Enough complaining about it, let's fix ret.

Every single patch, the same complaints and the same cries. Why? Well we complain fore more burst, then more utility, and finally more sustained damage. Usually in that order too! From a development standpoint, we CANNOT have all three. I will agree, that I too want to be the best class and roll over everyone in areas, but we cant so that things are fair.

Ideally we want to be useful, and not so reliant on our cooldowns. Simple solution would be to increase our sustained dps. For PvE, increasing censure damage, or AP scaling, would definitely keep our dps on par with others when CDs are down. Also adding back two-handed weapon specialization to some degree would also help us big time with it. Though 2h weapon spec for PvP may make us a bit more bursty I dont believe that it would make us scarier than warriors or even mages right now. Even after their nerfs in 5.2, giving us a tad more damage wouldn't make all rets instant gladiators. With the addition of shattering throw and priest's mass dispel, our bubble is no longer our safe spot, we aren't exactly undying anymore.

To address any complaints about our utility, I honestly think that you need to look at our arsenal. We are one of the remaining classes that has so many options for defensive cooldowns. Fixing the damage problem would definitely make those of you who think we don't have enough utility happier I think. While I do agree that most other classes have better utility, we have more which in the end balances it out. We effectively have 7 different abilities we can use to help our allies with (that aren't damage dealing or healing abilities, if you count those, we have many more).

Again, we can't have it all. I do believe many of us would be happier with more damage and less utility in PvE and PvP. The vocal minority seems to be out in full force and seem to be directing the changes for ret and this is a trend that I feel is not beneficial for the future of ret. Ret is a higher skill cap class, which I love about it, which leads many to think we are completely useless, thus causing more than the average QQing. Hopefully instead of ruining a great class, we can improve on the weak and balance the overpowered.

P.S. Ghostcrawler I know you hate us, but I think it's time we get treated like one of the family again ;)
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19020
02/15/2013 07:51 PMPosted by Woa
We have to use it to be effective, but by using it we are actually hurting our Dps some too.


I don't understand this way of thinking, TBH. Even with that drop every 30s, our damage is more than it would be without Inquisition. Seeing a negative in something that is a purely positive in effect, minus the the obvious 'blah' behind all maintenance buffs.

Anyway, I find your idea about Inquisition buffing the damage on the next X interesting. Probably one of the better ones I've heard, really.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
17705
Every single patch, the same complaints and the same cries. Why? Well we complain fore more burst, then more utility, and finally more sustained damage. Usually in that order too! From a development standpoint, we CANNOT have all three. I will agree, that I too want to be the best class and roll over everyone in areas, but we cant so that things are fair.

Ideally we want to be useful, and not so reliant on our cooldowns. Simple solution would be to increase our sustained dps. For PvE, increasing censure damage, or AP scaling, would definitely keep our dps on par with others when CDs are down. Also adding back two-handed weapon specialization to some degree would also help us big time with it. Though 2h weapon spec for PvP may make us a bit more bursty I dont believe that it would make us scarier than warriors or even mages right now. Even after their nerfs in 5.2, giving us a tad more damage wouldn't make all rets instant gladiators. With the addition of shattering throw and priest's mass dispel, our bubble is no longer our safe spot, we aren't exactly undying anymore.

To address any complaints about our utility, I honestly think that you need to look at our arsenal. We are one of the remaining classes that has so many options for defensive cooldowns. Fixing the damage problem would definitely make those of you who think we don't have enough utility happier I think. While I do agree that most other classes have better utility, we have more which in the end balances it out. We effectively have 7 different abilities we can use to help our allies with (that aren't damage dealing or healing abilities, if you count those, we have many more).

Again, we can't have it all. I do believe many of us would be happier with more damage and less utility in PvE and PvP. The vocal minority seems to be out in full force and seem to be directing the changes for ret and this is a trend that I feel is not beneficial for the future of ret. Ret is a higher skill cap class, which I love about it, which leads many to think we are completely useless, thus causing more than the average QQing. Hopefully instead of ruining a great class, we can improve on the weak and balance the overpowered.

