Fixing Resto Druids In *5* Easy Steps!

90 Draenei Priest
6645
So, it seems that after a whole tier of being 10-30% behind the other classes druids are finally getting some love. A small healing buff and a tweak to our main HOT are the big ones, as well as a change to how Mushrooms function. However this doesn't really address the core reasons why druids are lacking in MOP.

Assuming that 5.2 will at least resemble 5.0/1 in it's damage and movement profiles (which seems reasonable since Blizzard is happy with T14):

- Reliance on static heals (efflor, mushrooms) in a highly mobile raiding environment.
- Reliance on HOTS in a very spikey raid environment.
- No effective burst AOE healing in a regular AOE spike environment.
- Not much interaction between heals.
- Not much control over own mana (outside of Innervate).
- Underwhelming single target heals.

I don't think Blizzard is going to change raid mechanics just because one class doesn't work well with them, so the answer seems to be to adjust the class.

1) Improving Mushrooms.

Wild Mushrooms are meant to be a signature spell for us, but until now they have remained very, very lame.

There are several ways to fix them, many suggested already:
- Increase Wild Mushroom Bloom radius significantly.
- Allow Mushrooms to be placed on the druid, rather than on the ground.
- Allow Mushrooms to regrow themselves after blooming.


But to me, the easiest answer would be a glyph, similar to the Lightspring one, that turns Mushrooms into an smart-heal turret that absorbs and redistributes overhealing.

2) Make Nourish Worth Casting.

As it stands, outside of very select circumstances, our 'main' heal isn't even worth casting. A glyphed Regrowth or HT+NS is almost always better.

I'd like to see something like:
- Nourish now costs 25% less mana when cast on targets affected by Lifebloom.
- Nourish now refreshes the duration of your Rejuvenation.


3) Mobile Burst AOE healing.

This may be helped by fixing mushrooms, but I'd *love* to see some more controllable burst AOE that doesn't rely on people standing in our efflor puddle. I understand that Blizzard is reluctant to buff Wild Growth, so how about adding a little more synergy between our spells.

Something like:
- Using Swiftmend on a target effected by both Rejuvenation and Lifeseed will cause Swiftmend to heal the 4 targets with the lowest hp within 15 yards. If Lifeseed had 3 stacks, this will also apply Rejuvenation to these targets.

Too strong?

4) More Control Over Mana.

I always feel on my druids that I don't have much control over my own mana. All other classes have some active way to restore it in a fight (yes, Innervation - but this is a long cooldown).

I'd love to see some sort of interaction between Lifeseed and mana. Maybe something like:
When Lifeseed blooms, it restores 2% of the druid's maximum mana per stack. Tweak numbers accordingly, naturally.
Too strong?

5) QOL Fixes.

These are just some other druid QOL issues that really should have been dealt with long ago.

- Let us use items in Shapeshift forms. Some can be, some can't be - and it's annoying as hell. Having to go from Cat->caster->cat every time on some quests...rrgh.

- Allow us to go directly from Flight Form to another form, not having to go Caster in between.

- Update the visual effects of Tranquility and Wild Growth. These have been using the same 'meh' effect for years.

Thoughts? Very sleepy this morning, so apologies for any derp or errors.
Edited by Eclipsé on 2/18/2013 4:38 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/17/2013 06:53 PMPosted by Eclipsé
Allow us to go directly from Flight Form to another form, not having to go Caster in between.


Can't we already do that?
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90 Tauren Druid
8710


- Reliance on static heals (efflor, mushrooms) in a highly mobile raiding environment.


Disagree, since that is only 2 heals, one of which is barely ever used. We are not reliant on those two heals. We do rely alot on efflor however it is pretty darned good and doesn't need tweaking imo.


- Reliance on HOTS in a very spikey raid environment.

This is correct and an issue if raid mechanics are going to be the same overall.


- No effective burst AOE healing in a regular AOE spike environment.

Correct. We definately got the shaft on this one. This is our most glaring issue and weakness.


- Not much control over own mana (outside of Innervate).

I don't know what you'd want different. Innervate is some control over our mana since we can use it @80% mana and get full use out of it and have it back up sooner, where as other classes have to wait until they're low on mana (Hymn/Mana tide)
I rather like innervate and think it's perfect. I've no issue with it at all. I'd say priests have a few too many options to regain mana but it is what it is.


- Underwhelming single target heals.


Correct. However, it should be this way. We should be underwhelming in this department. Just as Disc Priests should be underwhelming in raid healing. It's ok for a class to have a weakness. That's the way it should be.

