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So the only spell that can reliably stack Grace three... shouldn't be used to stack grace.

Does that feel wrong to anyone?

Not really. The fact that Grace has 3 stacks means that it's mostly meant for focused single target healing rather than spot/raid healing. If I'm usually raid healing, it stands to reason that offensive Penance should be used for that purpose in conjunction with Atonement, rather than using a defensive Penance to build Grace.

02/22/2013 03:01 PMPosted by Ceddya

It was also pretty funny seeing a Holy Paladin's IH absorbing for as much as my SS did.

How is that funny?? That sounds terrible!

I don't know man, from your post it doesn't sound like were in a "good" place. Sounds like we're going to be way behind on all fights with constant AoE damage (esp HM), which you mentioned is pretty much all of them.

This is all very dis-heartening. Why oh why are they making these changes this way...there's so many other options that seem more logical without completely revamping our spec mid stream..

*sigh*

I hate mushrooms...

Correct me if I am wrong:

PW:S is able to crit, but is nerfed by default because of mastery nerf. We end up with a weaker shield wich is more unstable.

Rapture being nerfed by both is mana proc and the fact it doesnt benefit from trinket, we get a PW:S that cost (on the average) more than before. (and weaker generally). If you spam it alot it might be more mana efficient, but thats gonna be the more boring healing of your life.

The before new DA is weaker than the last one when we crit....basically we lost the 100% more healing on crit, and got a weaker DA out of the crit that it was.

We got a 10% increase healing from mastery, but given the crit nerf and mastery shield nerf, this 10% will be weaker (if you have 10% crit, wich always happen in raid, its a nerf, and the more you have the more it is...)

Dont let Blizz tell you they 'buffed' things, its false. I looked at it from all side, was happy at first, but after some math...I was really disappointed, specially because they made it look like a buff.

er, I thought it was pretty understood Disc was getting nerfed this patch? Where did Blizzard say anything was a throughput buff? The mastery and DA change is a mechanics change that is hopefully better for the class, not a straight nerf or buff.

Also this:

02/25/2013 03:01 PMPosted by Mysidehealth

The before new DA is weaker than the last one when we crit....basically we lost the 100% more healing on crit, and got a weaker DA out of the crit that it was.

is incorrect. The new DA bubbles are slightly larger.

02/25/2013 03:14 PMPosted by Evry

is incorrect. The new DA bubbles are slightly larger.

The tradeoff tho, is barely worth it. They added that clause to the mastery to increase healing across the board, but who are we kidding, that miniscule amount is not going to make up for what we lost. Taking our ability to "truely crit" and save someone, was a unseen haymaker from the left.

SS change, rapture change, DA change...All were foreseen and completely called for. This revamp is just...Weird, convoluted, seems ill-planned.

And Evry, I assume you have experience with say HoF heroics? On 25m at that? Cause well, These changes are going to leave us in a very handicapped state(25m), I don't understand how people do not see that...In 10m you get to use all of your toolkit, and in good diversity. In 25m, a good disc priest still uses his entire toolkit, but you do need to have the throughput to throw out AoE heals (and a spell to do it.) after the fact...and by after the fact, I mean you've used your SS on the burst, and your Inner Focus for forced crits (If they will even do that anymore), and now were in constant AoE damage pulse mode (Majority of fights in 5.2). Now obviously there are other healers in your group to heal people up, but frankly, in 25m, all the healers need to be getting people up. We will effectively (outside of using single target ability's for atonement AoE healing) be filling an ocean with a garden hose, and the other healers are using a big watermain pipe.

Having mastery boost my normal heals by a miniscule amount in a trade off for having a miniscule amount of additional DA and no longer critting and saving someone from brink of death...common now? It's highly disappointing, and very game impacting. Also, having our current PoH doing ~35k on 5 people (non crit) going to ~38k on 5 people (never critting for more than that initial heal), is a swift kick in the !@# if your doing 25m heroics, in my opinion at least.

