Reckful's Math behind PvPPower vs Resil.

90 Night Elf Druid
9935
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEY4_R60PkE

Basically Gemming Full PvP Power gives you around 3% more damage compared to Full PvP Resil giving 12% damage reduction.

Can't do damage if you're dead.
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90 Human Warrior
7780
old news
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90 Night Elf Druid
9935
02/21/2013 06:14 AMPosted by Kerrighan
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If it's so damn old why are you still doing it wrong?
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
4770
What I have learned is that Warriors ignore resil anyways.
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85 Undead Mage
6550
02/21/2013 06:22 AMPosted by Xenthegreat
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If it's so damn old why are you still doing it wrong?


It's been known that Resil>PvP Power since fairly early in the season.

For some DPS who just do BGs/RBGs PvP Power is the better choice... buuuut most people should be going resilience.
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90 Human Mage
10320
02/21/2013 06:27 AMPosted by Mvp
What I have learned is that Warriors ignore resil anyways.
I hit a full Mal Warrior gemming full PvP power for 240k yesterday.
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Shamefully deleted in light of realizing that I'm a moron.

To make up for me being a snarky idiot and jumping far too quickly to conclusions, I submit, for your approval, Robert Meowney Jr.:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxa351DLQh1qlq2w9.gif
Edited by Tzerogen on 2/21/2013 8:34 PM PST
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90 Troll Hunter
5770
My advice to anyone looking to find a good balance between the two without crunching numbers (albeit a little more expensive) is what I did. I gemmed 100% for PVP power, got destroyed, and then began slowly bringing up my Resilience one gem at a time, a few matches at a time.

I've reached what I feel is my ultimate comfort level now. It was more costly and time-consuming than I would have liked, but by testing as I made the changes I feel I'm in the best place for myself personally.
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90 Undead Priest
7885
My advice to anyone looking to find a good balance between the two without crunching numbers (albeit a little more expensive) is what I did. I gemmed 100% for PVP power, got destroyed, and then began slowly bringing up my Resilience one gem at a time, a few matches at a time.

I've reached what I feel is my ultimate comfort level now. It was more costly and time-consuming than I would have liked, but by testing as I made the changes I feel I'm in the best place for myself personally.


This is the best place for yourself, and others? Why should we listen to you? the 1200 bracket is a place you can literally play with cata gear and win around half the matches.
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90 Undead Rogue
8050
02/21/2013 09:07 AMPosted by Tzerogen
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This.

It's also worth mentioning that the mathematics he's doing are actually wrong.

If you have 48% PvP Power and hit for 14,800, then regem pvp power and reach a hit of 15,300, dividing 15,300 by 14,800 will give you 1.033, ergo .033 above your normal damage 1, 3.3%, right?

Wrong. Why? Because his base values are messed up in the first place. If you hit for 14,800, and go up 5% in damage, you're now hitting for 15,540 damage. Now, you may say, Tzero, come on, you're splitting hairs here! The difference between 15,300 and 15,540 is negligible!

Wrong again. Because divide 15,540 by 14,800 and guess what you get? 1.05, which is 5%! The same number that your character sheet will tell you when you check your damage increase.

So in the damage portion of his math, he made a basic mental math error in putting 15,300 as a 5% increase on 14,800.

Now, for damage reductions.

64% -> 68% right?

We'll use his numbers again. You take a mean powershot crit for 100k.

At 64% resilience, you are taking 36% of the baseline 100k, ergo, taking 36,000 damage from it.

At 68% resilience, take 32% of normal damage, take 32,000 damage, all correct.

But here's the thing. You don't take the percentage differential between 36,000 and 32,000. You are working with percentages from the original 100,000 remember?

So you have reduced damage by 4,000, not out of 36,000, but out of 100,000. 4%.

You'll see all I've done here is take percentages, calculate that percentage between two numbers, then spoon feed it back to you as if I've done something amazing.

Protip: Your character sheet doesn't actually lie to you.

I love Reckful, and his videos, and he is no way a bad player, but his math in this video somehow ended up as 2+2=6-4=3

Ninja edit: Worth mentioning that resilience is obviously better, but it's not a "math thing", it's a logic thing. Gemming resilience in competitive gameplay simply allows you to play more offensively, without worrying about glass cannoning because you're in full power gems.

The problem isn't all with his math, it's also with his terminology. 36000 to 32000 is a higher percentage than 4%, but we're calculating total damage reduction, not damage reduced from already-reduced damage. When you do that, the percentage will actually change for every different number you get hit with.


noone cares
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90 Troll Hunter
5770
My advice to anyone looking to find a good balance between the two without crunching numbers (albeit a little more expensive) is what I did. I gemmed 100% for PVP power, got destroyed, and then began slowly bringing up my Resilience one gem at a time, a few matches at a time.

I've reached what I feel is my ultimate comfort level now. It was more costly and time-consuming than I would have liked, but by testing as I made the changes I feel I'm in the best place for myself personally.


This is the best place for yourself, and others? Why should we listen to you? the 1200 bracket is a place you can literally play with cata gear and win around half the matches.


I never suggested people gem as I have. I outlined a method to find a personal comfort point with your resilience.
Also, judging my skill based on an armory page rating is a joke. I haven't kept to the same 2s team for more than a week at the most and haven't done any 3s at all in a few weeks now. Great job being a complete *%%#**%@ to someone trying to offer advice though. Very noble of you.
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It's also worth mentioning that the mathematics he's doing are actually wrong.

