New Disc Priest Mechanics Announced On PTR!

90 Human Priest
5860
Um, not really. Especially if they revert the DA 50% buff back to 30%. The reason why they're changing our mastery to begin with is because they're worried we won't be able to compete with other healers after the fact that they gutted our PoH and removed Spirit Shell's added power from mastery. With those two changes, our current mastery now only benefits PW:S and occasional Divine Aegis crits. They're also then worried that because of these two changes Disc Priests won't see mastery as a good stat and they're right.

Keep in mind that the new mastery change comes with a reduction to the absorption part of our mastery.


Um, they aren't reverting the 50% DA change. They're changing DA to be 100%.
I'm not sure if you're deliberately being thick or not.

GC stated that the reason for the new 5.2 change (in mastery and DA) is they felt it was bad to make Disc dependent on an RNG stat (crit) with mastery being so badly nerfed (sorry Monks). It's not because they think Disc needs a total throughput buff.

You also seem to forget that the healing portion of the mastery will be calculated in the DA size, not just the absorb mastery. In fact it gets counted twice. Maybe you would rather they did the changes differently, and I would like it if they didn't have ridiculous 50% DA in the first place. However, we do, and they already decided to remove auto-DA and mastery from Spirit Shell.

Instead of leaving us dependent on Crit for throughput, with mastery being useless, we get a mastery that's somewhat interesting. This is a better change than the previous 5.2 changes. Pure numberwise, if you find the maximizing mastery:crit ratio, it's a throughput loss compared to current PTR crit stacking. However, the crit portion of heals overheals more than the non crit portion, so likely it balances out.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
02/17/2013 07:47 PMPosted by Taymage
We're losing our 200% raw crit healing bonus unlike all other healers who will have their 200% raw crit + mastery bonus (even when they don't crit).


I'm sorry to be thick, but I have no idea what you are trying to say.


Live:

Pally/Shaman/Druid/HPriest

They non-crit heal for X, Mastery does an extra Y all the time (except for Shamans)
They crit for 200% raw healing, Mastery does an additional Y.

Disc Priests

We heal for X, Mastery does nothing unless we crit, then it does a large Y (DA).

Proposed Changes (PTR):

Pally/Shaman/Druid/HPriest

They non-crit heal for X, Mastery does an extra Y all the time (except for Shamans)
They crit for 200% raw healing, Mastery does an additional Y.

Disc Priests

We non-crit heal for X + a little Y
We crit for 100% raw healing + a little Y, Mastery does an additional large Y (DA).

Am I getting the point across? We shouldn't be losing our 200% raw crit healing.

02/17/2013 07:48 PMPosted by Fistlobster
We're losing our 200% raw crit healing bonus unlike all other healers who will have their 200% raw crit + mastery bonus (even when they don't crit).

As a Mistweaver, what mastery bonus? So I get a chance to spawn a healing sphere. Whoopdee-friggin-do. Granted, that sphere will explode in 30 secs for half the heal but...it's so meh.

I'll just show myself to the door. Don't worry about bugging the bouncer, I can kick myself out. :D


I'm sorry :(

02/17/2013 07:54 PMPosted by Volios
Um, not really. Especially if they revert the DA 50% buff back to 30%.


Wait, nerf one of the areas they buffed which is responsible for part of the problem to begin with? Blasphemy.


I know, it's crazy!
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
Um, they aren't reverting the 50% DA change. They're changing DA to be 100%.
I'm not sure if you're deliberately being thick or not.

GC stated that the reason for the new 5.2 change (in mastery and DA) is they felt it was bad to make Disc dependent on an RNG stat (crit) with mastery being so badly nerfed (sorry Monks). It's not because they think Disc needs a total throughput buff.


02/14/2013 06:24 PMPosted by Ghostcrawler
We made some changes to Divine Aegis, but we're not happy with them. Because of the interaction with crit and mastery, we worry Disc will be too crit-dependent and won't be strong enough when they fail to crit.


Why do they worry we'll be too crit dependent? Because our mastery will now only benefit PW:S and DA crits. Our mastery won't work with POH 100% of the time anymore (our only AoE heal), nor will it work with Spirit Shell. AKA: Our mastery won't work with our bread and butter spells anymore and they're afraid we won't be "strong enough when we don't crit."

Therefore, the mastery change is to also provide a slight throughput boost when we don't crit.