Also, could someone please explain if this very simplified chain of events looks correct:
(Assuming there is one healer)
[New method]
Tank HP = 200
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = 25
Cast say, Flash heal (new crit method) for say 51, absorb of say 51
Tank HP = 25 + 51 + 51 = 127
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = -48

[Old Method]
Tank HP = 200
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = 25
Cast say, Flash heal (old method) for 100(crit), absorb of say 51
Tank HP = 25 + 100 + 50 = 176
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = 1

Tank lives! Common now

In 10m, the new changes are not going to be that impacting, in 25m, and heroic at that, is going to be a completely different animal.

*sigh*

02/25/2013 03:14 PMPosted by Evry

, I thought it was pretty understood Disc was getting nerfed this patch?

Oh it was completely understood. The degree and the method in which we are getting the nerf bat tho, is quite strange, and I have seen nothing reassuring about our state in 25m heroic in 5.2 Let alone in normal 25m.

Also, while im ranting... take players pets and banana's, and whatever random objects atonement heals off the list, cause frankly, that is ridiculous. "Hai look, dat banana has a DA on it for 105k, IT WILL LIIIVEEE"

02/26/2013 07:09 AMPosted by Drbigblunts

Taking our ability to crit was a unseen haymaker from the left.

YOU HAVE NOT LOST YOUR ABILITY TO CRIT. Anyone who says disc priests can no longer critically stike when casting a heal is wrong.

You still crit. You still get 200% of a normal sized heal, *just like every single other healer*

Now, instead of 200% going to a heal, you get 100% heal + 100% bubble. Still get the 200%.

The 100% going to the bubble already existed...before you got 50% of the 200% , which is 100%. We are loosing our ability to truly "crit". How YOU don't see that, is beyond me.

Old:
Using a 100k Heal, and ignoring actual masteries etc.

100k heal =
200k crit + (50% of 200k = 100k Bubble) = 300k

New:
Using a 100k Heal and ignoring acutal masteries etc.
100k heal = 100k heal + (100% of 100k = 100k bubble.) = 200k

The fact that Disc crit used to be ~300% and now going to ~200% is yes, putting us in line with crit like other healers, but we are loosing our real crit functionality ( a big heal, healing for lots, saving someone) at the expense of having the same/tiny bit bigger DA and a tiny bit more on non critting heals.

The new 100% of the heal to DA is misleading as the old way was 50% of 200%, which was 100% of the heal anyways, which is what its being branded as now...

Or am I completely bonkers?

[New method]
Tank HP = 200
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = 25
Cast say, Flash heal (new crit method) for say 51, absorb of say 51
Tank HP = 25 + 51 + 51 = 127
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = -48

Both heal and absorbs should be 20% more to account for the 20% increase in base healing. You end up with smaller overall crit heals but reliably larger non-crit heals, effectively averaging out to the same amount.

Of course, you could also have a situation where your heals don't crit, and the 20% larger base healing from the new Mastery ends up saving a life.

02/26/2013 07:38 AMPosted by Ceddya

Both heal and absorbs should be 20% more to account for the 20% increase in base healing.

@ Ceddya: So would this be more or less accurate:

[New method]
Tank HP = 200
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = 25
Cast say, Flash heal (new crit method, and with approx mastery) of say 50: 60 heal + 60 DA Bubble
Tank HP = 25 + 60 = 85 w/ 60 DA
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank absorbs 60 of it: 85 - (175-60) = 85 - 115
Tank HP = -30

[Oldmethod]
Tank HP = 200
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = 25
Cast say, Flash heal (crits) of say 50: 100 heal + ~51 DA bubble
Tank HP = 25 +100 = 125 w/ ~51 DA
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank absorbs 60 of it: 125 - (175-51) =125 - 124
Tank HP = 1

?

It's a simplistic way of presenting, but yes. You need to realize that this only applies to your crit heals, what about the other 80% of the time when you don't crit? You shouldn't undervalue the healing bonus from our new Mastery.

