New Disc Priest Mechanics Announced On PTR!

90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
Wait, so is this even worse than I thought?

Suppose you have a 100 heal spell. Currently, does it work like:

a crit gives 200 healing + 100 Absorb from DA (50% of the 200 heal)?

If so, this change looks to be cutting a crit by 1/3:

crit in patch: 100 heal + 100 absorb.

Is this right?

I did a specific breakdown here:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7909481150?page=17#331
02/15/2013 04:16 AMPosted by Kaels
So basically the divine aegis change is a nerf to disc's crit effectiveness (compared to live) ?

More-or-less, but it's not a nerf overall.

If X is the value of a heal before secondary stat effects, the current value of a crit is:

Heal: 2 * X
Shield: (1 + 0.025 * Mastery) * X
Total: (3 + 0.025 * Mastery) * X

The new value of a crit is:

Heal: (1 + 0.008 * Mastery) * X
Shield: (1 + 0.016 * Mastery)(1 + 0.008 * Mastery) * X
Total: (2 + 0.032 * Mastery + 0.000128 * Mastery ^ 2) * X

So if you have, say, 12 Mastery points (equates to 30% Mastery), the current value of a crit is 3.3 * X. The new value is 2.402 * X. So that's clearly a significant nerf to crit.

However, it's not a significant nerf overall. If you have, say, 15% Crit raidbuffed, then your average heal under the current system is:
0.85 * X + 0.15 * 3.3 * X = 1.345 * X

Your average heal under the new system is:
0.85 * 1.096 * X + 0.15 * 2.402 * X = 1.292 * X

So it's on the order of a 3-5% nerf to overall healing from normal healing spells. That still doesn't look great, but look at the impact on PWS.

Let X be the value of PWS before secondary stats.

Current value of PWS: (1 + 0.025 * Mastery) * X
Current average PWS at 12 Mastery and 15% crit: 1.3 * X

New value of PWS: (1 + 0.016 * Mastery) * X
New value of crit PWS: (2 + 0.048 * Mastery + 0.000256 * Mastery ^ 2) * X
New average PWS at 12 Mastery and 15% crit: 0.85 * 1.192 * X + 0.15 * 2.613 * X = 1.405 * X

So it's on the order of a 6-10% buff to PWS on average. That should make the overall effect pretty much neutral in terms of raw numbers. It should actually be a buff to your effective numbers.
90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
Oh, and you guys are making good points about Atonement. It might be good for Atonement crits to just do the double-value heal.

It's possible that's how it might work anyway, since the actual 'crit' is the damage crit. The heal itself doesn't crit, so in order to make it work like other heals, they'd have to first scale it with Mastery, then deliberately cut it in half and then pretend it's a crit heal. Which sounds like a lot more work than just removing the current on-crit DA proc and maybe adding the Mastery scaling.
Edited by Kaels on 2/15/2013 1:23 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Oh, and you guys are making good points about Atonement. It might be good for Atonement crits to just do the double-value heal.

It's possible that's how it might work anyway, since the actual 'crit' is the damage crit. The heal itself doesn't crit, so in order to make it work like other heals, they'd have to first scale it with Mastery, then deliberately cut it in half and then pretend it's a crit heal. Which sounds like a lot more work than just removing the current on-crit DA proc and maybe adding the Mastery scaling.


The heals themselves can crit. I've seen it put DA up.
90 Human Priest
17065
Oh, and you guys are making good points about Atonement. It might be good for Atonement crits to just do the double-value heal.

It's possible that's how it might work anyway, since the actual 'crit' is the damage crit. The heal itself doesn't crit, so in order to make it work like other heals, they'd have to first scale it with Mastery, then deliberately cut it in half and then pretend it's a crit heal. Which sounds like a lot more work than just removing the current on-crit DA proc and maybe adding the Mastery scaling.


