New Disc Priest Mechanics Announced On PTR!

90 Undead Priest
15830
These changes can be good if there is regular raid damage. Otherwise while still better off than previous PTR incrarnations we'll still be in a very poor place as we'll randomly be critting on a player and then watch as our tiny heal barely dents them and our HUGE DA goes unused.

Spirit Shell should benefit from mastery again. It's an absorb. DA isn't automatic any more. Mastery should once again affect our absorb.

The net result compared to the previous PTR incarnations is:
*We still have weak AoE (although the heal is still slightly larger than before)
*Little interaction among our spells
*We are still more RNG dependent than any other healer.
*Still only 1 spell to cast to heal in AoE situations.
Will our output be higher than previously? Sure, but our DA may or may not ever count. To me as a healer, knowing that I have these awesome spells that may or may not get used is incredibly frustrating.

Because of the above I think DA needs to last longer than 15 seconds. Right now it just feels like if we crit we will get this huge bubble that will evaporate, never to be used (unless we are tank healing).

TLDR; Good direction, but we need another AoE heal, and we need DA to last longer (30sec should make it work in most situations). SS should once again be effected by mastery.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/15/2013 09:10 AMPosted by Poena
Will our output be higher than previously? Sure, but our DA may or may not ever count. To me as a healer, knowing that I have these awesome spells that may or may not get used is incredibly frustrating.


This isn't exactly true per se. Mastery or Crit stacking with the latest changes actually results in lower overall output (healing + DAs included) as compared to Crit stacking on the current incarnation of the PTR.

It will also likely (subject to confirmation after the changes are added to the PTR) result in smaller SS casts too. Of course, this is making the assumption that overhealing values remain relatively similar between non-crits, crits and the new bigger heals from Mastery.

The upside is that PW:S will shield for 10-15% more on average.
90 Undead Priest
15830
02/15/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Ceddya
Will our output be higher than previously? Sure, but our DA may or may not ever count. To me as a healer, knowing that I have these awesome spells that may or may not get used is incredibly frustrating.


This isn't exactly true per se. Mastery or Crit stacking with the latest changes actually results in lower overall output (healing + DAs included) as compared to Crit stacking on the current incarnation of the PTR.

It will also likely (subject to confirmation after the changes are added to the PTR) result in smaller SS casts too. Of course, this is making the assumption that overhealing values remain relatively similar between non-crits, crits and the new bigger heals from Mastery.

The upside is that PW:S will shield for 10-15% more on average.


Ya, I durped thinking that we would heal for me. It sounded like a better change because math confuzzled me (100% is more than 50%)...

Then I read this post:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7811342046?page=98#1950
Currently you get a 200% heal, and then 50% of that is a shield + mastery.

post patch you get a 100% heal + some mastery + 100% of that + smaller mastery.

The base heal will be a little bigger, the following shield will be smaller, 100% of a heal the base heal crit is removed.

50% of a 200% heal = 100% of the base heal, so DA is already as strong as it will be post change, you are simply losing the double strength heal.


Damn my hopefulness... Here I was thinking Blizzard was actually going to make things better, but instead they nerfed us even more.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 10:37 AMPosted by Poena
Damn my hopefulness... Here I was thinking Blizzard was actually going to make things better, but instead they nerfed us even more.


I don't see this as a nerf. I see it as a step in the right direction, actually.
95 Human Priest
16945
I'm looking at this as a effective throughput buff. And it's going to chase out those who can't be proactive, because that hp is going to be harder to get back once it's lost. And as a bonus, we're actually encouraged to stack a stat without excluding another stat, so win win for gearing.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 10:50 AMPosted by Twistedmind
I'm looking at this as a effective throughput buff. And it's going to chase out those who can't be proactive, because that hp is going to be harder to get back once it's lost. And as a bonus, we're actually encouraged to stack a stat without excluding another stat, so win win for gearing.


It's more balanced than where we are currently, and where we were going to be in 5.2. So, I'm mostly happy. I want to see how it plays out.
90 Undead Priest
15830
Damn my hopefulness... Here I was thinking Blizzard was actually going to make things better, but instead they nerfed us even more.


