On Ranged and Mobility

90 Undead Mage
11870
02/21/2013 03:41 PMPosted by Bándet
The main difference with Hunters casting on the move is that we need to be able to regenerate our focus.


Setting aside any regen talents, as I have excluded them from mobility above with the exception of warlocks who are either all or nothing depending on a single talent..

If you were not allowed to cast SS or CS on the move, you would still have auto shot, pet attacks, and a base focus regen that would allow you to cast signature shots without any outside regen. I will give you that MM would suffer the most, as they would not be able to maintain Imp SS, but then, mages have varying degrees of damage on the move in accordance with spec, I would be fine with another (or all classes) be the same way.

Looking through some logs, our hunter's "passive" damage (BM) was around 55% for most of the fights I looked at. Between pet auto attacks and auto shot (neither of which cost focus), that's a pretty hefty amount to get from sending your pet in and right clicking the boss.

Now I understand there is some interaction between using focus costing shots and the damage the pet does, so we'll cut the pet's damage in half and you still end up with around 40% of "possible" without ever needing to fire a single focus costing shot.

Once you consider that base regen of focus is 4 (pretty sure its 4?) per second, you would be able, at a minimum, to fire off an arcane shot every 5 seconds with nothing but passive regen.

I know a lot of classes will come here and say "but my class is special because of X", and that's fine. But what I was envisioning when I was typing this out is a fight similar to the end boss of The Nexus - a fight where you must keep moving or die. An extended movement period of say 1 minute. Where overwriting dots is less of a concern since they will be falling off on their own. Where stopping to cast anything means your death (exaggeration, but it fits the scenario I was thinking of).

What would you do for a full minute of movement? If there were to be a raid boss like this, how would you justify bringing some classes when they are the very low end of damage on the move vs other classes when they are the very high end. Obviously in a situation like this, melee would have no issue. Simply hop while you dps. But for the ranged classes? We'd see some classes that manage to shrug it off like nothing is happening, while others would be hamstrung.

I would like to see a game where the ranged classes are a lot more similar in terms of what they can do while on the move for extended periods of time. I would also like to see that damage range be similar to what the melee classes are subjected to when forced off the boss for extended periods of time.
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90 Troll Hunter
11450
02/21/2013 04:13 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
The main difference with Hunters casting on the move is that we need to be able to regenerate our focus.


Setting aside any regen talents, as I have excluded them from mobility above with the exception of warlocks who are either all or nothing depending on a single talent..

If you were not allowed to cast SS or CS on the move, you would still have auto shot, pet attacks, and a base focus regen that would allow you to cast signature shots without any outside regen.


Hunter focus regen is nothing like rogue/monk/druid energy regen. If we can't SS/CS on the move, we can't do any damage. Balance druids will be an incredibly mobile arena class by comparison.
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90 Night Elf Monk
8430
Blizz could give hunters a buff when stationary that increases the damage of all their cast time abilities. Would let them be used on the move for focus regen, but would do more damage when you stand in one spot. Have seen that done to pretty good effect in other games.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
I think we need to go back to the days of vanilla / bc, where casters and healers actually had to cast and movement was pretty much prohibitive.
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90 Pandaren Priest
10270
OK. Then remove all interrupts except for, like 4. Like back in vanilla.
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100 Night Elf Druid
18245
02/22/2013 05:46 PMPosted by Terrortician
OK. Then remove all interrupts except for, like 4. Like back in vanilla.


There's only been like 2 new interrupts added that didn't come with new classes or replace an inferior version. Vanilla still had Kick, Pummel, Earth Shock, Counterspell, Silence, Spell Lock, and Feral Charge.

If you only remember 4 interrupts in Vanilla, it's most likely because the top DPS classes could completely outpace and blow through healer output.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
18680
Here we go again. Mobility for a ranged class is only as good as the static dps they gain from it. For example, a hunter might deal 80 dps while moving and while stationary during a fight, while a mage might pull 100 dps while stationary and 60 dps while moving, well if you are moving half the fight both classes end up pulling the same dps.

Is that how it is currently balanced? No. But that is as far as dps gained from mobility goes. It is not some magical talent that benefits a class in addition to their stationary dps being balanced with every other ranged class.
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90 Undead Mage
11870
Here we go again. Mobility for a ranged class is only as good as the static dps they gain from it. For example, a hunter might deal 80 dps while moving and while stationary during a fight, while a mage might pull 100 dps while stationary and 60 dps while moving, well if you are moving half the fight both classes end up pulling the same dps.