Actually Kaels, crit atonement damage translates into a crit atonement 'heal'. Unless they changed it just this week...I recall making pretty DA bubbles on mogu pumpkins as I fought away hawks and vermin.

edit: or it could be what tiriel is saying that the heal itself can crit into something else.

So 100 damage = 100 heal, with a chance of the 100 heal criting for 200 individually?

But somehow I remember it as 200 crit damage = 200 CRIT heal, which will translate to a 100 heal + 100 DA come patch.

Or is it something like 200 CRIT damage = 200 heal with a chance it crit to 400 (200 with a bubble come patch)?

/wail of agony.
Edited by Zamboozle on 2/15/2013 1:27 PM PST
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/15/2013 01:24 PMPosted by Zamboozle
So 100 damage = 100 heal, with a chance of the 100 heal criting for 200 individually?


Scratch that - the heal from Atonement never crits independently. You will only get a Crit heal if the damage component crits.

It's not so bad though, Mastery buffing our healing will compensate for the loss of the crit healing.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/15/2013 1:35 PM PST
90 Human Priest
5860
Current atonement DA generation is tied to the damage crit. If the damage portion was a crit, it does the heal and generates a bubble. How it will work now? No idea. Either is advantageous, but using the new DA (so 2x damage, 1xheal 1xbubble) might be easier to balance in the future.
90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
Oh, and you guys are making good points about Atonement. It might be good for Atonement crits to just do the double-value heal.

It's possible that's how it might work anyway, since the actual 'crit' is the damage crit. The heal itself doesn't crit, so in order to make it work like other heals, they'd have to first scale it with Mastery, then deliberately cut it in half and then pretend it's a crit heal. Which sounds like a lot more work than just removing the current on-crit DA proc and maybe adding the Mastery scaling.


The heals themselves can crit. I've seen it put DA up.

Are you talking about now? Or after the change?

Right now, Atonement procs DA if you get a DPS crit. But the heal itself doesn't have an independent chance to crit - its healing is fully determined by the damage, and the DA is purely linked to DPS crits.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 01:24 PMPosted by Zamboozle
edit: or it could be what tiriel is saying that the heal itself can crit into something else.


I'm more inclined to think that Evry has it right. I wasn't looking at the damage when I've seen the heal crit, I just noticed the bubble go out. So, most likely the damage crit, too.
90 Human Priest
11345
Atonement heal does not crit independently of the damaging spell. (If you say it does, log of it happening please).

I'm expecting atonement to work like this:

Regular damage 50k, crit damage 103k (metagem).

Regular atonement 50k * healmastery heal.

Crit atonement 51.5k * healmastery *1.03 heal, 51.5k * healmastery * absorbmastery * 1.03 bubble.

So the same as it is for every other spell, but we'll have to wait and see. Yes, atonement double dips the crit metagem on live too.
Edited by Amabella on 2/15/2013 1:36 PM PST
90 Human Priest
11345
02/15/2013 01:53 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
I assume it is still going to be calculated as the expected value of the heal cast outside of SS including crits and any resulting aegis? In that sense it is indirectly affected by mastery as mastery buffs the base value of the heal as well as the aegis portion of the crit.


Yes. Spirit Shell on live today doesn't know whether your heal would have crit or not. We're not running a simulation and then intercepting the results and turning them into bubbles -- we're just predicting the average. It shouldn't work any differently. Yes, your crit won't benefit from the bubble part of mastery, but the heal part of mastery should almost entirely offset that.


GC responding to my question about how spirit shell functions after the mastery change, from PTR forum.
90 Blood Elf Mage
17040
I'm so happy he is reading you guys.
90 Human Priest
5860
02/15/2013 01:57 PMPosted by Amabella
how spirit shell functions

This seems unclear... seems to mean that the DA*crit part won't be affected by the absorb mastery? That seems odd. It will make SS a throughput loss.
90 Human Priest
11345
02/15/2013 02:13 PMPosted by Evry
This seems unclear... seems to mean that the DA*crit part won't be affected by the absorb mastery? That seems odd. It will make SS a throughput loss.