02/26/2013 08:17 AMPosted by Drbigblunts

Both heal and absorbs should be 20% more to account for the 20% increase in base healing.

@ Ceddya: So would this be more or less accurate:

[New method]
Tank HP = 200
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = 25
Cast say, Flash heal (new crit method, and with approx mastery) of say 50: 60 heal + 60 DA Bubble
Tank HP = 25 + 60 = 85 w/ 60 DA
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank absorbs 60 of it: 85 - (175-60) = 85 - 115
Tank HP = -30

[Oldmethod]
Tank HP = 200
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = 25
Cast say, Flash heal (crits) of say 50: 100 heal + ~51 DA bubble
Tank HP = 25 +100 = 125 w/ ~51 DA
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank absorbs 60 of it: 125 - (175-51) =125 - 124
Tank HP = 1

?

That's actually not accurate.

DA actually double dips from mastery; the bubble is 100% of the heal, plus extra absorbs from the absorb portion of mastery. So you wouldn't have a 60 heal and a 60 absorb, the DA would be higher than the heal. Something more like 60 heal + 80 absorb.

Your scenario is also highly unlikely, the tank isn't going to be constantly taking hits that are triple what your Flash Heal will hit for baseline, it's just an extreme exaggeration. In your scenario, the tank's screwed in either situation if you don't crit. This kind of model doesn't help when you just make up random numbers that aren't realistic at all.

02/26/2013 08:49 AMPosted by Flintte

Your scenario is also highly unlikely, the tank isn't going to be constantly taking hits that are triple what your Flash Heal will hit for baseline, it's just an extreme exaggeration.

Totally true, it was a very exaggerate and simplistic example. I guess i could try and defend it by saying that the tank could take those (2) 175 hits in the form of many small hits happening very fast equating to 175k over the course of one of my heals cast time, and that my heal im casting at the moment would be the one to land on him before anyone else, and id be the one "trying to save him in that moment". Or that he is just getting pwnd and taking like 88% of his HP every hit (thinking high stacks of Spray on Heroic 25m lei Shi).

Let me try and scale it up. Say a tank has 600k hp. I have seen many times where they take a ton of damage very quickly and go from 600k hp to 25%, or 150k (Thinking Lei Shi Heroic) or less. My flash heal, on live, usually Crits for about 160-175k without Arch angle. So, lets say 175k on crit. Napkin math, 175/600 = 29% of the tanks HP is healed with a critting Flash heal.

My flash heal, in my example, was critting for 100. Napkin math, 100/200 = 50% of the tanks hp. So yes, I suppose I was exaggerating the amount Flash heal does in my example. If 175k flash heal on a 600k hp tank = 29% of tanks HP, then if he has 200 Hp, my flash heal should do 58 critting and 29 base in my examples:

[New method]
Tank HP = 200
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = 25
Cast say, Flash heal (new crit method, and with approx mastery) of say 29: ~34 heal + ~39 DA Bubble (Including the Double dip thing)
Tank HP = 25 + 34= 59 w/ 39 DA
Tank gets hit for 100
Tank absorbs 39 of it: 59 - (100-39) = 54 - 61
Tank HP = -7

[Oldmethod]
Tank HP = 200
Tank gets hit for 175
Tank HP = 25
Cast say, Flash heal (crits) of say 29: 58 heal + ~29 DA bubble
Tank HP = 25 + 58 = 83 w/ ~29 DA
Tank gets hit for 100
Tank absorbs 29 of it: 83 - (100-29) = 83 - 71
Tank HP = 12

That seems more accurate no?

Again, this is extreme and assuming that my heal would have been the one to save or kill the tank, which it wouldn't be, but I think I've adjusted things to be more realistic.As long as I got my small point is across.

Something else to keep in mind... All healing throughput has been increased by Mastery.

5.1
Gheal non crit = 100k
Gheal crit = 200k + 60k DA

5.2
Gheal non crit = 115k
Gheal crit = 115k + 135k DA

Disc is getting a throughput buff to all healing spells, and will rely even more heavily on DA.