Is that how it is currently balanced? No. But that is as far as dps gained from mobility goes. It is not some magical talent that benefits a class in addition to their stationary dps being balanced with every other ranged class.


If the damage range was not what it is now, that could be a feasible argument. However, that's not how it is now. What we have now is something like this:

Damage while moving
Hunter - 100%
Warlock - 100%
Ele - 95%+
Fire - 65-75%
Frost / Arcane - 30-40%
Balance / Shadow - 20-30%

By the math you've given above, if you have to move for 1/2 of the fight, a balance druid would need to do approximately 180% of a hunter's or warlock's damage for them to be "balanced". That's not even remotely close to how it is now. If it was, you can bet that hunters and warlocks would scream bloody murder as any fight that had less movement, they would get destroyed.

Once again, if the range was 20-40% instead of 20-100%, there wouldn't be an issue.
Edited by Howmanylichs on 2/23/2013 10:57 AM PST
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100 Goblin Warlock
19020
02/22/2013 07:52 PMPosted by Resonance
Feral Charge


Was not an interupt. Skull bash was added in maybe wotlk or cata because druids did not have an interupt. Feral charge was always in the past just root for bear charging in and a leap behind and daze for kitties.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
18680
02/23/2013 10:48 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
If the damage range was not what it is now, that could be a feasible argument. However, that's not how it is now. What we have now is something like this:

That isn't a problem with mobility, it is a problem with damage values and the dps provided by individual classes, and mobility phases don't even come close to representing 50% of raid combat.
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90 Undead Mage
11870
02/23/2013 11:33 AMPosted by Spinnerdh
If the damage range was not what it is now, that could be a feasible argument. However, that's not how it is now. What we have now is something like this:

That isn't a problem with mobility, it is a problem with damage values and the dps provided by individual classes, and mobility phases don't even come close to representing 50% of raid combat.


Spinner... you could be given a button on your hunter that instantly kills anything you target. You would call this "fine" and "balanced" and would probably find a way to ask for hunter buffs and nerfs to other classes. At the very least you would complain about how its boring and still isn't enough in pvp because other hunters can hit their button faster than you can.

Unless you have something constructive to post that doesn't involve "hunters are fine", just move along. Hunters are not "fine" in this avenue. You have no talents and only 1 glyph for 1 spec involved in doing damage while on the move. You had an aspect, and bad hunters like yourself cried and cried about how you just macro'd it to your casted shots until Blizzard gave up and just gave you full mobility for free - including talents that you previously had to stand still for. They did this right after they said they wanted moving to be "painful" for ranged.

When confronted about this, GC said they "might" introduce sniper training. At the 15% this used to be, you would still be at 85% of your full damage, keeping your on-the-move damage still well above most of the other ranged and still, this would cost you nothing.

Warlocks at least have to deal with a snare, even if it can be gamed. Ele has to deal with a 5% cast time increase on LB, even if it ends up not really meaning much. What do hunters have to deal with? Facing their target? Where is your drawback?

Bring the classes closer together. Do not bring most of them in line and leave 1 well above the rest because... well... just because that's how hunters want it.
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100 Night Elf Druid
18245
02/23/2013 11:25 AMPosted by Purebalance
Feral Charge


Was not an interupt. Skull bash was added in maybe wotlk or cata because druids did not have an interupt. Feral charge was always in the past just root for bear charging in and a leap behind and daze for kitties.


I know my own class, thanks.

Bear charge absolutely interrupted before Skull Bash was added or the kitty charge version existed.

http://www.wowprovider.com/Old.aspx?talent=11215875_11
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100 Dwarf Hunter
18680
02/23/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
Spinner... you could be given a button on your hunter that instantly kills anything you target. You would call this "fine" and "balanced" and would probably find a way to ask for hunter buffs and nerfs to other classes. At the very least you would complain about how its boring and still isn't enough in pvp because other hunters can hit their button faster than you can.

Hyberbole much?

02/23/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
Unless you have something constructive to post that doesn't involve "hunters are fine", just move along. Hunters are not "fine" in this avenue. You have no talents and only 1 glyph for 1 spec involved in doing damage while on the move. You had an aspect, and bad hunters like yourself cried and cried about how you just macro'd it to your casted shots until Blizzard gave up and just gave you full mobility for free - including talents that you previously had to stand still for. They did this right after they said they wanted moving to be "painful" for ranged.