Instead of leaving us dependent on Crit for throughput, with mastery being useless, we get a mastery that's somewhat interesting. This is a better change than the previous 5.2 changes. Pure numberwise, if you find the maximizing mastery:crit ratio, it's a throughput loss compared to current PTR crit stacking. However, the crit portion of heals overheals more than the non crit portion, so likely it balances out.


I'm all for the mastery change, just don't touch our +200% raw crit healing. If it's somehow deemed overpowered to have the cake and eat it too (it's not) then further tweak the numbers so that we're not the odd ball healers with only a 100%crit bonus.
Edited by Senari on 2/17/2013 8:27 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
13150

Our crits were doing a fair bit more than other healers' crits, though.


As many above already pointed out this isn't really true. Yes our crits provided more when we crit BUT that's what our entire mastery is based upon, critting. Not to mention DA is currently at a unnecessary 50% of the each crit heal. Other healer Mastery occurs every heal making up for the fact that Disc crits are "more powerful."

Regardless I never ever saw GC, a dev, or any other healer on the forums complain about Disc crits....

They complained about Auto-DA and Spirit Shell.


Except for the part where you all agreed that it IS true, but then stipulated that when looked at overall and in context, and minus the unnecessary 50% aegis, it sort of evens out. Of course, when you look at disc overall and in context, we don't even out--we're way ahead, nerfs are called for, and this is one piece of getting there. Because I think you're right--crits were really the least of it.

I think the proposed changes give Blizzard maximum PvE problem solving bang for the buck. I think from their perspective, in terms of suppressing other healers and encounter tuning, rolling DA was a problem; mastery turning SS into a poh throughput increase was a problem (which I'm pretty sure I remember players knowing about prior to launch); absorbs trivializing mechanics for raids with a disc priest was a problem; priests feeling obliged to play disc was a problem, meter....fans flocking to the spec was a problem.

From my perspective, most of the buffs were bordering on outrageous--I still don't understand why they chose them, or what they were thinking, or why they designed mechanics and our cds that trivialize them to coincide so neatly, and then, once they decided all of these things were a problem, they didn't just revert things one by one and reassess. The opportunities feel missed. But here we are. So keeping timers hidden from mods, making absorb blanketing unpredictable (which encourages the use of SS for when it's needed), shuffling us down on the meters, giving us improved penance, glyphed binding heal, and slightly cheaper shields as alternatives to poh, and letting mastery give a small boost to healing makes mastery relevant to most of our spells, keeps encounters more evenly challenging across raid groups, gives us the kind of aoe help that will bore meter fans, frees people up to play holy if they felt compelled to play disc, maybe renews people's interest in other classes, and lets people already playing other classes show up properly.

I don't like the change to DA, and I think the surest way to healer's heart to compel versatility and behavior changes is through our mana, so I think there are probably a lot of different ways to get to here, but they're trying to tame a hydra (of their own making) without hacking off too many more heads.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12945


As many above already pointed out this isn't really true. Yes our crits provided more when we crit BUT that's what our entire mastery is based upon, critting. Not to mention DA is currently at a unnecessary 50% of the each crit heal. Other healer Mastery occurs every heal making up for the fact that Disc crits are "more powerful."

Regardless I never ever saw GC, a dev, or any other healer on the forums complain about Disc crits....

They complained about Auto-DA and Spirit Shell.


Except for the part where you all agreed that it IS true, but then stipulated that when looked at overall and in context, and minus the unnecessary 50% aegis, it sort of evens out. Of course, when you look at disc overall and in context, we don't even out--we're way ahead, nerfs are called for, and this is one piece of getting there. Because I think you're right--crits were really the least of it.

I think the proposed changes give Blizzard maximum PvE problem solving bang for the buck. I think from their perspective, in terms of suppressing other healers and encounter tuning, rolling DA was a problem; mastery turning SS into a poh throughput increase was a problem (which I'm pretty sure I remember players knowing about prior to launch); absorbs trivializing mechanics for raids with a disc priest was a problem; priests feeling obliged to play disc was a problem, meter....fans flocking to the spec was a problem.

From my perspective, most of the buffs were bordering on outrageous--I still don't understand why they chose them, or what they were thinking, or why they designed mechanics and our cds that trivialize them to coincide so neatly, and then, once they decided all of these things were a problem, they didn't just revert things one by one and reassess. The opportunities feel missed. But here we are. So keeping timers hidden from mods, making absorb blanketing unpredictable (which encourages the use of SS for when it's needed), shuffling us down on the meters, giving us improved penance, glyphed binding heal, and slightly cheaper shields as alternatives to poh, and letting mastery give a small boost to healing makes mastery relevant to most of our spells, keeps encounters more evenly challenging across raid groups, gives us the kind of aoe help that will bore meter fans, frees people up to play holy if they felt compelled to play disc, maybe renews people's interest in other classes, and lets people already playing other classes show up properly.

