a factor of say 2 of a geared player, rather than the current factor of 5-10 times as long. They’re giving low level characters a leg up; why not apply something at 90?
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90 Night Elf Druid
7150
02/24/2013 04:27 PMPosted by Kiaransali
So yeah, normalize gear because playing like this is !@#$ing stupid.
Your idea wouldn't work... I explained how & Blizzard explained why. Give it up OP you don't deserve a handout because you started gearing late.


Nice straw man. No one is asking for a handout because I'm not asking for gear. Your arguments are getting more and more pathetic.
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90 Undead Mage
1935
02/24/2013 05:28 PMPosted by Kalycto
Nice straw man. No one is asking for a handout because I'm not asking for gear. Your arguments are getting more and more pathetic.
Do you even know what a strawman is, because it's pretty clear you don't. What's pathetic is that you cling to an idea that just wouldn't work & that even after explaining in detail how & why it's a flawed idea you haven't learned anything. You are asking for gear to be normalized... the same gear as someone that has won hundreds of matches to obtain gear. If you don't see that as a handout you are delusional.

02/24/2013 04:49 PMPosted by Stabmartha
In my opinion the concept of a game should be centred on fun
That's a nice thought, but it doesn't really mean anything. Everyone has a different definition of what is fun in PvP & some opinions are directly opposite of one another. For example I value teamwork & winning. Some players value doing whatever they want & ignoring objectives to farm HKs. Both of us are trying to have fun but our goals are in direct opposition.
Edited by Kiaransali on 2/24/2013 6:14 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
7150
Do you even know what a strawman is, because it's pretty clear you don't. What's pathetic is that you cling to an idea that just wouldn't work & that even after explaining in detail how & why it's a flawed idea you haven't learned anything. You are asking for gear to be normalized... the same gear as someone that has won hundreds of matches to obtain gear. If you don't see that as a handout you are delusional.


Straw man is where you twist/alter what I said, then address the newly altered argument, then claim you've made a rebuttal. Making the (false) claim that I want a handout is the definition of a straw man when I want an even playing field - which Blizzard has acknowledged that it isn't.

If the change is implemented at a later patch/season when gear 'resets' the impact will be minimal. I even used the example of a new expansion where EVERYONE, you included, will be starting from scratch. But you conveniently ignored that point.

At the end of the day you don't want an even playing field. You aren't even offering a compromise. Your wargames suggestion sucks because it doesn't solve the problem for BGs, RBGs, or arenas. It just further segregates PvP.

You actually haven't explained once why it wouldn't work. You just quoted Blizzard's rational for not doing it. I have yet to see proof that the majority of people will be less motivated to PvP if gear is normalized. It's a BS assumption. Any people that stop PvPing because of it I have no doubt will be offset by those who will start up again knowing they have a chance.

5 posts up I perfectly described the challenges a new player faces. If you think there's nothing wrong with that large of a handicap then we have nothing to discuss.

I already countered everything Daxxarri said.

1.) With normalized gear, PvE will never outpace PvP gear so the scenario of using PvE gear over PvP will never arise since gear will not matter.

2.) WoW is progression based so players will lose interest if PvP doesn't reward players with gear - a claim that I find unfounded given that the drive for PvP is to test your skills against players. Daxxarri claims that other PvP games borrowed progression elements from MMORPGs as evidence for his claim. What he doesn't mention is the changes are cosmetic and do not effect balance which is INTEGRAL for competitive play.

3.) Daxxarri acknowledges PvP becomes unbalanced given SIGNIFICANT gear differentials. Which already exist. Not only is there a 3 tier difference but that difference in tiers increases since you can UPGRADE your gear, effectively making the difference equivalent to a 4-5 tier deficit, not a 3 tier deficit.

As a compromise, I'd rather see 2, non-upgradeable, tiers at the start of an expansion - the crafted blues you get and then the 'true' PvP gear you get via honor. They should eliminate the 2 types of PvP currency, honor and conquest, and merge then into one new currency. Then they should eliminate ratings requirements (which they are). Each subsequent season for the duration of the expansion only releases 1 new tier. This way EVERYONE gets to get it eventually. Those who win more will get it faster but by mid season most players will have it too.

Here's a problem that someone else brought up in the article YOU linked: Blizzard assumes that the natural progression for PvP is random BGs, then rated BGs, then finally arena when I don't think that's true at all, yet their system is designed with this intention in mind. My compromise addresses this as it allows everyone to purchase gear with a single unified PvP currency from the PvP avenue of their choosing.
Edited by Kalycto on 2/24/2013 7:03 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
15965
That's a nice thought, but it doesn't really mean anything. Everyone has a different definition of what is fun in PvP & some opinions are directly opposite of one another. For example I value teamwork & winning. Some players value doing whatever they want & ignoring objectives to farm HKs. Both of us are trying to have fun but our goals are in direct opposition.


The point was that it’s not at all fun to enter max level PvP and be destroyed over and over until you’ve earned a set of honour gear.