But if they're going to allow disc priests huge aoe heals like they currently have, then indeed our single target garbage should be buffed, by quite a bit.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/17/2013 09:44 PMPosted by Anarri
Allow us to go directly from Flight Form to another form, not having to go Caster in between.


Can't we already do that?


Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It's...weird.

02/17/2013 09:56 PMPosted by Tonydanza
Disagree, since that is only 2 heals, one of which is barely ever used. We are not reliant on those two heals. We do rely alot on efflor however it is pretty darned good and doesn't need tweaking imo.


With the overhaul of Mushrooms in T15, I'm pretty sure we are going to be balanced around using them from now on.

02/17/2013 09:56 PMPosted by Tonydanza
This is correct and an issue if raid mechanics are going to be the same overall.


Any indication they are changing significantly in T15? From what I've seen, they aren't. Still massive spike AOE as a big focus.

I don't know what you'd want different. Innervate is some control over our mana since we can use it @80% mana and get full use out of it and have it back up sooner, where as other classes have to wait until they're low on mana (Hymn/Mana tide)I rather like innervate and think it's perfect. I've no issue with it at all. I'd say priests have a few too many options to regain mana but it is what it is.


It's...a personal thing maybe. I just dont feel like there is enough synergy in our rotations.

02/17/2013 09:56 PMPosted by Tonydanza
Correct. However, it should be this way. We should be underwhelming in this department. Just as Disc Priests should be underwhelming in raid healing. It's ok for a class to have a weakness. That's the way it should be.


But...that's not the way it is. Almost all the other classes seem to be balanced as both single target and raid healers. Disc just got some pretty big adjustments to make it more viable in raids.

02/17/2013 09:56 PMPosted by Tonydanza
But if they're going to allow disc priests huge aoe heals like they currently have, then indeed our single target garbage should be buffed, by quite a bit


Wait...hang on. You just made a big *if* in your point above...which, as you say, isn't the case.

Niche healing is a thing of the past. Paladins and Disc Priests now provide a *lot* of raid aoe healing, and Holy Priests/Shamans can bring the single target hammer down hard.

Yes, disc may have a slight blip in 5.2 until they get enough stats to start rolling shields again, but Blizzard are paying close attention to ensure that they are still viable as both.

Why should Druids persist as the 'HOT' healer?
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90 Worgen Druid
12130
I think tranq needs to just be castable on the move automatically. I know we can take spiritwalker's grace, but there isn't always a shaman.

I don't really want a nourish buff. I like that I don't need to cast it ever. Regrowth gets the job done.

Mana cooldown is fine imo. Long cd means less need to deal with it. I mean, if the numbers need adjusting, of course they should be adjusted (upwards!), but I like not having to babysit the mana ability. I guess it sucks more if you die and get a battle res, while it's still on cd.

Also, regarding the disc talk, first, I'm a noob disc player. I don't know much about what I'm doing on my disc, so if this all seems ignorant of the spec, it's because I am:

I don't think disc is good at single target healing. Like, at all. I think my druid is way superior to my priest at keeping a tank up. I stack grace, I keep a bubble on, and I use atonement/penance/flash heal on the tank as needed. And it seems so weak. Now maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but in my experience, disc is really not good at tank healing.

Also, they suck at aoe healing. I mean, rather, their aoe heal is bad. It's overpowered at the moment, because of divine aegis, but it's a terrible design. It's a stand and long cast, hits a party, but only within 30 yards (of you? or target? I forget). Without divine aegis, I have a sense that disc priest aoe will be awful, except for predictable spikes with spirit shell.

So what does that leave them? Half healer, half dps? I guess it's a role. If I'm wrong about disc's tank healing, please correct me.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
I'd like to see something like:
- Nourish now costs 25% less mana when cast on targets affected by Lifeseed.
- Nourish now refreshes the duration of your Rejuvenation.

First point: Never really going to ever see this in effect. Unless.. You meant "lifebloom" and not "living seed"? Even so, read point below.
Second: Still wouldn't be enough of a reason to make me cast it more than I currently am. I mean, for the most part I only cast it to keep LB going anyway. If you want us to use it for "more" than LB and harmony purposes, gotta come up with something diff.

Something like:
- Using Swiftmend on a target effected by both Rejuvenation and Lifeseed will cause Swiftmend to heal the 4 targets with the lowest hp within 15 yards. If Lifeseed had 3 stacks, this will also apply Rejuvenation to these targets.