I don't see this as a nerf. I see it as a step in the right direction, actually.


Our DA does less in this iteration.

PW:S can crit (RNG)

All our heals heal for more with mastery. But in exchange all our crits no longer heal but instead are 100% susceptable to RNG if the absorption bubble (smaller than we had before this change) will be used (RNG on top of RNG).

How is making everything we do more RNG dependent a "step in the right direction"?

02/15/2013 10:50 AMPosted by Twistedmind
I'm looking at this as a effective throughput buff. And it's going to chase out those who can't be proactive, because that hp is going to be harder to get back once it's lost. And as a bonus, we're actually encouraged to stack a stat without excluding another stat, so win win for gearing.


How can you be proactive with Crits?
Edited by Poena on 2/15/2013 11:38 AM PST
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
It's more balanced than where we are currently, and where we were going to be in 5.2. So, I'm mostly happy. I want to see how it plays out.


Yea, I'm pretty happy that this change has made Mastery a really viable stat again. However, with PW:S set to be similar HPS as a 5-target 0% overheal PoH, I can't help but wonder if PW:S will become our go-to raid heal now (barring specific fights with spikes followed by long lulls in damage).

With further nerfs to SS expected, it'll probably be much better to use PI for PW:S spam to maximize the mana savings and to take full advantage of the +10% damage buff for Atonement. Combining this with the fact that we have rather cheap fillers in the form of Penance and PoM every 6 and 10 seconds respectively, together with a free Solace every 10 seconds, I wonder if we'd have enough mana to sustain spamming PW:S in between these casts, or at least have it make up the vast majority of our spell casts, especially in a 25-man with spare Innervates and multiple MTT.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/15/2013 11:39 AM PST
100 Blood Elf Priest
12030
02/15/2013 11:38 AMPosted by Ceddya
Combining this with the fact that we have rather cheap fillers in the form of Penance and PoM every 6 and 10 seconds respectively, together with a free Solace every 10 seconds, I wonder if we'd have enough mana to sustain spamming PW:S in between these casts, or at least have it make up the vast majority of our spell casts, especially in a 25-man with spare Innervates and multiple MTT.

When they first announced the mana cost reduction, I checked a simplified version of this (just Spirit Shell, Solace, and PWS) and found that the mana required to sustain it required a level of Spirit that was going to be unattainable in this patch although possibly attainable in the next. It was, however, possible to maintain about 70-75% activity with that 'rotation' with BIS t14 gear and low levels of haste, so entry t15N gear plus some spare innervates and MTTs should increase that to maybe 75-80%, which isn't outside the realm of reasonableness for healer activity.

I'm not sure how much adding Penance and PoM into the model would change it. My brain is tired and I have another midterm in 2 hours, so I don't feel like mathing just now, but my gut feeling is that the effect would be small; I don't think it would be more than a 10% reduction in mana cost.
98 Blood Elf Priest
8265
Penance is going to get free haste from BT and is going to be crazy good HPM and good HPS in 5.2 so I can't see it ever being taken out unless mana becomes a total non-issue which isn't anytime this next patch. I wonder what the numbers for renew will look like with the changes?

I could see us being inner will using penance, HF, and PoM on CD. PI and AA for shield spam + cascade during heavy damage phases and Shield/renew as filler spells. Not sure if SS will be worth it all to use and removing PoH from our casting may be very possible in 10 man with BH + glyph.
Edited by Taihou on 2/15/2013 12:13 PM PST
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/15/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Kaels
When they first announced the mana cost reduction, I checked a simplified version of this (just Spirit Shell, Solace, and PWS) and found that the mana required to sustain it required a level of Spirit that was going to be unattainable in this patch although possibly attainable in the next. It was, however, possible to maintain about 70-75% activity with that 'rotation' with BIS t14 gear and low levels of haste, so entry t15N gear plus some spare innervates and MTTs should increase that to maybe 75-80%, which isn't outside the realm of reasonableness for healer activity.


