New Disc Priest Mechanics Announced On PTR!

90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
Ceddya, I apologize for switching gears mid-conversation. My first two paragraphs were referring mainly to PTR vs. proposed. My last paragraph was directed more toward live vs. proposed and the direction of the spec. Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion.

Regarding proposed crit vs. mastery, I agree only partially that they will average out over the entire duration of a fight- it will depend very heavily on the fight mechanics. However even if they did I don't know many healers who prefer unpredictable, sometimes-useful (crit) over reliable, always useful (mastery). Due to the nature of our role, it's traditionally why crit has never been popular among healers, no matter the end results. I think that psychology will rear its head here too.

Kolas makes an extremely good contextual point about masteries in general and Discipline's in specific, though I think you forgot to factor in Inner Focus. In it's current iteration, it's messing up all sorts of that theory and may be one of the driving factors in the change.
90 Troll Priest
10205
02/16/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Kolas
It doesn't matter to them that stacking Crit is already a risk and not all healers would be able to make it work. Apparently greater risk does not involve greater reward, it involves redesigning the spec. You have to have your hands held, and they are going to design the Right Choice to be obvious by nerfing and changing the way critical strike heals work for just this one spec. Yeah, Disc is special alright.


I never liked the "crit is too risky" argument because it's very de-connected from actual raiding. Health are very gradual, it's not like people are either full health or almost death. Most of the time damage is done over a certain period of time, or immediate follow by a period of little damage so that you have time to get people back up.

Crit is risky if you're in a situation where someone fall from full heal and then you only have enough time to cast one spell before the person gets hit again, and the basic version of your spell will heal for maybe 5-10% too low so that if you don't crit the person die but if you invest in mastery and has a results you,re spell is 10+% stronger then 100% of the time that person will survive. Then in that situation yes crit is too risky, simply put this situation doesn't exist.

Rather people are constantly taking damage and getting a crit means that person will be at higher health (rarely will it top people, remember our PoH heal for a very small amount of people health percentage) so there' nothing inherently risky about it, it just means there will be more randomness in people health. This will only be even more true with the upcoming change to DA.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
All of these changes seem so unnecessary and are only being done because of how badly proposed 5.2 Disc nerfs have been (the main culprit being PoH will no longer automatically cast DA and Spirit Shell no longer working with mastery).

02/14/2013 06:24 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
Recall that the main problems we are trying to fix for Disc in PvE are that they are overpowered and relying too much on Prayer of Healing spam, especially in 25s.


For the One-Millionth time, that because it's the only flipping tool we have to heal AoE damage other than pre-Spirit Shielding the raid. GC said they were against giving us a new AoE healing spell (and even agreed that we're lacking in that department!) but felt it would be too big of a change for Priests to get use to......Yet completely revamping our crits and how Divine Aegis works is A-okay.

02/14/2013 06:24 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
We made some changes to Divine Aegis, but we're not happy with them. Because of the interaction with crit and mastery, we worry Disc will be too crit-dependent and won't be strong enough when they fail to crit.


They removed Auto-Divine Aegis from PoH and now are worried that we won't be able to AoE heal in these situations....Well at least they have that insight! So instead of giving us a new spell they're trying to once again baidaid fix the situation by changing how our crit heals fundamentally work from every other healer and applying a +heal boost component to our mastery....

Why not instead:

-Revert the Divine Aegis buff (from 50% of the heal back to 30%).
-Keep the Auto-PoH Divine Aegis nerf
-Increasing Spirit Shell's cooldown to 2 min but it now once again works with mastery.
-Keep the PW:Shield can now crit buff (this is actually really nice).
-GIVE A NEW HEALING SPELL to Disc with a 6-10ish sec cooldown. A spell that compliments the absorb/healing nature of Disc, and something that we can weave in with our PoH.

With my proposed changes: Disc would value both mastery and crit, and they would have something else to do during heavy AoE damage other than POH spam and PW:Shield spam (shakes at the thought of WOLK Disc raiding).

That seems a hell of a lot easier than nerfing Auto-Divine Aegis, removing Spirit Shell's function with mastery, adding a +healing component to our mastery, and fundamentally changing how our healing crits work from every other healer in the game.
Edited by Senari on 2/16/2013 11:16 PM PST
90 Human Priest
5860
02/16/2013 11:14 PMPosted by Senari
For the One-Millionth time, that because it's the only flipping tool we have to heal AoE damage other than pre-Spirit Shielding the raid. GC said they were against giving us a new AoE healing spell (and even agreed that we're lacking in that department!) but felt it would be too big of a change for Priests to get use to......Yet completely revamping our crits and how Divine Aegis works is A-okay.