The last sentence could be interpreted to mean that I guess, but given the rest of his post (that he confirmed it's the average PoH size, and that it's the same as it works on PTR right now) I think he's referring to heal mastery applying only to the healing portion of the heal even on crits, and absorb mastery applying only to the aegis portion, which is how it should work.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 02:31 PMPosted by Amabella
This seems unclear... seems to mean that the DA*crit part won't be affected by the absorb mastery? That seems odd. It will make SS a throughput loss.


The last sentence could be interpreted to mean that I guess, but given the rest of his post (that he confirmed it's the average PoH size, and that it's the same as it works on PTR right now) I think he's referring to heal mastery applying only to the healing portion of the heal even on crits, and absorb mastery applying only to the aegis portion, which is how it should work.


I asked for a clarification. Let's hope he responds.
90 Human Priest
11345
I asked for a clarification. Let's hope he responds.


Even if he doesn't, it will be pretty easy to verify in game once they put it on the test realm.
90 Troll Priest
10205
Yeah GC talking to some player who actually know what there talking about is great, I like to think it's because of all the talk that was generated on the forum, it's nice to think that we're listened too (probably wasn't really the case but I can dream).

I have to re-realize this every few months, but the dev team do often come trough and makes nice change that do great re balance in interesting way that are generally well received, sorta like the change to Inner focus in beta.

I do really wonder how SS will work in relation to mastery, I think making it only take into account the boost from the shield portion of mastery and ignore the heal buff from mastery should do nicely.
90 Human Priest
11345
02/15/2013 03:09 PMPosted by Meit
I do really wonder how SS will work in relation to mastery, I think making it only take into account the boost from the shield portion of mastery and ignore the heal buff from mastery should do nicely.


The easiest way to think about 5.2 SS conceptually is:

Imagine yourself casting some absurdly large amount of PoH's.

Add up the total healing + overhealing + shielding done by all those casts.

Divide that by the number of PoH casts.

That's the size of SS PoH - it's the average size of the "real" heal. It's not directly buffed by mastery, but it's based on the size of the heals (+absorbs on crits) themselves (which mastery affects).
Edited by Amabella on 2/15/2013 3:18 PM PST
90 Human Priest
11345
Mastery increases Atonement healing. Suppose I have mastery such that my Absorbs are increased by 36.33%, and healing is increased by 18.17% (same values we mentioned yesterday). I Smite for 35391, non-crit. Atonement heals the tank for… 35391*1.1817=41820. Now suppose that Smite crits, for 70782. Atonement crit heals the tank for 41820, plus a Divine Aegis for… 41820*1.3633= 57012. (Atonement critting is still based on whether the Smite crit).


GC explaining how atonement works with the new mastery. It's as I guessed in post #69 of this thread (although his example does not include a meta gem).
90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
02/15/2013 12:47 PMPosted by Ceddya
Actually, a DA procced from a Crit heal with this change is going to shield for the same amount as it does on live. 100% of the non-crit amount is the same as 50% of a 200% crit heal.


It is not, simply because of the +healing modifier. The EH remains close to the same but the ratio of heal to absorb is different. This applies to our entire toolkit, but it is not a linear measurement and will vary vastly by mastery level and spell usage.

This is actually a pretty radical change from live. Less so from the now outdated PTR, but it has the effect of invalidating some things that I thought were actually going rather well for the spec.

Honestly I think I'm going to get off the merry-go-round for a while.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
It is not, simply because of the +healing modifier. The EH remains close to the same but the ratio of heal to absorb is different. This applies to our entire toolkit, but it is not a linear measurement and will vary vastly by mastery level and spell usage.


You're right, the base DA amount will be larger, but it's off set by the fact that the new Mastery doesn't boost your absorbs as much anymore. Effectively, you'll end up with roughly the same DA size.

Also, the ratio of heal to absorb isn't going to change too much with these updates.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/15/2013 8:44 PM PST
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