P.S. Ghostcrawler I know you hate us, but I think it's time we get treated like one of the family again ;)


I've not seen many Ret's ask for "more burst" but I know a lot of us would rather have more "sustained" DPS throughout a fight which has been our main concern for some time now. GC however was correct there is a trade off if we gain more sustained DPS (which being honest is what we should get) we would have to lose some of our burst damage as well.

While I would be for losing some burst to gain in the sustained damage at what cost would it be? There are far to many people that play "Ret" cause it's cool and they like the huge burst numbers that they see when we have all of our cooldowns up and ready. However how many of them would cry "NERF!!!!!" with a change to burst that would lower it yet in return for the lower burst we would gain sustained damage?

As for our utility there is no real reason to lose any of the utility we have still in order to gain a sustained damage increase. Our utility is there yes however a lot of it is tied to cool downs for them as well which more then offsets them so nerfing/removing some utility in all honesty to me would just be dumb.

Woa,

INQ is not the sole reason for the dps decrease. While I do agree we waste a GCD with having to refresh it it's not that hard to make up that difference within a cooldown phase. However it would be nice if instead of having INQ on the GCD table they would remove the GCD from it so we do not have downtime from other abilities like Judgement or Crusader Strike. That or honestly give it to Ret as a baseline ability (which would most likely never happen) I've not had an issue since Cata Beta with being able to keep INQ up and active at anytime within a raid setting or even a 5 man run.
Edited by Psychosîs on 2/15/2013 8:46 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
17705
Woe,

INQ is not the sole reason for the dps decrease. While I do agree we waste a GCD with having to refresh it it's not that hard to make up that difference within a cooldown phase. However it would be nice if instead of having INQ on the GCD table they would remove the GCD from it so we do not have downtime from other abilities like Judgement or Crusader Strike. That or honestly give it to Ret as a baseline ability (which would most likely never happen) I've not had an issue since Cata Beta with being able to keep INQ up and active at anytime within a raid setting or even a 5 man run.


I really do not have a problem with Inq either. played a Rogue long before i ever picked up a Paladin so when we went to HoPo and Inq, it was a very easy transition. I think if the buff i describe is done well, and it is small enough, we should be able to keep 99% of our burst and buff our sustained by 1%, It would be a very small buff, to (judgment) a ability that it would only really be felt in a raid. Its just bum feeling knowing that at teh start of the fight you are blowing up the meters, but by the end you slowly dropped down the charts to mediocre. It would just slow the fall.


I would honestly rather see our burst get reduced and sustained damage get the increase then add in a "trick" to make things better or as most would call it a band-aid fix in general. There is no way (and GC pretty much said it himself) they would allow us to keep our burst as well as up our sustained damage. There has to be a trade off.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
02/15/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Psychosîs
I would honestly rather see our burst get reduced and sustained damage get the increase then add in a "trick" to make things better or as most would call it a band-aid fix in general. There is no way (and GC pretty much said it himself) they would allow us to keep our burst as well as up our sustained damage. There has to be a trade off.


I don't normally like to get into these sorts of discussions as they tend to devolve into "buff us to be op too plz" (that, and I don't really have a problem with Ret's current functionality), but the above quoted tells me there may be some leeway for level-headed discussion in this one. So here goes.

I agree with Ghostcrawler that, to buff our sustained, our burst needs to be nerfed - or "retuned," if "nerfed" is too scary or bad a word. Currently, as I see it, we are balanced around three forms of burst: Guardian of Ancient Kings, Avenging Wrath, and whatever talent one selects at Level 75. Yes, this includes Divine Purpose because the sporadic, random nature is more burst-oriented even if the procs average out to be "sustainable."

The only thing I would like addressed for Ret is this. My recommendation would be to give us only two forms of burst around which to balance us: GoAK, and the L75; Wings would be rolled into Sanctified Wrath, so that taking SW gives Wings with all the current SW benefits. In performing this change, I think that Holy Avenger and DP should be retuned to bring them more evenly in line with SW. This would also have the benefit of giving people that enjoy HA and/or DP more incentive to use them without persecution or regret, and make each of us a touch more individualized by letting us choose our preferred form of burst.