I agree it’s subjective as to what different players find to be fun. What I’m fairly confident of is that a large number of players do not find fun in the repetition of being destroyed over and over until they miraculously hit light at the end of that dark tunnel of getting the honour set on a fresh 90. Fresh 90 PvP is the antithesis of fun. I strongly suspect a lot just give up and chalk it up to a bad experience.

That is what I find so starkly contrasting to PvE in which the player is good to go immediately in content tuned for their gear level.

There is no intermediate stage for a fresh 90 in PvP. It’s fight with the big boys or leave and I think the paltry participation this xpac in arena attests to players discontinuing PvP before they advance to the rated content.

The higher the barriers to entry before a player feels they can enjoy play on a relatively level footing, the lower the likely number of participants.
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90 Night Elf Druid
2420
02/19/2013 04:18 PMPosted by Jugaa
sure, it sucks gearing up, but it really doesn't take that long.


02/19/2013 04:35 PMPosted by Jugaa
We must have very different definitions of what a long time is.


A long time would be greater than a week. I guess it depends how much time you have to play each day/week. If you have a couple hours each day, it would be under a week. If you only play a couple times a week, that's not Blizz's fault and they should not change their system because of that... Sometimes even bringing 1 or 2 people, even if from tradechat, will help gear up faster.


WTF are you talking about? Conquest Points have a weekly cap of 1850, or thereabouts. For me to get full purple gear, to compete with the rest of the full purple geared people, takes about 10-12 weeks. How is that not "greater than a week"?
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90 Night Elf Druid
2420
02/24/2013 04:27 PMPosted by Kiaransali
Give it up OP you don't deserve a handout because you started gearing late.


Aren't you getting tired of the bile you keep spewing out of your mouth? Trust me, the rest of us are. You keep coming back to that same old baseless rhetoric about how everyone is looking for a handout or feels they are entitled. People come to these boards to express how they feel pvp is broken and ways to fix it, and your canned response is "you just want a handout when look how hard I had to work for my gear". NOBODY is saying they just want a handout. What are you so afraid of? You so proudly grinded out your pvp gear using oqueue, now your terrified your not going to be recognized as such a great pvp player if you have to go up against equally gear players?

Here's a thought for you: maybe the truth is, that actually you're the one who feels like you're entitled. You got your pvp gear early in the season, before many people had the full purple gear, using oqueue to circumvent the native system, and now you feel entitled to a greater advantage over other players in bg. Chew on that.
Edited by Anaxx on 2/24/2013 9:56 PM PST
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90 Orc Hunter
6100
blizzard should take a chapter from swtor and do what they are currently doing. Make the top tier gear only slightly better than the next tier below it....this way the die hard pvpers can still strive for better gear but they won't severely outgear the masses to the point no one can kill them. This creates a more balanced pvp environment where skill is more of a factor than gear. I just recently came back to wow but I shouldn't have been surprised that gear in this game is still more important than the skill of the player.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7150
02/24/2013 09:48 PMPosted by Cezar
OP I agree with you, but you are gonna be hard pressed to get many that will agree with this as they are only intrested in what sort of an advantage they can have on their opponent, and care a lot less for skill in game play.


I feel like there is a culture of stubbornness in Blizzard where they refuse to acknowledge missteps. Like their entire direction of healing back in Cataclysm.

It took them almost six years to remove the ratings requirements on PvP gear after adding them in the very second arena season back in TBC. Their reasons for removing ratings requirements outlined in Daxxarri's blog here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8397168/PvP_Gear_in_52_and_Beyond-1_17_2013

...were the same arguments we made over 5 years ago.

As for players fighting this change? Their motives are as transparent as their weak arguments. They want to maintain their advantage and monopoly on the top.
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90 Tauren Monk
4980
Here is the main problem in these arguments.

The people who want gear normalization are completely different personality types than the people who are against it, and by nature, there value systems will never work out.

The pro normalization type is very competitive and skill driven. They probably are smart, and like to win from their natural abilities. If they feel they have been cheated it upsets them and they have a hard coping with it. In there ideal world, the smartest most fit individuals prevail.

Now we have the anti normalization. This person plays wow because it is an mmo, and they want to get gear. Pvp is less about "did I prove that I am more skilled than the other person" and more about just having fun. For this person does not see fun as simpy winning, but rather the collect experience and user engagement, which includes gear.

The pro normalization player sees gear as cheating, where as the anti normalization person sees it as enrichment to the game. If every player is slightly different, it is more realistic to a real battle, where you have differently skilled people. In a sense, anything cann happen. In a game where all players are identical, only the skilled prevail. However, unlike the current system, that can never change.

If gear normalitiom were to take place, than only the most skilled would have a fun time, which is a smaller percentage of the player base than you think. Gears allows everyone the opportunity of super stardom even if you are not the most skilled. Blizzard does this because lets face it, wow players are not known for their reflexes or snipping skills. Now, key turner Steve, while gets owned for months at time, does see some improvement in his game thanks to gear.