I don't like the change to DA, and I think the surest way to healer's heart to compel versatility and behavior changes is through our mana, so I think there are probably a lot of different ways to get to here, but they're trying to tame a hydra (of their own making) without hacking off too many more heads.


I know nerfs were called for (And I too would of liked to just see all the outrageous buffs reverted).

They gave us the nerf hammer hard (Auto-DA gone from PoH, Rapture reduction, & mastery no longer working with SS). These weren't the right changes. They should of reverted the DA buff, the PoH buff, and nerfed Spirit Shell's cooldown to 2min. We would of been fine and severely nerfed there alone. But we'd be fine.

Now because of their wrong changes they're trying to make sure we stay afloat by changing our mastery and how are spells crit. It's just a giant mess.
Edited by Senari on 2/17/2013 8:35 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
6860
02/17/2013 08:15 PMPosted by Senari
Am I getting the point across? We shouldn't be losing our 200% raw crit healing.


The way I see it? The change makes disc priests more raid stabilizers and damage soakers. The problem was that disc priests had the best of both worlds prior to 5.2: damage prevention and raid heals. Blanket DA was a problem. You probably weren't a contributor to this, so I'm sorry. In simply removing DA from PoH, this removes the problem, but in doing so, makes Disc pretty much Holy with less powerful raid cooldowns.

To give Disc that unique feeling, I assume this is why the crit change was applied. This keeps Disc feeling stand-out, but we're still not sure if it's for better or worse quite yet. This does reduce Disc's raw numbers, but it also equates to more powerful DAs and making crit a more appealing, but still less helpful, stat. This also keeps other healers from feeling just unneeded.

But this is coming from someone who is relatively unexperienced in Disc. I played Holy though Cata, never touched Disc, and only started playing it this expansion, so I know I still have a lot to learn. This is just my take on it, simple opinion.

02/17/2013 08:15 PMPosted by Senari
I'm sorry :(

Not your fault my mastery is relatively useless. :D The problem is that it's just too RNG dependent, not only in if it procs but where it procs, and it requires people to actually move to the sphere to get the healing, and if you're a DPS, SCREW THAT NOISE, I DONT WANNA LOSE DPS. I'm actually looking forward to this next patch, as it'll make my mastery like your crit: less hated but still worthless.
90 Goblin Priest
14695
02/17/2013 08:44 PMPosted by Fistlobster
but it also equates to more powerful DAs


How do you figure?
90 Pandaren Monk
6860
02/17/2013 08:54 PMPosted by Crzed
but it also equates to more powerful DAs


How do you figure?

The extra 100% is now the DA, instead of the 30%. So you probably won't see more DA, but when you do proc it, they will be pretty big.
90 Goblin Priest
14695
02/17/2013 08:58 PMPosted by Fistlobster
The extra 100% is now the DA, instead of the 30%. So you probably won't see more DA, but when you do proc it, they will be pretty big.


DA was 50%. 50% of 200% is 100%. They're just spreading that 2x crit healing out via the healing change to mastery.
90 Pandaren Monk
6860
Oh. Hm, why was I thinking 30%? Huh. I'll just show myself out, then.
8 Dwarf Priest
0
Those bonuses don't only proc on crits though. They happen naturally all the time.


Yeah, thanks. You're absolutely right. I wish I'd had the sense to point this out, it just seems to reinforce my position. Other healer Masteries work all the time, not just on critical hits.

This massively closes the gap of Disc's so-called Crit advantages. (Cuz that was the problem). But I guess its a moot point, Disc is now getting an "always on" bonus from their Mastery too, we can be just like everyone else.

Blizz is getting ready to take the "critical hit feel" right out of Critical strikes. Just for Disc. Leaving everything else the same, equivalent Aegis, but nerfing those green numbers yo. (Cuz those were the problem). I guess they feel guilty over the Mastery homogenization so this is like a repentance design? Homogenize an individuality out, but then add in something new that's unique. Well thanks guys! I can't wait until you make my 20% crit feel like 0%! By the way when are you adding shield messages into the scrolling combat text for healers!