Doing this, I feel, would still leave us with strong burst capabilities, but provide room in which to buff our sustained damage. To that end, all I would ask for is that Judgment scale with weapon damage (150% weapon damage as Holy, perhaps? plus some sort of coefficient? slightly stronger than Crusader Strike, but CS would still proc mastery and Jud would not - like things are now) and/or a buff to our passive two-handed damage from Sword of Light. I realize the former suggestion may have undesirable ramifications for PvP if it's coded wrong, which it probably will be early on (look at the SoJ "fix"); but I don't want Jud to be a weapon strike, just to scale off weapon damage similarly to Seal hits.

Let's face it: they don't want to over-power us and we don't want to get nerfed. A balance point has to be found if we want to get better sustained damage, and there is no easy quick'n'fix that will be satisfactory. I'm quite sure that not even what I have outlined above would go over well with most players, but so be it; it's my opinion, and I render it for discussion - not flaming.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
18165
02/15/2013 09:39 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
The only thing I would like addressed for Ret is this. My recommendation would be to give us only two forms of burst around which to balance us: GoAK, and the L75; Wings would be rolled into Sanctified Wrath, so that taking SW gives Wings with all the current SW benefits. In performing this change, I think that Holy Avenger and DP should be retuned to bring them more evenly in line with SW. This would also have the benefit of giving people that enjoy HA and/or DP more incentive to use them without persecution or regret, and make each of us a touch more individualized by letting us choose our preferred form of burst.


From a PvP perspective, my main concern - and it is somewhat of a corollary issue - is the unreliability of Guardian of Ancient Kings in PvP. The Guardian frequently glitches in PvP. It runs off into the distance, stands stupidly after a target switch, or leaves the opponent it was hitting to run to my side while I'm CCed. It's incredibly unreliable, even when used with my stun to try and give it a head start on building stacks - but even then it's not uncommon for the buff to expire having never built up more than 8-12 stacks.

My point is that a change along these lines would require the Guardian to be fixed and reliable if it is going to be our only baseline damage cooldown. Pillar of Frost and Avatar (which was blatantly taken directly from the Retribution feedback threads asking for Guardian fixes during Cata and given to Warriors) are infinitely more useful than the Guardian not only because they have shorter cooldowns and no ramp-up time, but because they are *reliable*. As is, I pop my Guardian when I want my target to use defensive cooldowns and CC. If I get enough use out of it to damage or kill them, I count myself lucky. I use Avenging Wrath when I think I actually have a shot at scoring a kill - because I can count on it.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
Quite frankly, "fixing" GoAK (either in smartening its AI, or redesigning it all together) should have been a much higher priority than foolishly tinkering with SoJ. Far as I'm aware, no other pet - permanent or otherwise - has the issues our Guardian does. I've never seen my Shaman's wolves or elementals run off and do some of the stupid things the Guardian has been reported to do, nor any of my DK's minions, nor my Mage's clones.

I've always been disappointed in GoAK's implementation, and I was one of the ones that wanted us to be the Guardian - having said as much on the forums - and was absolutely infuriated when Avatar was announced. But I still think it's the better one to keep baseline, allowing the L75 to be more of a preference towards burst windows, and a five minute CD doesn't seem like it would ever get chosen because of that lengthy down time; you pick a talent, you want to use it, right?
Reply Quote
02/15/2013 10:22 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
I've always been disappointed in GoAK's implementation, and I was one of the ones that wanted us to be the Guardian


Ive always wanted it to be like metamorphosis, doesnt need to give us any new abilities but damage increase and spell effects would be exciting enough enough. I heard talks of them making it this way before MoP, guess that fell through?

I believe that ret is one of the classes that needs somewhat of a rework, and GoAK should be the first on that list of things to change. Next would have to be how haste and AP/SP effect censure. I honestly thing buffing censure and giving us 2h weapon specialization back would fix our sustained enough to make everyone happy.
Edited by Asuna on 2/15/2013 10:29 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
02/15/2013 10:29 PMPosted by Asuna
giving us 2h weapon specialization back


We never lost it; it simply got nerfed and rolled into Sword of Light. Check your spellbook.
Reply Quote
02/15/2013 10:33 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
giving us 2h weapon specialization back


We never lost it; it simply got nerfed and rolled into Sword of Light. Check your spellbook.