I didn't say anything about hunters. Mobility is an aspect of a dps spec that should be calculated into their overall dps, notice how even though hunters are the single most mobile ranged class in the game that mages and warlocks are still ahead of us? Aspect dancing was a terrible design, blizzard tried it in multiple different ways, one with and one without the GCD, both were terrible. Either we would just macro them into our shots or we would just be in one the entire time because swapping was so overly clunky in PvP.

Many classes have varying degrees of mobility, shamans and warlocks right now are quite mobile as well. Warlocks are just like hunters except they suffer from KC's movement slow and all that ele shamans have to cast is the occasional non-instant lava burst.

02/23/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
What do hunters have to deal with? Facing their target? Where is your drawback?

Why do we need a drawback? Many classes can do things that other classes can't do, many classes have positive aspects to them, why should every positive aspect be met with a drawback?

Hunters had this mobility the entirety of cataclysm, the only difference was that some of our steady/cobra shots had 10% less AP scaling. That was barely a dps sacrifice at all. Yet now that it is removed because it was a pointless mechanic that did nothing but force us to make bird sounds all the time, now you choose to get all butthurt that hunters are suddenly these demi-gods of mobility because we no longer have the drawback of using fox to slightly reduce the damage of abilities that already did terrible damage?

Seriously stop with all of this whining and hyperbole. Understand how balance works will you? Just because class A has 10 times better mobility than class B doesn't mean that class A is going to do 10 times the dps of class B, so stop assuming so.

Some classes have terrible mobility like arcane mages while some classes have amazing mobility like ele shamans. Yet arcane mages are ahead of ele shamans by quite a bit as far as dps goes. Mobility is merely another factor when calculating overall static dps. This is common sense and I don't believe that you are stupid enough to not know this.

Hunters can dps on the move at all times and the only downside is that about one tenth of their cobra shots deal 10% less damage? Balanced!

Hunters can dps on the move at all times and the downside of fox reducing the damage of about one tenth of cobra shots has been removed? RIDICULOUSLY OP, NERF NOW!
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90 Undead Mage
11870
Look spinner...

You obviously don't read for comprehension very well, so this one last time I will cut you a break:

Of those 6 classes, only 1 has the ability to retain 100% damage while on the move (hunters) For now, I will leave hunters out of this discussion as frankly, the system they are using for mobility makes zero sense to me.

Of the remaining 5 (looking at 5.2 here for clarification), only mages have the ability to cast a number of [snip]

We're now down to 4 classes. 1 of these can use a glyph that allows them to cast their "filler" spell while on the move (shaman). And 1 class has the ability to talent into the ability to cast everything on the move (warlocks). Both of these options have a drawback. Personally, I feel the drawback on either is fairly small, but I am sure that someone will disagree with me. To each their own.

This leaves us with just 2 classes that have no real "on the move" rotation. [snip] both have a spammable dot, the difference is that those dots don't have the direct damage component to them that moonfire / SW:P do.


Some more discussion happens, and a suggestion for bringing every ranged spec closer together is put forth:

Some very easy solutions:

- Hunters need an incentive to sit still. Right now, there is no reason a hunter should ever stop moving. Ever. Sniper training won't be enough, and while it won't be popular, they need to make the cast time abilities they have require no movement. No more steady / cobra / aimed / barrage on the move.
- Shaman need to have Unleashed lightning baseline, with a different proc on LvB. It needs to be a reduced cast time still - perhaps cut the cast time in half? Enough so they still need to stop every once in a while, if even for 3/4 of a second.
- Warlocks need... idk. KJC needs to go back to what it was maybe? Harsher movement penalty? I honestly don't know what I would do with them.
- Mages need... if all of the above goes through, nothing. They could and should make scorch baseline - this solves mobility but still severely limits damage for extended movement.
- Moonkins need to be able to cast wrath while moving. That's it. It would really do enough for them in terms of mobile dps if we're bringing everyone in line.
- Shadow needs something that won't kill it in pvp. Mind spike while moving synergizes too well with their current glyphs. Perhaps: Glyph of Unleashed Spikes: Your mind spike can now be cast while moving. Cannot be used in conjunction with Glyph of Mind Spike.


Some discussion about those ideas ensues. Good discussion - from people who understand the ramifications in pve and pvp. Not to put their class ahead of everyone else. People who are not you seem to understand that different classes are different, and while someone may be 2x as good at damage on the move as them, it shouldn't ever be 5x as good.

Bandet then talks about needing to regen focus, and I show that there is enough damage from auto shot and pet attacks that focus regen isn't really a concern, if everyone is brought closer together.