I'm not sure nerfing Disc's healing, and crit "feeling," instead of their absorbs, is going to fix anything but hey let's see what happens...........
02/17/2013 09:03 PMPosted by Fistlobster
Oh. Hm, why was I thinking 30%? Huh. I'll just show myself out, then.

Because DA was 30% until it got buffed to 50% earlier in the expansion, and the tooltip was not updated to reflect that due to how tooltips work.
90 Undead Priest
16470
02/17/2013 06:14 PMPosted by Taymage
feel free to use Heal.


Please don't return to these forums... ever again.
90 Undead Priest
16470
02/17/2013 07:54 PMPosted by Volios
Um, not really. Especially if they revert the DA 50% buff back to 30%.


Wait, nerf one of the areas they buffed which is responsible for part of the problem to begin with? Blasphemy.


30% DA wasn't a problem and in fact it left us 20% behind the crowd. 50% is a problem (when coupled with a 25% PoH buff).
Why not just revert the change rather than gutting the class?

History lesson:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/14/180/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

Disc was doing 2/3rd the healing of the top healer at launch. and 22% less than our alternate Holy Healing spec. Now the tables are flippled all because of of two buffs to our 1 spell, a spell that we'll already have a harder time casting the same way thanks to the rapture changes in 5.2.

PoH needs a nerf, but does our entire class need to be reworked early expansion?
Removing crit bonuses?
Mastery as a flat bonus heal?
What do these changes have to do with 1 spell being overpowered?

Remove our ability to cast PoH for 6 minutes straight and nerf it's absorb output a bit and voila our overpoweredness is solved.
90 Blood Elf Priest
14540
02/18/2013 08:10 AMPosted by Poena
Why not just revert the change rather than gutting the class?


Disc reliably taking the edge off every encounter mechanic was a "bring the class, not the player" problem that wouldn't be permanently fixed by number-tweaking. The better fix really is to remove the auto-DA mechanic. The rest of the changes mostly make sure we're good at something besides that.

02/18/2013 08:10 AMPosted by Poena
PoH needs a nerf, but does our entire class need to be reworked early expansion?


Better late than never. Beta would've been better, when folks expect big changes and don't get as frightened.
90 Undead Priest
16470
02/18/2013 09:01 AMPosted by Nerfheals
Why not just revert the change rather than gutting the class?


Disc reliably taking the edge off every encounter mechanic was a "bring the class, not the player" problem that wouldn't be permanently fixed by number-tweaking. The better fix really is to remove the auto-DA mechanic. The rest of the changes mostly make sure we're good at something besides that.


Not one of these changes make us good at anything else as every other class single target and raid heals better than us and in 5.2 Holy Paladin's will doing a higher percentage of Healing through Absorbs than we will (because they can control their absorbs).

02/18/2013 09:01 AMPosted by Nerfheals
PoH needs a nerf, but does our entire class need to be reworked early expansion?


Better late than never. Beta would've been better, when folks expect big changes and don't get as frightened.


The problem is it's being rushed and poorly thought out and with literally no testing (Blizz always claims the problem with Disc is in 25man raids... and yet they've done zero testing).
90 Pandaren Monk
6860
02/18/2013 01:17 PMPosted by Poena


Disc reliably taking the edge off every encounter mechanic was a "bring the class, not the player" problem that wouldn't be permanently fixed by number-tweaking. The better fix really is to remove the auto-DA mechanic. The rest of the changes mostly make sure we're good at something besides that.


Not one of these changes make us good at anything else as every other class single target and raid heals better than us and in 5.2 Holy Paladin's will doing a higher percentage of Healing through Absorbs than we will (because they can control their absorbs).



Better late than never. Beta would've been better, when folks expect big changes and don't get as frightened.


The problem is it's being rushed and poorly thought out and with literally no testing (Blizz always claims the problem with Disc is in 25man raids... and yet they've done zero testing).

How do you know? If they weren't testing these at all, then they'd already be on live servers, where the vast majority of players are.

These changes are on the Public Test Realm, where they do make constant changes and number tweaking multiple times before the changes go live.

Let me repeat where these are taking place.

Public. TEST. Realm.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
These changes are on the Public Test Realm, where they do make constant changes and number tweaking multiple times before the changes go live.

Let me repeat where these are taking place.

Public. TEST. Realm.


Actually, the changes aren't on the PTR yet, and there's likely only a week left of testing. You really should double check before calling someone out.
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