New Disc Priest Mechanics Announced On PTR!

90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
02/15/2013 08:53 PMPosted by Tonydanza
Note; Not saying favored, but golly they sure listen to your cries far more than any other class. So...either you're very whiny babies, or they just really love you guys;)


Or we're just inherently more difficult to balance than the other healers, and that's clear to anyone (especially the Devs) to see.
90 Tauren Druid
8710
02/15/2013 08:54 PMPosted by Qùess
Note; Not saying favored, but golly they sure listen to your cries far more than any other class. So...either you're very whiny babies, or they just really love you guys;)


Or we're just inherently more difficult to balance than the other healers, and that's clear to anyone (especially the Devs) to see.


1 week before the next tier is supposedly dropping, I wouldn't call it very clear. If it were, would've been done weeks ago.
90 Troll Priest
10205
Has blizzard ever catered to one class so much in a single tier on multiple occasions? Excuse me while I puke in my shoes.

Note; Not saying favored, but golly they sure listen to your cries far more than any other class. So...either you're very whiny babies, or they just really love you guys;)


I would refer you to Holy pally for the entire duration of data or resto druid for most of LK. ;P
90 Night Elf Priest
13490
Has blizzard ever catered to one class so much in a single tier on multiple occasions? Excuse me while I puke in my shoes.

Note; Not saying favored, but golly they sure listen to your cries far more than any other class. So...either you're very whiny babies, or they just really love you guys;)


You sound pretty mad/jealous. Are you forgetting Resto Druids in Lich King? Or Holy Paladins in Cata?

Let's not forget how often we hear about Blizzard catering to rogues/mages, either.
90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
02/15/2013 10:48 PMPosted by Elethia
mages


Yeah, well I think I picked the wrong expansion to main my mages :(
90 Night Elf Priest
13490
02/15/2013 11:04 PMPosted by Taymage
Yeah, well I think I picked the wrong expansion to main my mages :(


Go back to your Shaman!

PS: You, Kaels and I need to hang out again before I'm across the pond on BI.
90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
02/15/2013 11:14 PMPosted by Elethia
Yeah, well I think I picked the wrong expansion to main my mages :(


Go back to your Shaman!

PS: You, Kaels and I need to hang out again before I'm across the pond on BI.


Oh you are moving? And yes we do need to hang out.
90 Human Priest
16665
02/15/2013 07:34 PMPosted by Amabella
Mastery increases Atonement healing. Suppose I have mastery such that my Absorbs are increased by 36.33%, and healing is increased by 18.17% (same values we mentioned yesterday). I Smite for 35391, non-crit. Atonement heals the tank for… 35391*1.1817=41820. Now suppose that Smite crits, for 70782. Atonement crit heals the tank for 41820, plus a Divine Aegis for… 41820*1.3633= 57012. (Atonement critting is still based on whether the Smite crit).


GC explaining how atonement works with the new mastery. It's as I guessed in post #69 of this thread (although his example does not include a meta gem).

I'm actually looking at doing some comparisons to other classes to confirm that the new change has pushed theoretical atonement healing + smite dps into more than what 50% of a dps class is capable of and 50% of what a healer is capable of. Either way, atonement healing is getting pushed up to be better and better compared to any of our other spells.
These changes are interetsing, I'm pretty sure we won't have much to worry about regarding shields being totally wasted given the damage patterns we've been seeing for quite some time. Sure, some might not be used in their entirety, but then again, some crit heals are wasted into overheal.

I do think this might make 2-healing with certain comps a bit more difficult due to lower raw output after a burst situation, but time will tell, and my guild generally doesn't 2-heal anyways.
90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
02/15/2013 08:42 PMPosted by Ceddya
Also, the ratio of heal to absorb isn't going to change too much with these updates.