Then you come in:

Here we go again. Mobility for a ranged class is only as good as the static dps they gain from it. For example, a hunter might deal 80 dps while moving and while stationary during a fight, while a mage might pull 100 dps while stationary and 60 dps while moving, well if you are moving half the fight both classes end up pulling the same dps.

Is that how it is currently balanced? No. But that is as far as dps gained from mobility goes. It is not some magical talent that benefits a class in addition to their stationary dps being balanced with every other ranged class.


You claim that everything is balanced around our ability to move - those who don't move well do better when they stand still. Those who can move do worse.

I then point out that it's not that the ranged are "close" and this can happen, it's that there is a huge gap between top and bottom. 20% to 100%. I even made you a little quasi-chart. This chart lists Hunters, Warlocks, and Ele as the top.

Then I remember that you are the exact same guy who claimed hunters got nothing but nerf after nerf up to and after 5.1. You claimed hunters needed buffs, and that all of these nerfs you were getting were killing your class. Even when I listed every last change that had been made to hunters and there were exactly 0 nerfs, you still claimed your class was "nerfed to the ground!"

You are an unreasonable little man who has a very tenuous grip on reality. Your opinion is that whatever your class is constantly getting nerfed - even when its buffed. There is no having a discussion with you, as you cannot fathom that someone would want something good for the game and that it's not always about nerfing the hunters.
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100 Orc Warlock
13535
02/17/2013 11:55 PMPosted by Luciferkrist
The "Drawback" for us locks.... is pretty meh in PvE. I move and cast sometimes just because I can.
I rarely stand still in pve too lol.
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100 Human Rogue
12190
02/23/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
Spinner... you could be given a button on your hunter that instantly kills anything you target. You would call this "fine" and "balanced" and would probably find a way to ask for hunter buffs and nerfs to other classes. At the very least you would complain about how its boring and still isn't enough in pvp because other hunters can hit their button faster than you can.
wow I wish they still allowed signatures here that would make a great one.
Edited by Stabetha on 2/24/2013 1:29 AM PST
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58 Human Death Knight
0
the problem is that hunters don't do "max damage" at all times. hunters dps is already throttled back by the focus system and further penalizing hunters with mobility issues was stupid and ill conceived.

when hunters are forced into casting steady/cobra shot, hunter damage takes a nose dive. making hunters stop to cast steady/cobra shot for 6-10 second (depending on buffs and debuffs) would be like making mana classes classes stop to regenerate mana after every 4 spell casts.

bm hunters have a bigger chunk or their damage coming from pets, but pet ai is retarded and unreliable as well as trying to keeping your pet alive. there are some people who hate pets and hate playing bm because relying on a pet as well as managing the hunter isn't fun.

even after the "mop hunter fixes" hunters still have to cast 4-5 steady shots to get back to full focus which is 8-10 seconds of relying on pet and auto shot for damage.

it isn't fair or balanced to shackle hunter with focus and a lack of mobility. i don't think aimed shot needs to be able to be cast on the run, but steady/cobra should have been able to be cast on the run since cata.
Edited by Squiggle on 2/24/2013 1:41 AM PST
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90 Undead Mage
11870
the problem is that hunters don't do "max damage" at all times. hunters dps is already throttled back by the focus system and further penalizing hunters with mobility issues was stupid and ill conceived.

when hunters are forced into casting steady/cobra shot, hunter damage takes a nose dive. making hunters stop to cast steady/cobra shot for 6-10 second (depending on buffs and debuffs) would be like making mana classes classes stop to regenerate mana after every 4 spell casts.

bm hunters have a bigger chunk or their damage coming from pets, but pet ai is retarded and unreliable as well as trying to keeping your pet alive. there are some people who hate pets and hate playing bm because relying on a pet as well as managing the hunter isn't fun.

even after the "mop hunter fixes" hunters still have to cast 4-5 steady shots to get back to full focus which is 8-10 seconds of relying on pet and auto shot for damage.

it isn't fair or balanced to shackle hunter with focus and a lack of mobility. i don't think aimed shot needs to be able to be cast on the run, but steady/cobra should have been able to be cast on the run since cata.