This basically means we'd only be good at healing 1 type of group: melee. This is too limiting.

02/17/2013 06:53 PMPosted by Eclipsé
When Lifeseed blooms, it restores 2% of the druid's maximum mana per stack.

I'd hate to re-apply that 3xLB again. Especially considering rdruids are time-limited more than anything.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
To fix the mana issues I think the best solution would be to lower the Innervate cooldown to 90 seconds and slightly buff the net mana that would be gain gained. Right now we get 20% in 3 minutes. This suggestion would provide 28% in 3 minutes. Not a huge change, but I think a shorter cooldown even without a mana gained buff would be nice.

Innervate
30 yd range
Instant 1.5 min cooldown
Causes the target to regenerate 7% of the caster's maximum mana over 10 sec. If cast on self, the caster will regenerate an additional 7% of maximum mana over 10 sec.


Another choice is to bring back a version of Revitalize as a resto baseline passive, without the Replenishment buff however.

Revitalize
Passive
When you periodically heal with your Rejuvenation or Lifebloom spells, you have a chance to instantly regenerate 1% of your total mana. This effect cannot occur more than once every 9 sec.

This passive could use the RPPM system. With a RPPM of 6 and ICD of 9 sec I think it would provide a reasonable mana return without being excessive.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/18/2013 02:57 AMPosted by Mitimem
Another choice is to bring back a version of Revitalize as a resto baseline passive, without the Replenishment buff however.


Apparently we don't remember why Revitalize and Replenishment were removed in the first place.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
Did you have anything of substance to add or do you simply seek kicks by poorly trying to denigrate the opinions of others?

Replenishment was removed as part of the homogenization of buffs/debuffs. Some classes benefited greatly from Replenishment, such as Arcane mages and Warlocks. Blizz has moved away from less passive rotations in favor of active mitigation and active mana management. I also did specifically say "without the Replenishment buff", so I do not understand why you felt like implying that I am ignorant as to why it was removed.

Revitalize was removed with the talent system redesign and the 2/2 Revitalize of 20% chance of 2% mana every 12 seconds is too powerful with how mana regen works in MoP to make that a resto baseline passive. With multiple HoTs spread around the talent would top out at 10% mana per minute and Replenishment could provide up to 6% mana per minute.

There's a significant difference between what I'm suggesting and what Revitalize once was. Revitalize once provided a significant percentage of total mana regen for resto druids during combat. My suggestion would top off at around 6% per minute and doesn't have the Replenishment buff.
Edited by Mitimem on 2/18/2013 4:33 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
I think with the upcoming changes druids are going to be pretty good. I raid with a real good resto druid so he will be doing exceptionally well next tier. I do think that something still needs to be done with mushrooms though.

If anything they should remove the cap on efflo. If they do much more then things will swing in the other direction pretty quickly.
Edited by Sadiemay on 2/18/2013 4:36 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
9685
The main problem I see in wild mushrooms is the fact that it takes so much setup time and heals for a very underwelming amount... what other class has to use 4 gcds to use a single heal? It should drop all 3 mushrooms with a single gcd.
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90 Troll Druid
11150
Resto druids are OP we don't need buffs...
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90 Night Elf Druid
13830
What is this "lifeseed" I keep seeing mentioned? This is the second thread in two days that talked about it.

Our mana management is fine. Yes we have small QoL issues but so does every class. The big issue holding us back is dealing with the AoE burst healing that is so popular in raid design right now. And mushrooms. Why mushrooms are bad and why they aren't going to fix us has been covered so many times it's not worth repeating anymore. The devs know how we feel but have clearly chosen a different direction.
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90 Night Elf Druid
5485
02/17/2013 06:53 PMPosted by Eclipsé
As it stands, outside of very select circumstances, our 'main' heal isn't even worth casting. A glyphed Regrowth or HT+NS is almost always better.


NS is a cooldown; it's supposed to be good when you have it, but you don't always have it. (It's also a talent, but so popular that it might almost as well be baseline. Maybe they should do something about that... although I admit to being a little stumped on what.)

And Regrowth is very expensive (outside OoC, which like NS, you don't always have available); it damn well be better when you're paying that much for it. Which you shouldn't always be. (I don't like the glyph because it removes the Swiftmend interaction -- ironic that you would complain about not enough interaction between heals while using a glyph that removes one of the interactions we do have -- but it's better whether it's glyphed or not, if you're not counting the cost. But you should count the cost. Cost matters.)