Yeah, they don't want to give us a new spell mid expansion. However, we're getting a mastery change, a buff to one of our best spells, and a glyph for binding heal to make it useful for aoe healing (assuming they fix the targeting).

Prayer of Healing will no longer be good. It will be a decent filler that we'll have to cast.
Edit: it will be better with the change, but I'll bet still not better than penance/cascade/DS/BH

I too am in favor of reverting the DA buff and keeping mastery on SS (nerfed in another way), but I'm also in favor of reworking mastery.

The only issue with your proposed set of changes is it all would depend on the mastery scaling and hps of your new aoe heal. With mastery only benefiting SS and PW:S and doing little to help burst or pulse healing, it puts disc in a more awkward spot than the mastery + DA change will. (a net 0% change from previous 5.2, if we account for crit overheal)

The new mastery will favor mixed mastery and crit (precise ratio will depend on pws usage, probably favoring mastery). Haste will still be the most throughput.
Edited by Evry on 2/16/2013 11:59 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
The only issue with your proposed set of changes is it all would depend on the mastery scaling and hps of your new aoe heal. With mastery only benefiting SS and PW:S and doing little to help burst or pulse healing, it puts disc in a more awkward spot than the mastery + DA change will. (a net 0% change from previous 5.2, if we account for crit overheal)


More awkward than making us the only healer without a +200% crit heal? I don't think so. The new AoE healing spell I had in mind would have an absorb component and healing component (benefiting from crit and mastery) and would be something you would use after burst damage or during heavy AoE damage (like Holy's CoH).
Edited by Senari on 2/17/2013 12:11 AM PST
90 Human Priest
5860
02/17/2013 12:11 AMPosted by Senari
More awkward than making us the only healer without a +200%

Before this change we got 320-360% from our crits. not 200%
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
02/17/2013 12:19 AMPosted by Evry
More awkward than making us the only healer without a +200%

Before this change we got 320-360% from our crits. not 200%


I'm talking about raw healing. We'll be the only healer without the 200% raw healing. What our mastery does after is besides the point. Most healer Mastery isn't tied to RNG crits like ours and occurs on every heal.
90 Human Priest
5860
02/17/2013 12:26 AMPosted by Senari
Most healer Mastery isn't tied to RNG crits like ours and occurs on every heal.

GOOD NEWS EVERYBODY!

...

- with the exception of pvp, having an absorb instead of a heal for the crit portion isn't strictly a nerf or buff. In situations where the DA is liable to fall off, yeah it's not super. Tank healing? Much better. Aura damage? better. Atonement spam? a wash, at worst. Probably better. Inner Focus? Worse. hope they address this, at least for PvP. Special mechanics that require spamming a person up who will then not take any damage... worse.
Edited by Evry on 2/17/2013 12:32 AM PST
90 Human Priest
11345
02/17/2013 12:31 AMPosted by Evry
GOOD NEWS EVERYBODY!


You fixed the poison slime pipes?
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
Most healer Mastery isn't tied to RNG crits like ours and occurs on every heal.

GOOD NEWS EVERYBODY!

...

- with the exception of pvp, having an absorb instead of a heal for the crit portion isn't strictly a nerf or buff. In situations where the DA is liable to fall off, yeah it's not super. Tank healing? Much better. Aura damage? better. Atonement spam? a wash, at worst. Probably better. Inner Focus? Worse. hope they address this, at least for PvP. Special mechanics that require spamming a person up who will then not take any damage... worse.


We'll still be the only healer without the +200% raw healing. Why change the way our spells crit? Why not nerf Divine Aegis to 30% of the heal, keep the +200% crit heal, adjust mastery to provide +absorbs and +healing like they're suggesting, and at least leave it at that - if they're not going to do what they should do and give us a new AoE healing spell.
Edited by Senari on 2/17/2013 12:42 AM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/17/2013 12:41 AMPosted by Senari
We'll still be the only healer without the +200% raw healing.


It doesn't matter. You'll still be doing 200% effective healing, and absorbs are preferable to raw healing in almost every situation.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
02/17/2013 12:49 AMPosted by Anarri
We'll still be the only healer without the +200% raw healing.


