What's your dungeon style?

90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
Are you conservative or are you rapid?

I just did a Temple of the Jade servent. Anyways, I made fairly large pulls - all trash before each boss, except on Sha of Doubt, where I pulled the 3 trash and the boss together. Apparently the healer was AFK or had some sort of a connection issue. Everyone but me died and I soloed the Sha.

After the dungeon, one of the players, a rogue was quite displeased with me. He did die twice during that fight (I did brez him but he was unable to keep himself alive) and I believe one more time (dps-ed before I had aggro on all of the mobs). In my defense, I did not expect the healer to be AFK (no dispels) and the mage in our group did not dispel, despite having the ability to do so.

Edit: Apparently not possible for mage to remove curse
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=106736#used-by-npc

Edit 2: The healer did say sorry at the end. I think they were having connection issues and DCed? I can't tell though.

This is the first time I have encountered a raider (the rogue) who firmly belongs in the conservative camp. I have always wondered, how many people are of the conservative style? How many are rapid?

Conservative: Wants to avoid death as much as possible. Likes to work with well geared players but at the same time, does not like to die no matter what, even if it substantially slows the dungeon.

Rapid: Accepts death as a risk, pulls rapidly.

VP per hour is often what they are after. I want to emphasize by rapid though, that I mean a player that has carefully analyzed their situation - does not pull more than they can handle, but makes large pulls just at the threshold of what they think they can handle. Occasionally they may misjudge, but usually it leads to a faster run-speed.

What kind of player are you? And how many conservative versus rapid players have you seen?
Edited by Attackknight on 2/15/2013 4:06 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12215
For future reference, mages can't dispel magic.

And rapid all the way. There's no such thing as a threatening pull in a 5man possibly excepting trying to pull the entire student room in Scholo.
Edited by Balhale on 2/15/2013 2:44 AM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
For future reference, mages can't dispel magic.

And rapid all the way. There's no such thing as a threatening pull in a 5man possibly excepting trying to pull the entire student room in Scholo.


I stand corrected.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=106736#used-by-npc

It would appear that the damage is shadow. I had originally thought that it was something else. I suppose the only thing the mage could have done was to save themselves at least 1 time, which IIRC they did not do (I presume ice block could have done the job).

I guess that's what I get for tanking at 3 am half asleep.

For the schlo room, I always found pulling groups of 2-3 was best. Pull 2 then as about half of them are dead and the rest are low hp, taunt another group, the another. You could pull them all with good cd management (and a good healer), but in an average pug, that's no assurance. The benefit of pulling all is that you can get some high (for a 5 man) AP that you can use to spam AOE which does save time.
Edited by Attackknight on 2/15/2013 3:28 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17635
Rapid.

Zone in, and its off to the races. Only works on my tank toons though :(

On my DPS toon I'm unfortunately stuck going as fast as the tank goes, most of the time anyways, lol.

Well, I did pet tank half a heroic on my hunter once because the tank was afk and we couldnt kick.
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90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
That and what you said got me thinking.

Why did I not bother to look that up before? It's because the tuning of the dungeons this tier has been so lenient that I never bothered to consider it worth the time to look it up beforehand and analyzing. In fact, I often feel bored when tanking in dungeons. I mean we do approach a 5 man differently than we would say a raid, but the gap has become huge.

I've spoken to many other tanks and healers - they share a similar problem. Often there's so little damage going out that it causes other problems. Healers for example tend to "zone out" at times because there isn't as much damage, while tanks - well it isn't a tough job anymore, so the only time we have to use cds is pretty much when we chain pull. Often healers wish that dps would stand in fire, if only to give them something to do.

See this for example:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7173837322?page=1

I think that the fact that you can tank a dungeon with a hunter pet, the fact that tanks can find dungeons boring, or that healers feel devalued (like in the thread I linked) suggests other long term problems with making dungeons undertuned.

That being said, there is one benefit to keeping dungeons like this - easier to valor cap quickly, which is highly desirable.
Edited by Attackknight on 2/15/2013 5:10 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12215
Put it this way, I haven't needed a healer in heroics for about 20 ilvls. Alternatively, a group of dps/healers at my gear level wouldn't need a tank either.

And we're only in first tier raid gear. Imagine how lolworthy these will be in final tier gear.
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100 Human Rogue
11320
Rapid for sure. When I que with one of our tanks (even if its OS) we try to find a DPS to que as healer so we don't waste a spot because a correctly played tank is invincible in 5 mans. It does mean your dps needs to have a little bit more responsibility in terms of avoiding damage but not really even that much and a DPS hybrid can easily throw out a few heals when absolutely needed. We are able to knock out most instances in the shorter side of 5-10 minutes.
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100 Troll Death Knight
19050
I've been known to rush headlong into a boss, making us 4 man it without a healer, and still finishing perfectly fine. I try to go at a pace a little bit faster than I did the time before, because each second I shave off my previous run is a little more difficulty than the last, which then keeps me on my toes for raids.
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100 Pandaren Priest
18935
If you're pulling continuously and the healer randomly goes afk, that is 100% their fault. If the healer has gone out of range, that's something worth checking on though.

I despise tanks that sit around staring at the walls between pulls. Yes, I am here. Yes, I am ready to go. Yes, I have enough mana or I would be drinking the instant combat ends. Yes, I can click ok on the ready-check. Yes, I am paying attention but if you keep farting around then I'll STOP and be off watching a movie by the time you actually get around to pulling.