Since Nourish is small and cheap, it's not going to be that much of a percentage of your total healing even if you use it often. Which is fine -- for one thing, that kind of statistic doesn't count how much extra Lifebloom duration you got out of Nourish refreshes.

Also, I don't think it's intended to be our "main" heal, whatever that means post-Cata. It's intended to be our cheap heal. And it is indeed cheap, so much so that with decent spirit you actually gain mana while casting it (although not as much as if you just idled, so it's not literally free).

I think the AOE spike "weakness" is actually overstated. Actual spike AOE moves like Unseen Strike generally have cooldowns that are easily long enough for a HoT to top people off before the boss uses it again. (Dissonance Fields *can* go off back-to-back, but you're supposed to stop them from doing that.) Then you have pulsing AOEs/raid DOTs like Titan Gas, Force and Verve, or Rain of Blades -- HoTs work pretty well on them, as long as you don't wait until the raid is already at 25% to start applying them. Those have cooldowns too -- once the phase is over, it's not coming back for usually at least 10 seconds, sometimes much longer.

You might get sniped if you try to heal people up gradually and someone else is spamming an aoe direct heal. But that's as much a player behavior problem as anything -- the raid would still have lived if that person hadn't spent their mana sniping you; they probably just did it because someone with a stupid addon taught them that doing that made them look good and you look bad. Blizzard can't fix stupid, although they should probably put more emphasis on mana and efficiency concerns in encounter design rather than relying so much on spike damage as a threat.

Of course, no druid is going to heal a whole 25-man raid from 25% to full by themselves. They're not supposed to -- 25 mans are supposed to have, and need, a lot of healers. If there's any other class that actually can heal 200-300k damage each from 25 players in a few seconds, that other class needs a nerf bad, because that's 5+ MILLION healing. That kind of thing is supposed to require multiple healers working together, which is why (nearly?) every AOE heal in the game has either a target cap, or DRs.
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90 Troll Druid
11860
4) More Control Over Mana.

I always feel on my druids that I don't have much control over my own mana. All other classes have some active way to restore it in a fight (yes, Innervation - but this is a long cooldown).

I'd love to see some sort of interaction between Lifeseed and mana. Maybe something like:
When Lifeseed blooms, it restores 2% of the druid's maximum mana per stack. Tweak numbers accordingly, naturally.
Too strong?


One problem with mana is not really mana regen itself but the cost of spells, namely rejuv. Considering this has partly been adressed in 5.2 we'll just have to sit and see how the next tier plays out. Most of us will certainly want to keep our 2-pc t13 to couple with the reduced RJ in 5.2 giving us a much more fluent flow of RJ spam when needed. This has always been more of an issue in 25s than in 10s.

My current unbuffed spirit sits at 8673 and I normally only do heroic content - this down for over 11k static reforged into mastery.

To me there is never a reason to go Oom. You should figure out where the issue lies whether that be the raid not doing something right or you not managing your spell casts correctly. But even then you don't have to go Oom - you are in control of that completely.
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90 Troll Druid
11860
Posted by Eclipsé
And Regrowth is very expensive (outside OoC, which like NS, you don't always have available); it damn well be better when you're paying that much for it. Which you shouldn't always be. (I don't like the glyph because it removes the Swiftmend interaction -- ironic that you would complain about not enough interaction between heals while using a glyph that removes one of the interactions we do have -- but it's better whether it's glyphed or not, if you're not counting the cost. But you should count the cost. Cost matters.)


Have you even looked up the difference between casting a 100% guaranteed crit RG vs a HT?

480 mana

What do you get for that?

LS guaranteed.
An avg RG that is equal if not superior to HT.
A cast that is twice is fast
Less snipe considerations

I'm not sure how you place a value on such things but to me it's utterly ridiculous to not cast RG over HT for it's increase mana vs the benefits.

As for the 'loss' of a potential SM target - well that really isn't even a consideration in a real raid environment. Why? Well for one we're not always casting RG and even when we are we're mainly casting it on the tank and the value of a 100% crit +LS far outweighs a potential SM target that we won't cast on the majority of the time anyways (the tanks). SM is strategic as such we are very careful about proper placement for Ellfor. This might not be any concern in LFR but makes all the difference in a normal raid.
Edited by Moophious on 2/18/2013 9:49 AM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Mobile burst healing is not a place where druids need a lot of help. I'm sorry, but try healing as any other spec of healer and tell me how much healing you can do running from side to side on bladelord.