It doesn't matter. You'll still be doing 200% effective healing, and absorbs are preferable to raw healing in almost every situation.


Except PvP....you know, where Disc is already bottom-of-the-pits.

There's no reason to change it to begin with and there's no reason for us to be the only healers without the +200% raw healing.

It's raw healing what Disc needs, not effective.
100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Its because Mastery for most specs is basically just a version of Critical strike that affects only a small segment of your abilities.

Chance for your dots to tick twice (Shadow). Chance for an additional attack (Arms). Chance for a free Lightning Bolt (Elemental). On and on. There's not much imagination or originality going into it, across most specs.


And this is also true for all three specs of hunters, all three specs of rogues, ret pallies, arms and fury warriors. I never once thought about that until I saw your post. Amusingly, there is a touch more originality for arcane and fire mages. The mana adept mastery for arcane ties the extra damage to the amount of mana the mage has, so it's an obnoxious little mini game. Fire's mastery (ignite) adds a DoT that needs to be managed for proper combustions.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/17/2013 12:53 AMPosted by Senari


It doesn't matter. You'll still be doing 200% effective healing, and absorbs are preferable to raw healing in almost every situation.


Except PvP....you know, where Disc is already bottom-of-the-pits.

There's no reason to change it to begin with and there's no reason for us to be the only healers without the +200% raw healing.

It's raw healing what Disc needs, not effective.


Senari, everyone has acknowledged that this is an issue for PvP. However, it's not at all a bad thing for PvE. This is a great change for PvE.
100 Human Priest
18300
02/17/2013 12:53 AMPosted by Senari


It doesn't matter. You'll still be doing 200% effective healing, and absorbs are preferable to raw healing in almost every situation.


Except PvP....you know, where Disc is already bottom-of-the-pits.

There's no reason to change it to begin with and there's no reason for us to be the only healers without the +200% raw healing.

It's raw healing what Disc needs, not effective.

I'm copying what I said here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7811342046?page=114#2278

It seems like most of the complaints are that crit for disc is too random, and this new model is unreliable when we need actual healing. It's a contradiction to say this because the raw healing done got buffed under this new system.

Just look at the new mastery without absorbs. The ability to do actual healing, with the old 200% crits, is inferior to this new mastery model from a raw healing perspective. The only way this doesn't happen is if you were stacking crit on live instead of mastery. But if you were stacking crit instead of mastery, you weren't stacking a reliable stat in the first place.

If anything, you should be saying that this new model is more reliable for doing actual healing because it places your healing throughput from secondary stats in your control 100% of the time.

Examples:

at 30% from the old mastery:
- at 10% crit this is a 0.6% nerf
- at 15% crit this is a 5% nerf
- at 20% crit this is a 9% nerf

at 40% mastery of the old mastery:
- at 10% crit this is a 2.3% buff
- at 15% crit this is a 2.2% nerf
- at 20% crit this is a 6.4% nerf

at 50% of the old mastery:
- at 10% crit this is a 5.2% buff
- at 15% crit this is a 0.5% buff

at 60% of the old mastery:
- at 10% crit this is a 8.1% buff
- at 15% crit this is a 3.3% buff

What I'm getting at is that if you want to play disc like a reactive healer, you can stack mastery for pure healing throughput and you'll probably notice the bigger impact it has on your performance compared to how you're doing on the live patch. I thought pvp'ers were going to be overjoyed that they can reliably boost their throughput without using lucky crits.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945


Except PvP....you know, where Disc is already bottom-of-the-pits.

There's no reason to change it to begin with and there's no reason for us to be the only healers without the +200% raw healing.

It's raw healing what Disc needs, not effective.


Senari, everyone has acknowledged that this is an issue for PvP. However, it's not at all a bad thing for PvE. This is a great change for PvE.


I'm all for the mastery change. Though, the reason why they're changing it is because they're too lazy to give us another healing tool. But why change the way our spells crit, where we'd be significantly different from every other healer. I don't see a reason for it, especially if they just reverted the DA buff..

As for PvP, I'm sorry but I just don't have any faith in them to address the PvP side effects that comes from such drastic changes.
100 Human Priest
18300
I'm guessing that the long desired short cooldown aoe is in the cards for next expansion, not just for our class, but for all healers. The "theoretical post" that GC dropped a while back about having an aoe healing model similar to the one we have for single targets sounds like the preliminary thoughts on that type of thing.