I've been trying to find that post made by you but to no avail. Could you link it if possible?

But yeah, I can't remember if your calculations factored in the Spirit gains from the upgraded Heroic trinkets. If they didn't, it means that PW:S spam may become more sustainable. Further, each additional MTT in the raid provides me with enough mana to roughly cast 3 more PW:S per min, so that's not too shabby either.

Also, offensive Penance is higher HPS and HPM than PW:S, especially with Evangalism stacks. If cast on its 6s CD, it'd definitely mean more mana that can be channeled towards casting more PW:S.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/15/2013 12:28 PM PST
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/15/2013 12:12 PMPosted by Taihou
I wonder what the numbers for renew will look like with the changes?


Renew's going to have similar HPM as PW:S, but much lower HPS. However, the fact that it also overheals for quite a bit means that it's still going to be a terrible spell to use. You'd be better off saving that mana for another PW:S!
90 Worgen Druid
12130


This isn't exactly true per se. Mastery or Crit stacking with the latest changes actually results in lower overall output (healing + DAs included) as compared to Crit stacking on the current incarnation of the PTR.

It will also likely (subject to confirmation after the changes are added to the PTR) result in smaller SS casts too. Of course, this is making the assumption that overhealing values remain relatively similar between non-crits, crits and the new bigger heals from Mastery.

The upside is that PW:S will shield for 10-15% more on average.


Ya, I durped thinking that we would heal for me. It sounded like a better change because math confuzzled me (100% is more than 50%)...

Then I read this post:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7811342046?page=98#1950
Currently you get a 200% heal, and then 50% of that is a shield + mastery.

post patch you get a 100% heal + some mastery + 100% of that + smaller mastery.

The base heal will be a little bigger, the following shield will be smaller, 100% of a heal the base heal crit is removed.

50% of a 200% heal = 100% of the base heal, so DA is already as strong as it will be post change, you are simply losing the double strength heal.


Damn my hopefulness... Here I was thinking Blizzard was actually going to make things better, but instead they nerfed us even more.


Wait, so is this even worse than I thought?

Suppose you have a 100 heal spell. Currently, does it work like:

a crit gives 200 healing + 100 Absorb from DA (50% of the 200 heal)?

If so, this change looks to be cutting a crit by 1/3:

crit in patch: 100 heal + 100 absorb.

Is this right?
Edited by Lifa on 2/15/2013 12:36 PM PST
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
crit in patch: 100 heal + 100 absorb.

Is this right?


You're forgetting that the new Mastery boosts our heals too. Assuming you have 40% mastery, you're looking at +40% to your absorbs and +20% to your healing.

So it's going to be 120 [100 * 1.2] heal + 168 [100 * 1.2 * 1.4] absorb.

Right now it's 200 + 160 [assuming 60% Mastery, 0.5 * 200 * 1.6].

These numbers don't include the meta but you get the point. What this change does is reduce the total amount of a crit heal while increasing how much a non-crit heals for.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/15/2013 12:41 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
In a nutshell, I love the mastery change and hate the DA change. I understand that one couldn't happen without the other, or many of our mechanics would me mathematically OP again, but still.

It's hard to imagine how those random, huge shields are going to work out in a real environment. Sure, it's going to help with our kryptonite; aura-style damage when our CDs are used up. I imagine burn phases are going to be a nightmare of whac-a-mole with PW:Sing those that aren't lucky enough to get DA. But it's also going to see a lot of those uncontrollable DAs simply drop off on any fight that isn't that style.

This is going to wreak havoc on "smart" heals, which are pretty much half the heals in the game right now, as people sit at lower health but have huge shields on them. While all the "smart" heals get funneled into the targets with low HP and huge DAs (looking at you, Atonement) someone else with slightly higher health gets hit without any absorb and killed.