- Reliance on static heals (efflor, mushrooms) in a highly mobile raiding environment.
... and you think other healers aren't dependent on the same things (sanct/rain)?
- Reliance on HOTS in a very spikey raid environment.
This is fair, though most HoTs durations have been massively reduced. Basically HoTs need to do more than Shields to compete with shields, which is why disc is getting nerfed.
- No effective burst AOE healing in a regular AOE spike environment.
Hence the shrooms inc.
- Not much interaction between heals.
mastery, regrowth/rejuv swiftmend, 3rejuv->nourish, Lifebloom refresh, Lifebloom providing mana for other spells, nourish+20% boost
- Not much control over own mana (outside of Innervate).
How is this different from only having divine plea or only having mana tide. Tree of Life form is totally awesome for my druids mana pool btw.
- Underwhelming single target heals.
Really. Nourish hits harder than healing wave. Regrowth averages (due to crit chance) more than Healing Surge. Healing Touch is 35% bigger than Greater Healing Wave.

Look, the reason druids are behind on the meters, requires looking at the meters. People have removed their single target healing keybinds (metaphorically of course), and have spammed AoE healing. The fact is, a disc priest doing rapture+PoH spam (as mana allows) does way more healing than a Druid nourish/CCregrowth-refreshing LB, WG on CD, SM on CD, Rejuv spam(as mana allows).

Druids need 2 things:
-Shrooms to actually act as a burst recovery tool (instead of doing ~220k healing for 3 combined on 6 targets like on live)
-WG/Rejuv buffs (could be spread to LB/SM as well)

Rejuv Buffs are especially nice because a powerful Rejuv means as you get more gear and more spirit, you'll get more output from that spirit.
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90 Troll Druid
11860
02/18/2013 10:40 AMPosted by Pitkanen
I'm sorry, but try healing as any other spec of healer and tell me how much healing you can do running from side to side on bladelord.


I won't disagree with the fundamental argument here because concerning druids on the move you're right. But I did find it sort of amusing that I use Spiritwalker's Grace from Sym during that run to cast tranquility ;).

Look, the reason druids are behind on the meters, requires looking at the meters. People have removed their single target healing keybinds (metaphorically of course), and have spammed AoE healing. The fact is, a disc priest doing rapture+PoH spam (as mana allows) does way more healing than a Druid nourish/CCregrowth-refreshing LB, WG on CD, SM on CD, Rejuv spam(as mana allows).

No that's not the only reason or even the main reason. The reason with say a disc priest is the same reason healing with a H Pally. Sniping. Even in-advert sniping like from Illuminated Healing (Pally mastery) and shields from priests that absorb.

Our issue has been (if we can call it a real issue) is that we're predominantly raid healers. Our healing is hot based. As such, it lacks burst so when all those pretty little dots are rolling here come shields and absorbs and real burst relegating out hots to OH. Sure we can tank heal but even there we're consistent;y beaten to the punch unless we spam RG which is frankly impossible to do.

And let's not forget that casting mechanics from 10m-25 differ in terms of application of direct spells. You'll see a hell of a lot more RGs from me than your typical 25 man raider and for good reasons. There is a gulf between the two both in function and mentality.
Edited by Moophious on 2/18/2013 11:25 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/18/2013 04:23 AMPosted by Mitimem
Did you have anything of substance to add or do you simply seek kicks by poorly trying to denigrate the opinions of others?


Azeroth is better off without int-based and non-scalar regen mechanics. Revitalize might help right now, but it will cause problems two tiers down the road. It has never been the proper way to fix druid regen, ever.
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90 Tauren Druid
11390
For 10 man raiding I have never had very much trouble healing in aoe situations. For most fights I feel we can easily use a tranq to full heal the entire group then have tree form(triple life bloom spam so strong) up for the next and by the time I need another tranq it is back up or I get our other healer to use his cds. For a fight like garalon where there is so much movement I feel as a druid I can heal extremely well especially over our pally healer. I feel our ability to keep rejuv up and rotate tranq and tree works perfect for this fight and many others.

On the other hand I do feel on a fight where I have to spam heal a tank I have problems. I can defiantly keep them alive, but at the cost of nearly all of my mana from regrowth spam. An example would be healing tanks at the start of Grand Empress Shek'zeer. Maybe taking the Soul of the forest talent would be helpful for healing a tank, because of a quicker healing touch and also having 4 piece could help with that so maybe some form of change with that without losing tree would be nice. Though HT costs a bit of mana.
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