As for pvp, the default ui isn't very good at displaying how much of an absorb is on the target you're trying to burst down. The new ptr ui that shows absorbs is a step in the right direction, but the advantages of having one class forking away at someone with absorbs versus the other team forking away at someone with no absorbs means you can assist with damage, or in other words, beat them down more and win teh numbers game. That doesn't seem to be getting as much discussion as the loss of recovery healing.

It also looks like a veiled attempt at punishing priests for not predicting damage correctly. It is thematically okay for disc to be the type of healer that feels like it was caught with it's pants down if absorbs weren't used effectively. But that's just an opinion.
90 Blood Elf Priest
13150
Overall, I'm pretty delighted with the direction of the changes to the changes. I'm not saying I DID wonder if they made changes to us via the science of dart boards ("What's the board say?" "Buff." "Again? Really?" "Yep. Rapture. To 200%." "That's going to end badly." "Yeah. But that's what the board says. Whaddya gonna do?"), the mastery changes have made me not anymore. If I ever did.... Anyway, it's clever and thoughtful, addresses several things at once, and reincorporates mastery back into (most of) the spec. (I'm still confused about how it will not work with SS--it will not benefit from the .8 to healing part?) I do agree with Senari in that I wish they had started by simply reverting some stuff, and more and more I'm thinking that giving SS a longer cd might have gone/would go a long way to addressing poh spam, along with the removal of auto DA. They've given us some genuine alternatives to poh when 3 people take damage which is great. So they've come up with some creative ways to fix what they wanted to fix while giving us more options, our mastery back, a small boost to raw healing, while still being "true" to the spec as I understand it.

Tidy. I like it.

02/17/2013 03:59 AMPosted by Twistedmind
It also looks like a veiled attempt at punishing priests for not predicting damage correctly. It is thematically okay for disc to be the type of healer that feels like it was caught with it's pants down if absorbs weren't used effectively. But that's just an opinion.


Maybe, but they're also deliberately and increasingly making it harder to predict damage correctly (RoB, Get Away, etc.), which I can understand, but then it's not "predicting correctly," just guessing correctly.
90 Pandaren Priest
12925
I'd start by saying these newer changes seem better with PoH being stripped of guaranteed DA in mind. In terms of each change individually....

PW:S Interacting with Critical Strike

This fixes a longstanding issue with PW:S having no synergy with critical strike, which is a good idea.

I do have some concerns with how this is going to play into rapture. I'd rather see critical strike with PW:S work similar to how SS incorporates critical strike on live, in that it automatically factors it into the spell as a flat throughput boost. The only concern there would be making PW:S too strong or causing it to scale too well. This could be fixed by adjusting the base PW:S absorb value, by lowering the SP coefficient, the base value added to the SP coefficient or both.

Mastery Increasing both Healing and Absorbs

This also seems like a good idea because it lowers the potency of absorbs but boosts the potency of pure healing to compensate, and does so without devaluing mastery. So I'd be all for this change.

DA Change

I'm still skeptical of this change and really don't like it at all. With this DA change thrown into the mix critical heals are going to be less valuable overall and fairly bad for replenishing health bars.

I'd rate this change as a step in the wrong direction. For a while now Discipline has been an absorption healer, but recently the absorption aspect of the spec has been too strong. This is because the absorbs are too big, not that they are just universally better than healing. To me it seems the best way to correct this would be to raise the pure healing output of the spec but lower the absorb output. This DA change doesn't accomplish this at all. In fact, unless I am missing something, the DA change means critical heals provide roughly the same absorbs but less pure healing.

My other area of disagreement stems from not liking the concept of DA in general. This mechanism where you have to land a critical heal to get an absorb has never set well with me. I still stand by previous statements made suggesting they design DA to be similar to Paladin mastery. By this I mean drop DA down to a much smaller percent bonus but make it come guaranteed on most spells that aren't a pure absorb. Then it's just a matter of adjusting the DA cap appropriately.
Edited by Volios on 2/17/2013 9:02 AM PST
100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
02/17/2013 03:59 AMPosted by Twistedmind
The "theoretical post" that GC dropped a while back about having an aoe healing model similar to the one we have for single targets sounds like the preliminary thoughts on that type of thing.

Because the single target version of that model has worked SO well...
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