02/26/2013 08:36 AMPosted by Ceddya

You shouldn't undervalue the healing bonus from our new Mastery.

Oh I do realize its only on crit heals, but when 'critting' plays a big part of our new mechanics, it does present a major factor I would think.

And on live, I crit quite a bit...and contributes alot to my healing. And yes, the other 80% of the time gets a small boost yes, but for example. On live I would on a good night average say 3 crits on a PoH cast, with the new system,( excluding Auto-DA, as that is a huge problem that I totaly agree should be removed, or reduced dramatically.) I am getting alot less bang for my buck on that same PoH cast, even if the healing is minorly boosted on the 4-5 people all the time, the HP that I would have been healing up via those crits, is now just a drop in the puddle.

Im no math wizard, or know the exact masteries. So take with a Grain of salt.

Going to use PoH as an example, as im really thinking of 25m heroic when I think of these changes. And in 25m, PoH is really your only AoE heal spell out side of atonement healing and lvl 90 talent. PoH is used in 25m heroic quite alot, even if it didn't do the Auto-DA.

So on a PoH cast, under the old system, say I hit all 5 people in a group, and the base heal was 33k, and the crit hit 3 people. And were not including the Auto-DA applied, only applying DA if it crits.
This give me 3 people getting critted for about: 3 X {66k heal + 33k DA)
And the 2 others getting just the healing: 2 X {33k}
So roughly I did: 264k healing and have a 33k DA on (3) People, so ~99K DA
=264k Healing, 99k DA (again , no auto DA, or the DA is much much higher)

So on a PoH cast, under the new system, say I hit all 5 people in a group, and the base heal was 33k, and the crit hit 3 people.
This give me 3 people getting critted for about: 3 X {39.6k heal + 39.6k DA}
And the 2 others getting just the extra boost to healing: 2 X {39.6k}
So roughly I did: 198k healing and have a 39.6k DA on (3) People, so ~118K DA
= 198k healing, ~118k DA

Would you somewhat agree with that Ceddya?

This is assuming I crit on (3) people. What if I crit on no one? Thats when The new system would be beneficial, otherwise, if you were to have crit even once, your loosing out no?(You'd be loosing in the sense that more DA = more RNG for it be absorbed, it might be absorbed, and you might want to have the absorption, but if you need to provide actual healing, well...). So I'm taking this as, if you never crit at all, the new system is slightly more healing, but if you crit even a little bit, your loosing out on healing throughput in favor of a bigger DA that may or may not be absorbed.

?

5.1
Gheal non crit = 100k
Gheal crit = 200k + 60k DA

5.2
Gheal non crit = 115k
Gheal crit = 115k + 135k DA

Your numbers are really all wrong. I would suggest doing more research on the spec.

For reference, DA is 50% on live and the numbers you're posting don't have any consistency or accuracy with how Mastery is applied to DA.

02/26/2013 10:00 AMPosted by Drbigblunts

Would you somewhat agree with that Ceddya?

No. At 20% crit, over the course of multiple PoH casts and not factoring in IF, you should be getting 1 crit PoH heal on average if it hits all 5 members of the group.

So im assuming then when I see multiple crits on a PoH cast hitting (5) people I'm getting extremely lucky on the RNG side of things, but being consistently lucky? Obv the example I gave is a specific scenario/situation that might or might not happen.

5.1
Gheal non crit = 100k
Gheal crit = 200k + 60k DA

5.2
Gheal non crit = 115k
Gheal crit = 115k + 135k DA

Your numbers are really all wrong. .

Huh? Tooltip for DA says 30%. As does wowhead. Please share how it's innacurate.

[quote] the numbers you're posting don't have any consistency or accuracy with how Mastery is applied to DA.

Mastery's influence on DA is minor. Always has been. Scales horribly.

The illustration isn't 100% accurate. Nor was it meant to be. It does however show how the non-crit heals are buffed, and how much larger our DA will be in 5.2. Which is the point.