Hnestly. I feel your pain as someone who supports gear normalization, as the current system couldnt be more the opposite. For me, after playing wow for like 6 years and leveling numerous toons, I have grown numb to the pvp grind. I could get graveyard stomped 10 games in a row and still say it was worth my time, and I not being sarcastic. Ha, sounds weird, but I stopped caring about disadvantages a long time once I realized I couldnt control it. There will always be better and worse players than you, no matter what the system, no matter what the game, or playing field, and u just gotta deal with it. Luckily there are thousands of video games on the market, and if wow isn't quite your style you can pick something that is more skill driven.
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90 Undead Warrior
10745
No.

Even if Bliz decided to follow your advice, diffferent classes have different strengths and weaknesses. So if you queue up to a BG or RBG and come across a team with a better composition, you are still going to lose.

Unless, of course, you follow your argument to its conclusion and just have one class with the same available skills.

Oh, and Bliz sends them all PCs with the same specs.

And tucks them in at night so they all have the proper amount of sleep so they can comptete at optimum levels.

/facepalm


^This
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90 Undead Mage
1935
02/24/2013 09:48 PMPosted by Cezar
OP I agree with you, but you are gonna be hard pressed to get many that will agree with this as they are only intrested in what sort of an advantage they can have on their opponent, and care a lot less for skill in game play.
Have you read anything posted or just came here to post nonsense? I explained in detail, as did Blizzard. why ideas like the OP's wouldn't work. You're like the guy that missed 90% of a lecture and then you come in to ask a question that has been answered already.

02/25/2013 01:30 AMPosted by Fartyjamz
The pro normalization type is very competitive and skill driven.
I lol'ed. This is pure horse manure. Most just want a handout, plain & simple. If your theory were true you would see a lot of 2200+ players asking for gear normalization. Instead what you normally get is poorly geared players that never broke 1500 screaming for it.

02/25/2013 01:30 AMPosted by Fartyjamz
If gear normalitiom were to take place, than only the most skilled would have a fun time
No if it were to take place BGs would be unplayable for players like me that value winning and teamwork. Why? Remove progression from the game & the incentive to win is gone for most players. The result? Every BG becomes a death match, with everyone ignoring objectives to farm HKs (which is the only thing left that matters).
Edited by Kiaransali on 2/25/2013 3:54 AM PST
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100 Human Mage
14865
I have no opinion on gear normalization. My comment is not about gear normalization.

I think they need a gear or resilience matching system. I enjoy gear progression myself; however, I think fresh 90's in contender gear should not be matched against those in fully upgraded Malevolent gear.

Some my say Q times will be longer; we don't know for a fact how much longer. I get insta Q's now almost always. I don't mind waiting longer for the Q to pop.

I'm not whining; I've leveled several up in pvp only. But, also, I have fresh 90's that didn't and are in contender gear. I played them a few times late this season then stopped. As it is, it's better to wait for a new seaon for them to gear at the beginning.

I personally support a random bg gear ilevel or resilience rating or some kind of matching system. It's my personal preference. Some like this concept, some don't. We'll never know what the majority of players support from the forum posts alone.

Does this make pvp perfectly balanced? No, of course not. I don't think that's what the OP is talking about. It's certainly not what I'm talking about or proposing. Will it help fresh 90's in contender gear have a more enjoyable experience in pvp? I think so. Will it take away from the fun of pvp for geared players? Not for me. I can't speak for others.

We'll never know what the majority of players support unless there was a poll when wow is launched that pops up; something like: a. I support a gear or resilience matching system for random bg's; b. I do not support a gear or resilience mathcing system for random bg's; c. I wouldn't play pvp either way; d. I have no opinion on the subject.

Something like that.
Edited by Magdasearu on 2/25/2013 5:11 AM PST
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90 Tauren Monk
4980


02/25/2013 01:30 AMPosted by Fartyjamz
The pro normalization type is very competitive and skill driven.
I lol'ed. This is pure horse manure. Most just want a handout, plain & simple. If your theory were true you would see a lot of 2200+ players asking for gear normalization. Instead what you normally get is poorly geared players that never broke 1500 screaming for it.



True, but I'm talking about the type that want it for the right reasons, which is fair pvp in their minds.
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90 Undead Mage
1935
02/25/2013 06:16 AMPosted by Fartyjamz
True, but I'm talking about the type that want it for the right reasons, which is fair pvp in their minds
I don't want it for the right reasons. What the OP & people like him fail to understand is that a progression based system IS based on competition, much like capitalism is based on competition (the successful individuals/companies get rich, while the less successful individuals/companies do not & the bad ones go bankrupt). Sure you need some safeguards in place to make sure everyone has the opportunity to succeed, but artificially imposing balance (like the OP's suggestion) would actually serve as a disincentive for succeeding (which in PvP means winning matches).

I think they need a gear or resilience matching system. I enjoy gear progression myself; however, I think fresh 90's in contender gear should not be matched against those in fully upgraded Malevolent gear.

Some my say Q times will be longer; we don't know for a fact how much longer
Blizzard is on record saying that splitting BGs into brackets would likely "dramatically increase queue times". Thus it wouldn't work for that reason (most players would rather have shorter queues).
Edited by Kiaransali on 2/25/2013 6:33 AM PST
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