Balance druids must stop to cast to advance their eclipse bars. They must hit an eclipse state in order to trigger their haste buff. This has a much larger impact on their overall dps than a hunter's steady or cobra shot. I have a hunter. I think MoP hunters are stuck in a cata mentality where SS and CS are the only ways to regen focus. No, focus is not the same as monk or rogue energy - but its similar enough. It's actually a lot closer to destro mana than anything come to think of it. But hunters have been given a tier with focus regen in mind. Fervor, which is the most straightforward of the 3, returns 100 focus (50 now, 50 over 10 sec). This averages out to a bit more than 3 focus per second. Even at 0 haste, a hunter's base regen is 4. This means you're regen is about 7. This means you can arcane shot (on average) once every 3 seconds without ever hitting steady shot or cobra shot. Factor in auto shot, and pet damage and with the inability to cast SS or CS on the move, hunters would still retain about 50%-65% of their damage during an extended movement period (2 minutes?).

Let's not forget that before they removed aspect of the fox, hunters were never allowed to cast steady or cobra while moving until level 81.
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58 Human Death Knight
0
Balance druids must stop to cast to advance their eclipse bars. They must hit an eclipse state in order to trigger their haste buff. This has a much larger impact on their overall dps than a hunter's steady or cobra shot. I have a hunter. I think MoP hunters are stuck in a cata mentality where SS and CS are the only ways to regen focus. No, focus is not the same as monk or rogue energy - but its similar enough. It's actually a lot closer to destro mana than anything come to think of it. But hunters have been given a tier with focus regen in mind. Fervor, which is the most straightforward of the 3, returns 100 focus (50 now, 50 over 10 sec). This averages out to a bit more than 3 focus per second. Even at 0 haste, a hunter's base regen is 4. This means you're regen is about 7. This means you can arcane shot (on average) once every 3 seconds without ever hitting steady shot or cobra shot. Factor in auto shot, and pet damage and with the inability to cast SS or CS on the move, hunters would still retain about 50%-65% of their damage during an extended movement period (2 minutes?).

Let's not forget that before they removed aspect of the fox, hunters were never allowed to cast steady or cobra while moving until level 81.


i said when focus was implemented that cobra/steady needed to be cast on the run with out an aspect. i also said aof would not fix hunter focus issues.

1 arcane shot every 3-4 seconds is less than half damage - even for bm. when hunters can't pool focus, hunters can't do damage. 1 arcane every three seconds means no signature shots, no serpent sting, no kill command, etc...

7 focus per seconds is crap for damage and making hunters stand still for 8-10 seconds to begin the focus dump phase is overly penalizing. there is no way you can compare focus to mana because mana is no where as limiting of a resources as focus.

in order to make hunters less mobile, hunters need to have a longer focus dump phase and a shorter focus regen phase. the current focus design sucks.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
18680
Look spinner...

You obviously don't read for comprehension very well, so this one last time I will cut you a break:

I didn't bring hunters into the thread, I merely used them as an example where I could have inserted any ranged class into. You were the one that starting throwing fits about how I "Could be given a button on my hunter that instantly kills anything I target. Yet would call this "fine" and "balanced" and would probably find a way to ask for hunter buffs and nerfs to other classes."

I used hunters as a fill in the blank example, you are the one who brought their mobility in specific into the discussion.

02/24/2013 12:42 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
You are an unreasonable little man who has a very tenuous grip on reality. Your opinion is that whatever your class is constantly getting nerfed - even when its buffed. There is no having a discussion with you, as you cannot fathom that someone would want something good for the game and that it's not always about nerfing the hunters.

I am not the one who brought hunter mobility into this discussion, that was you. Until you brought it up I was talking about the idea of mobility in general.

But seriously, I came into this thread with comments about general mobility, you turn it into a discussion about hunters, I gives you facts about how despite being the most mobile class in the game that we still aren't the top dps to prove my point about mobility in general, yet you still generalize me as blatantly defending my class when it is "overpowered"?

You are quite literally trolling in your own thread.

02/24/2013 01:28 AMPosted by Stabetha
wow I wish they still allowed signatures here that would make a great one.

Perhaps, but for you a better one might be

- Bandwagon jumper and proud.

Oh, I defend my class? I don't go into hunter threads asking for straight nerfs? I guess that makes me like most other posters in this forum. Lately I have said time and time again that hunters are fine (not super great but not underpowered either) and that our largest issue is class design.

So please continue to play that old song for us about how I am just so totally *Fill in the blank*. Yes I understand that I have been wrong before, just like everybody else, but that doesn't mean that you can or should keep writing off my posts by saying nothing else other than "Oh, it's this guy again."
Edited by Spinnerdh on 2/25/2013 4:39 PM PST
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