Come 5.2, tanks like that will find that they get shoved aside, it's already mostly possible to heal-tank.
Edited by Breathkeeper on 2/15/2013 10:51 AM PST
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100 Tauren Druid
10175
On my old warrior tank, I'd go as quickly as possible. I'd run so much dungeons that I'd have a perfect mental map of everything. I think I can still write out my "how to run Heroic Mechanar" strategy.

Now that I'm healing, I wish every tank would go fast fast. So I fill my time with DPSing.

Or sometimes I keep a LB rolling and play Peggle, doing a WG if there's any party damage.
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100 Human Priest
5705
For future reference, mages can't dispel magic.

And rapid all the way. There's no such thing as a threatening pull in a 5man possibly excepting trying to pull the entire student room in Scholo.


I can't begin to count the number of groups that pulled the entire student room in Scholo on accident. The first time it happened on me, everyone died. Every time after that, Flash Heal spam with PWS, some well timed Surge of Light procs, and PoM keeps the tank up through the worst of it, although I sometimes do have to blow mana-related cooldowns.

I figure that if I can heal through that, then I can pretty much heal my way through any style...

... although the worst I've ever seen was heroic Nexus back in the day when I had two different tanks pull 3 groups of mobs (14 total) + the first boss simultaneously on purpose... and we survived. That's about as rapid as they come...
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Fast tanks are fun tanks. Reason I enjoy doing dungeons with my guild's tanks is because they can pull half the instance and I can laugh at the bear doing 300k AoE dps.
Through I also prefer that the tanks that do so are geared and know what they are doing. I prefer to go on a normal pace then have a tank overestimate their survivability and wipe the group.
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90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
If you're pulling continuously and the healer randomly goes afk, that is 100% their fault. If the healer has gone out of range, that's something worth checking on though.



To be fair, the healer did say "sorry" at the end and did assume responsibility. I think that they were having connection issues. They did dc for a bit during the Wise Maru.
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90 Gnome Warrior
13195
I did the entire student room in Scholo last night on one pull in 489 gear with a full pug.

Shockwave is nice for that, idk how that'd work for other tanks.
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90 Human Warlock
11940
If you're pulling continuously and the healer randomly goes afk, that is 100% their fault. If the healer has gone out of range, that's something worth checking on though.



To be fair, the healer did say "sorry" at the end and did assume responsibility. I think that they were having connection issues. They did dc for a bit during the Wise Maru.


That should have been your first clue.

Personally I am not rapid or conservative. If I am the tank and I know the healer (I regularly run dungeons with a guildy healer), I will stop at the entrance of the dungeon and explain that we will be making big pulls, so wait to dps and try and keep up. If someone dies I take full responsibility for that. As was explained by my healer once, people aren't used to pulling all the way to the boss, so you cannot expect them to react in the same manner they would if you pulled trash the "normal" way. Regardless if the DPS stood in fire - if I have 100 mobs and he can't see the fire and this was the first time he pulled the trash and the boss, then the death is on me.

If I do a random and do not know the healer, I will ask if they are willing to heal through big pulls. If I get anything but "sure", I pull normally and let the healer know if he wants me to pull more he is going to have to tell me. Pretty much I leave it up to the healer. However if the healer is having issues staying connected or keeping people alive through the big pulls, I would suggest backing off a little bit. I don't think anyone likes to die. If the healer was having issues keeping people alive or connecting and you cant (cause you aren't a pally), that should be your queue to not pull big and to make sure the healer is present before every pull.
Edited by Whyzlock on 2/15/2013 4:46 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
tys
9350
I'd have to put you in the conservative camp then.

In most cases, with a well geared tank, it really does not matter. As Ninja has indicated above, often healers do dps with a geared tank.

And the reality is people do occasionally DC or in many cases AFK. I don't think the outcome would have been any different as it would have had to have happened midpull. The thing is, without a healer, there's nobody to dispel on that boss. And if you've already engaged the boss and healer was there at the start, but in the middle of combat DCs, well you're on your own.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11455
A hybrid.

I'll pull as fast as I can, but if I know a pull ahead has a higher than average rate of death, I'll slow up until we get past it.

Of course, being a 491ilevel tank, in dungeons tuned for those in ~450, there's very few packs I can't just charge headlong into safely unless the healer's in 450s.
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As a dps I don't care. As a healer, it's on you as the tank to figure out what you can handle. If I'm oom and you keep pulling while I'm drinking, then you'll need to keep yourself alive until I'm done drinking and catch up. If you're dropping like a rock on every pull and I'm blowing CD's and going oom on trash, then I'd probably drop group. But if you're geared and and damage is reasonable, then go for it.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
17115
every pull, I pull as much as I can at once.

Literally boss to boss pulls when possible.

I've had sub 4 minute scarlet halls and sub 10 shadopan.
Edited by Asane on 2/15/2013 9:19 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
16395
02/15/2013 04:52 PMPosted by Attackknight
The thing is, without a healer, there's nobody to dispel on that boss.


Knowing that, you may want to wait til healer is online, unless you are a pally tank that can do enough hps to keep up the group...

Conservative: Wants to avoid death as much as possible. Likes to work with well geared players but at the same time, does not like to die no matter what, even if it substantially slows the dungeon.

Rapid: Accepts death as a risk, pulls rapidly.


Guess I'd be on the conservative side... I don't trust random healers so I won't make big pulls unless I have my cooldowns up... If I am forced to blow defensive cooldowns on a pull then I'd just take it slow until cooldowns are up...
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