On an individual, unbuffed basis perhaps not. But on an overall basis it will, mainly because of the way IF currently functions. You go from nearly 2:1 heal/absorb on a IF PoH to closer to 1:2 heal/absorb. Yes, the EH goes up significantly, but DA EH is temporary while healing EH is permanent, so the fight mechanics will tell if that's a win or not. I'm not a fan of situational permanent class mechanics.

Taking a step back to look at it I'm still not sure what they want this to accomplish. Crit is actually not going to be a stat to pursue under this system; the main appeal to it wasn't just the SS improvement but the 200% 'smart' heals on Atonement. Sure, 'smart' DA can be good, but again, temporary vs. permanent, and that also presents healer interaction problems as I've stated before. Previously, we had a system where mastery was good for PW:S and crit was good for Atonement, now mastery will be the best stat for everything.

Moreso, from a design standpoint I'm not sure where they're trying to go. We are going to be doing more healing overall and that's a good thing, but the tradeoff is that we are going to be putting out more shields that are smaller than before and in less of a controlled manner. I don't see how spattering 50-80k DAs randomly over the raid is going to benefit us as a spec except to boost numbers on a meter. DA is very rarely going to be something we use to beat a fight or save a raid member. I'm not sure why they're emphasizing it even more unless it's to help point at overall numbers and say "look, more absorb!" Our controllable absorbs are going down, our healing is going up, and our uncontrollable absorbs are going up. I suppose that's their answer to keep us being "absorb spec" but also toning down how much power we wield over mechanics? Maybe it's a necessary direction, but I'm not sure I like it.
90 Troll Priest
10205
Well the change to DA and all that are very clearly meant to balance us and it seems blizz think controllable absorb are simply too powerful to be properly balanced.

I still think that in 5.2 were really mostly just going to stack haste with a bit of sprit, maybe in a 2:1 fashion and everything else will just be because we can't get haste. I'll wait till 5.2 hit the server to do the math, but it seems like every healer are just slowly going closer to just stacking haste because our mana regen is going up too fast, if there's 3 raid tier, I'm pretty sure the 3rd tier will have us swimming in so much mana it'll be ICC all over again.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Moreso, from a design standpoint I'm not sure where they're trying to go. We are going to be doing more healing overall and that's a good thing, but the tradeoff is that we are going to be putting out more shields that are smaller than before and in less of a controlled manner. I don't see how spattering 50-80k DAs randomly over the raid is going to benefit us as a spec except to boost numbers on a meter.


I don't get this. Your crit DAs will still be on the same people regardless of this change as they are not changing the functionality or targeting mechanics of any of our non-crit heals. Our crit DAs will also roughly shield for the same amount too.

How exactly does this result more shields that are smaller or reduce the control we have over our DAs (note: as crit DAs have always been tied to crit, there really isn't much control in the first place).

You also need to realize that the healing gained from the 20% healing mastery effectively balances out the loss in crit healing. All it means is that our heals will consistently be larger but less spikey/random due to the loss of crit healing.

Our controllable absorbs are going down, our healing is going up, and our uncontrollable absorbs are going up. I suppose that's their answer to keep us being "absorb spec" but also toning down how much power we wield over mechanics? Maybe it's a necessary direction, but I'm not sure I like it.


But that's not true. You could never really control who got the crit heal and thus DA. Our controlled absorbs come from SS and PW:S, and while we may see a further slight reduction in SS numbers, the change to PW:S effectively balances that. Also, once again, our crit DA numbers are going to be pretty similar even after these changes. Assuming that your secondary stats remain the same, the frequency and size of crit DAs will effectively remain unchanged and the difference will be marginal at the worst.

Taking a step back to look at it I'm still not sure what they want this to accomplish. Crit is actually not going to be a stat to pursue under this system; the main appeal to it wasn't just the SS improvement but the 200% 'smart' heals on Atonement. Sure, 'smart' DA can be good, but again, temporary vs. permanent, and that also presents healer interaction problems as I've stated before. Previously, we had a system where mastery was good for PW:S and crit was good for Atonement, now mastery will be the best stat for everything.