My other big concern is human interaction. DA is not an actively tracked buff. "How is this any different than how PW:S works now?" you ask. Well, for one, when PW:S was last heavily used, "smart" heals were relatively sparse. Also, these DA bombs will be totally unmanaged by the person casting them; sometimes they'll be there and sometimes they won't, you rarely get to purposefully point them at someone, and who even knows how big they are? Moreso, with DA blanketing you were pretty much putting small DAs on everyone in the raid, not spotting huge ones here and there unpredictably. Unless you're running a raid frame addon that adds the DA amount into the person's health bar, it is going to be very frustrating to heal along with a Disc priest in this manner.

The other thing that really makes me wary on this is how much it plays into Atonement. This is absolutely great for Atonement heals, both in damage and healing, but they're already pushing Atonement so much that it's getting to the point that Atonement is almost better than most of our castable heals. That's a problem. The PI change does not help this.

I'm wary, and I'm more than a little afraid. Yes, these are good conceptual changes, but I don't see them playing out well in practice.
90 Human Priest
17065
The other thing that really makes me wary on this is how much it plays into Atonement. This is absolutely great for Atonement heals, both in damage and healing, but they're already pushing Atonement so much that it's getting to the point that Atonement is almost better than most of our castable heals. That's a problem. The PI change does not help this


I don't understand how the DA change is going to be 'great' for atonement. As you said previously in your post, it's going to wreck havoc on smart heals, atonement is a smart heal.

What I see is that this: atonement with this new DA is a nerf for most cases where it's used. This is something we use as a spot heal option to cover random, unpredictable, sporadic spikes where a 15 second absorb is probably going to waste. On the other hand a straight up 200% 'raw op' crit is welcomed (because as per nature of smart heals, the recipient is low and can use all the heal he can get). This part worries me. I'd rather atonement be taken off the DA list at that point given the unpredictable nature of it...or give us something where we can 'somewhat' control where it's going to go so all that crit-mastery synergy doesn't go to waste.
Edited by Zamboozle on 2/15/2013 12:53 PM PST
90 Human Priest
11345
Man I am going to rage if people keep referring to "new huge shields".

They are roughly the same size as current shields generated when you crit.

02/15/2013 12:38 PMPosted by Ceddya
What this change does is reduce the total amount of a crit heal while increasing how much a non-crit heals for.


This.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
It's hard to imagine how those random, huge shields are going to work out in a real environment. Sure, it's going to help with our kryptonite; aura-style damage when our CDs are used up. I imagine burn phases are going to be a nightmare of whac-a-mole with PW:Sing those that aren't lucky enough to get DA. But it's also going to see a lot of those uncontrollable DAs simply drop off on any fight that isn't that style.


Actually, a DA procced from a Crit heal with this change is going to shield for the same amount as it does on live. 100% of the non-crit amount is the same as 50% of a 200% crit heal.

Also, the ~20% buff to our healing will offset the loss in that extra crit healing as most Disc Priests are running with <20% crit anyway. All this does it make our heals hit consistently harder but spike for less without the crit healing, but it'd end up averaging to the same amount over the course of a fight.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/15/2013 12:46 PMPosted by Amabella
Man I am going to rage if people keep referring to "new huge shields".


^. :P
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Also, these changes aren't really huge buffs. What this patch will do, though, is make Crit and Mastery relatively equal in strength.

The initial recommendation to stack Crit in 5.2 will actual provide slightly higher output from our heals + DA (anything but PW:S and SS) as Crit is a much better secondary stat when it comes to Atonement healing. We're also potentially looking at a 6-7% further reduction to SS as compared to the numbers on the PTR.

Our rotation will still involve casting Penance on CD. However, with PW:S now able to Crit, we're looking at 10-15% bigger PW:S shields as compared to Crit stacking on the PTR, and this will most likely shift our spell priority towards using PW:S over PoH in most situations as it's looking like PW:S spam is going to be semi-sustainable in 5.2 (unless the PoH can hit all 5 targets and do minimal overhealing as a PW:S with the latest changes will do similar HPS as a 5-target zero overhealing PoH and the HPM difference is irrelevant if mana isn't an issue).

Ultimately, whether this change is a good thing depends on how much you actually like using PW:S as one of your main heals.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/15/2013 1:09 PM PST
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