If you have 48% PvP Power and hit for 14,800, then regem pvp power and reach a hit of 15,300, dividing 15,300 by 14,800 will give you 1.033, ergo .033 above your normal damage 1, 3.3%, right?

Wrong. Why? Because his base values are messed up in the first place. If you hit for 14,800, and go up 5% in damage, you're now hitting for 15,540 damage. Now, you may say, Tzero, come on, you're splitting hairs here! The difference between 15,300 and 15,540 is negligible!

Wrong again. Because divide 15,540 by 14,800 and guess what you get? 1.05, which is 5%! The same number that your character sheet will tell you when you check your damage increase.


No, you're wrong. PVP Power is a flat percent increase to dmg. Assuming:

10k strike. 0% PVP Power

@48% PVP Power, 10K becomes a 14.8K strike.
@53% PVP Power, 10K becomes a 15.3K strike

You assumed that going from 48 to 53% would add 5% damage to the 14.8K strike. That assumption was incorrect as you simply added 5% to your PVP power stat. Simply put, and this is what Reckful was trying to say in the vid, a 5% increase in PVP power is not the same as a 5% increase to raw damage. In fact it is raw increase of 1-((1+.x)/(1+.y)) where x equals starting PVP power and y equals endstate PVP Power. Interestingly enough, to get the 5% increase in raw dmg you referred to, just switch the formula around a bit to get: .05=1-((1+.48)/(1+.y)) and solve for y which gives you .557 or 55.7% PVP power.

Normally I don't post but you were pretty quick about calling out other peoples math. Peace out.

Edit: Pro(er) tip: Your character sheet doesn't lie to you but it still doesn't tell the whole story.
Edited by Huminal on 2/21/2013 12:12 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
19685
PvP power has a unique property to it. It appears linear at first, and it is depending on how you look at it. In another sense, however, it DRs with itself. (I'm assuming pvp power stacks multiplicatively with itself (just like pvp resil), if that is wrong then this whole post is wrong)

Things like pvp power, int, str, and agi all are all similar; they increase your raw damage output. If you have 100 int, and you gem for 1 more int, you just increased your dps by 1%. However, if you gain another 1 int, you only increase your dps by 0.99% Once you get to 200 int, you are only increasing your dps by 0.5% if you add another point of int.

With that being said, each point of int still gives you the same damage increase in terms of raw numbers. For example, if you do 100 dps (with 100 int) and gain 1 more int, you will do 101 dps. If you gain another point of int, you do 102 dps, and so on.

So in one sense, pvp power is linear because it increases your damage by the same amount each time, but in another sense it DRs because you need more of it to see the same percentage increase. It is this strange phenomena that is causing the arguments in the previous posts, but it is all really about perspective. Two different ways of looking at the same thing.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10125
Gonna copy/paste something Vanguards said a while back:

There's a common misconception that PvP Power negates Resilience. This actually isn't true because Resilience is factored in after PvP Power in a sense. Lets say a Frostbomb hits for 100,000. With 50% PvP Power it hits for 150,000. However, if a person has 50% Resilience, it would hit for 75,000 in the end.

Now lets pretend the Mage gemmed more PvP Power and the target gemmed more resilience. The PvP Power became roughly 60%. The Resilience became 55%.
Frost Bomb not hits for 160,000, but with 55% Resilience it hits for 72,000. This is not the exact PvP Power to Resilience scale; but that should give you the picture that Resilience = generally more damage reduction than PvP Power's increased damage point to point with full PvP Gear.

edit: In the end you can't just go one way or the other for everyone. If you play a class like Enhance Shamans, gemming Resilience is probably smart since they get trained over half the time. If you play a class like Warriors, it's probably good to use PvP Power against non-Casters and Rogues.

If you have enough conquest points it's probably best to have 2 sets ready. Wear the set depending on if the team is going to hit you or not. However with the upgrading gear factored in this season it's going to be a lot harder to do this.
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Mathful

HURHURHUHRUHURHUR
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90 Human Paladin
6815
02/21/2013 06:14 AMPosted by Kerrighan
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90 Human Warrior
8720
PvP Resil > Power is only true for some classes.

Resil scaling better than power is what's always true.

Judging power versus resil is a logic game, not a numbers one. Warriors almost always choose to go full power in 5.1 (to the point of you're pretty much doing it wrong if you're not) because a) We have high passive defenses already with 25% defensive stance plus fairly good active CDs; this is the primary reason, and b) secondarily, we already do good damage, so going for a Power build accentuates our strengths but doesn't create any real weaknesses. (As a side note, I tested some arenas, 2s at various levels and 3s in the 1600 range, as full resil, and did not see a noticeable increase in my survivability, but I did see a large drop in damage.)

A direct opposite would be mages, who typically gem full resil. They already have very high damage - they don't need to increase it any more by gemming power; to do so would provide not useful returns. However, they're squishy as hell, so they go resil to shore up their weakness without hurting their strength.

Somewhere in the middle would be Ret pallies, a third case. They also should be gemming full resil, but for different reasons. Ret gems resil because its squishiness forces it to, rather than because its damage is high enough to not need a boost. They CAN gem power, and but out stupid damage that makes people think 5stack TfB was balanced, but they die in two globals if they do, so no one does.

Power vs. Resil just boils down to "Is my class tanky or squishy? Is my base damage high or low?" Based on that, you decide whether you need to go for an offensive or defensive setup or (like Locks) can freely choose between either.
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