The choice between Crit and Mastery is ultimately going to be whether you want more frequent DAs on the raid or consistently bigger heals. You will probably see similar output between the two over the course of the fight, but the difference between the two secondary stats is going to be pretty small. If you do the math, you'll actually find that you'll obtain relatively similar average PW:S and SS values regardless of whether you stack Crit or Mastery.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/16/2013 9:42 AM PST
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/16/2013 09:08 AMPosted by Meit
I still think that in 5.2 were really mostly just going to stack haste with a bit of sprit, maybe in a 2:1 fashion and everything else will just be because we can't get haste. I'll wait till 5.2 hit the server to do the math, but it seems like every healer are just slowly going closer to just stacking haste because our mana regen is going up too fast, if there's 3 raid tier, I'm pretty sure the 3rd tier will have us swimming in so much mana it'll be ICC all over again.


If you have the mana to support heavy Haste stacking, you're going to be much better off just stacking Mastery or Crit and spamming PW:S.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/16/2013 9:43 AM PST
90 Troll Priest
9550
02/16/2013 09:22 AMPosted by Ceddya
But that's not true. You could never really control who got the crit heal and thus DA.


This is going to be what will suck in 5.2. Even with high amounts of crit, it isn't a 100% guarantee that every target we Prayer of Healing will receive DA.

From all of the math that I've been seeing, all three secondary statistics are going to do similar as far as your throughput. However, *quoted by twisted mind*

So looking at the formula above and our starting points, 600 crit is a 1.04% increase in our healing. 600 mastery is a 0.91% increase in our healing.
- 600 haste increases hps by 1.41%


But it is all situational as well --

- But the new absorbs are only going to happen if I get a crit.
- If I don't get a crit, I'm only getting the healing value from mastery
- Crits for most classes are easy to figure out, 1% is roughly a 1% increase to throughput
- But because our crits are multiplied by mastery, we get a little more from crit


So in my opinion I think that we are going to just have to dink around with all of them a bit. But I will say I like the idea of Int > Spirit (as needed) > Crit = Mastery > Haste, but it could all change and this is just what I am seeing.

Crit = Mastery because if; like stated in Twisted's quote we get a bigger crit from mastery, therefor a bigger absorb, it may hurt to stack one over the other. I guess we will just have to see.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/16/2013 10:02 AMPosted by Lillèth
But it is all situational as well --


It's going to boil down to whether you want more DAs or bigger heals. I've tried various combinations of Mastery and Crit based on my current gear, and the numbers for PW:S and SS will remain relatively similar regardless of the ratio of Crit to Mastery.

Personally, I suspect that I will be using PW:S for the majority of my casts, and I'll probably choose Mastery as I prefer consistency over the 'randomness' of Crit. Plus, it doesn't hurt that Mastery's also going to be marginally better for PW:S.
90 Troll Priest
10205
02/16/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Ceddya
f you have the mana to support heavy Haste stacking, you're going to be much better off just stacking Mastery or Crit and spamming PW:S.


Isn't that ignoring strength of soul thought? Plus haste does reduce GCD so you can PW:S more along with more SS PoH and better atonement heal and dps at the same time.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/16/2013 10:21 AMPosted by Meit
Isn't that ignoring strength of soul thought? Plus haste does reduce GCD so you can PW:S more along with more SS PoH and better atonement heal and dps at the same time.


SoS is pretty much a non-factor in 25-mans as we don't do nearly enough spot healing on those with WS for it to matter. With the nerfs to SS, obtaining the extra PoH cast during SS will probably be off-set by the fact that each SS cast is going to be shielding less.

I also do not think we'll have the mana to support both Haste stacking and heavy PW:S usage in 5.2, and I personally prefer bigger shields per cast over more casts. Ultimately, this is something that we'll just have to wait and test.
8 Dwarf Priest
0
02/16/2013 09:02 AMPosted by Khendra
Taking a step back to look at it I'm still not sure what they want this to accomplish.


Isn't it obvious? It should be.