Well I know that, what I mean is the old 25% version. 15% is a rather large amount with the way gear is scaling now.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
I do agree that gutting it that deeply was an unjustified mistake, especially when both Warrior DPS specs retained it at a much higher rate - actually, I don't even think theirs were touched at all. I'd like to see their passive weapon buffs take a nose-dive; that alone would probably bring them in line.
Reply Quote
02/15/2013 10:42 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
I do agree that gutting it that deeply was an unjustified mistake, especially when both Warrior DPS specs retained it at a much higher rate - actually, I don't even think theirs were touched at all. I'd like to see their passive weapon buffs take a nose-dive; that alone would probably bring them in line.


They'd be a lot worse than us I believe, warriors especially.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19020
Quite frankly, "fixing" GoAK (either in smartening its AI, or redesigning it all together) should have been a much higher priority than foolishly tinkering with SoJ. Far as I'm aware, no other pet - permanent or otherwise - has the issues our Guardian does. I've never seen my Shaman's wolves or elementals run off and do some of the stupid things the Guardian has been reported to do, nor any of my DK's minions, nor my Mage's clones.

I've always been disappointed in GoAK's implementation, and I was one of the ones that wanted us to be the Guardian - having said as much on the forums - and was absolutely infuriated when Avatar was announced. But I still think it's the better one to keep baseline, allowing the L75 to be more of a preference towards burst windows, and a five minute CD doesn't seem like it would ever get chosen because of that lengthy down time; you pick a talent, you want to use it, right?


Ya, I love seeing him fall from the sky right above my target as I'm coming in from ranged, take 1 swing, and then run all the way back to me. Messes up the timing for max burst. Or how it seems that he doesn't commit to a target until you hit it with a melee attack.

I might be remembering this wrong, it's been like 10 years. Before WoW launched, there was an article I read in a gaming magazine. It was like 10 or so pages full of the usual pregame stuff... dev talk, previews, game focus, etc. I believe Avatar was a planned warrior Hero Class ability. Originally, we were all supposed to be able to progress to a Hero. Avatar was something they'd been wanting to throw in forever. The only thing that was mentioned in the article about it was the name Avatar and how it empowered the Hero, no other details.
Reply Quote
Even if we dont see an entire rework of GoAK, I'd like to see it fixed at least... the pathing is shoddy and he moves very clunky.
Reply Quote
02/15/2013 08:09 PMPosted by Vlada
We have to use it to be effective, but by using it we are actually hurting our Dps some too.


I don't understand this way of thinking, TBH. Even with that drop every 30s, our damage is more than it would be without Inquisition. Seeing a negative in something that is a purely positive in effect, minus the the obvious 'blah' behind all maintenance buffs.

Anyway, I find your idea about Inquisition buffing the damage on the next X interesting. Probably one of the better ones I've heard, really.


Having Inquisition up at all times isn't negatively effecting our DPS, without it we lost a lot of our damage. With the t15 set bonuses inquisition is better than ever.

Though I do like the idea of it giving us a bonus on next hit, I think buffing censure would be enough to allow us to waste one GCD on it.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
7750
Well, one of the problems being that last expansion we had Divine Purpose and Zealotry.

Now we have to choose between them. Seems like a big burst nerf. Why not simply make "Holy Avenger(Zealotry)" baseline again.

Now we can choose-

1 Divine Purpose: More sustained damage with procs

2 Sanctified Wrath: More Burst during burst time

3 Some random talent they fill the slot with

Also, since we aren't gemming strength this season, we're losing a ton of our spellpower. PvP power does nothing for ret heals now.

Last season it was STR STR STR, because of the added bonus that it increased WoGs.

PvP power needs to affect our heals or I may start gemming strength again. (Which it will, according to notes.)
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]