Its because Mastery for most specs is basically just a version of Critical strike that affects only a small segment of your abilities.

Chance for your dots to tick twice (Shadow). Chance for an additional attack (Arms). Chance for a free Lightning Bolt (Elemental). On and on. There's not much imagination or originality going into it, across most specs.

With Disc specifically, because the Mastery is a bonus on a critical strike, it essentially means the value of Critical strike increases at a superlinear rate. The more you have, the better it gets. 100% critical strike doesn't make you 2x as powerful, it means you're at least 2.5x as powerful, and probably closer to 2.8x or so once you factor in any Mastery rating above the baseline and full buffs.

Essentially, for most specs in the game, you can think of Critical strike as a form of Mastery that affects all your damaging or healing abilities. Broadly speaking, 25% critical strike means you are 100% more powerful, 25% of the time on average. This is the reason Critical strike rating has been the most expensive rating ever since Mastery was introduced: because Crit is the best for power. Its more expensive so Mastery rating can look better by comparison.

On the other hand, Masteries generally work like this: They can work sometimes (essentially mirroring Crit), or they can work all the time. Either way, they work on only on a small fraction of your abilities, or the power gain is far less. It appears that the rate at which Critical strike scales with gear for Discipline mirrors the way Rage used to scale with gear for Warriors and as history shows, they hated trying to balance Rage so much they finally just made it a less flexible and more tedious form of Energy.

So basically what they want to do is create the narrowest, least interesting path they can and have everyone walk on it, because good scaling on a RNG power gain is, they'd likely say, Very Bad. Apparently RNG is only good when it can consistently screw you (hey-o loot system!). Then after they've made it so you can't travel to the beach, only the end of your driveway, they'll try to spin it all nice like, "but heeey! You can still go somewhere, right! Right?"

It doesn't matter to them that stacking Crit is already a risk and not all healers would be able to make it work. Apparently greater risk does not involve greater reward, it involves redesigning the spec. You have to have your hands held, and they are going to design the Right Choice to be obvious by nerfing and changing the way critical strike heals work for just this one spec. Yeah, Disc is special alright.

The problem with these changes is Discipline only sees its theoretical maximum gains at 100% Critical strike which for most practical purposes never happens. Even at 25% Critical, assuming gratuitous scaling of 3x normal output on a crit, that's .25 * 3 = .75 or .75 power gain to be added to to the base level, so 1.75 power vs. let's say whatever might be a "normal" class that only gets 2x power from a crit, .25 * 2 = .5 or 1.5 power, that isn't a huge difference when factoring in this is the scaling of a healing spec we're talking about, and that RNG bonus can be wasted/unnecessary output, or fail them at a crucial time, if a person chooses to go the Critical route. AND it is necessary to remember that other healing specs have additional power to close the gap from their Mastery bonus too. Even by expansion's end its basically impossible anyone could reach Critical levels that would make this scaling difference a big enough problem to worry about.

So why are they?

Personally, I wish they'd spend far less energy on preventing specs from being able to scale or progress, and more on coming up with more imaginative Masteries, replacing all the dull Critical strike wanna-be's most specs have. I guess its too late though, seems like Disc is going to get crushed by the Dull Design hammer.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/16/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Kolas
It doesn't matter to them that stacking Crit is already a risk and not all healers would be able to make it work. Apparently greater risk does not involve greater reward, it involves redesigning the spec. You have to have your hands held, and they are going to design the Right Choice to be obvious by nerfing and changing the way critical strike heals work for just this one spec. Yeah, Disc is special alright.


What exactly does a healer need to do differently to make Crit stacking work? How exactly does Crit result in greater 'risk'? There's nothing inherently difficult about utilizing Crit as it's uncontrollable, and no amount of good play is going to change that.

Also, these changes bring Crit and Mastery much closer together in terms of effectiveness, which is essentially the aim of these changes. You could stack either stat and still see similar output.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/16/2013 11:17 AM PST
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