best-to-worst melee dps

100 Troll Rogue
21855
02/22/2013 08:11 AMPosted by Turmoyl
ret is really the worst melee at the moment. you the data is especially accurate with them because they are one of the most played specs in the game.

When you ask a question about "best" there are a couple ways you can read that, in terms of absolute dps or in terms of desirability. Absolute dps numbers are much less relevant then they used to be because dps specs are reasonably (although not perfectly) balanced. By contrast most raids are built be looking at the full toolkit, things like defensive raid cds, and other powerful utility.

Secondly while spec score is better then absolute dps rankings it still suffers from similar issues of allowing special fights to heavily inflate trends. For instance look at combat and assassination on spec score, based on that you would expect to see combat as quite competitive with assassination across all fights when in fact on most fights combat appears behind by 5-10%. Combat however is quite dominent on a number of cleave fights which substantially inflates its spec score.

Raid bots is useful certainly but simply averaging together dps across all fights (even with some normalization applied) ignores important realities of fight specific dps balance.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5620
ret is really the worst melee at the moment. you the data is especially accurate with them because they are one of the most played specs in the game.

When you ask a question about "best" there are a couple ways you can read that, in terms of absolute dps or in terms of desirability. Absolute dps numbers are much less relevant then they used to be because dps specs are reasonably (although not perfectly) balanced. By contrast most raids are built be looking at the full toolkit, things like defensive raid cds, and other powerful utility.

Secondly while spec score is better then absolute dps rankings it still suffers from similar issues of allowing special fights to heavily inflate trends. For instance look at combat and assassination on spec score, based on that you would expect to see combat as quite competitive with assassination across all fights when in fact on most fights combat appears behind by 5-10%. Combat however is quite dominent on a number of cleave fights which substantially inflates its spec score.

Raid bots is useful certainly but simply averaging together dps across all fights (even with some normalization applied) ignores important realities of fight specific dps balance.


your right. i completely forgot to look at the actual dps they are doing. hmm even after looking at overal dps ret is still underperformed in most fights. sure you can talk raid utility but have you ever seen a ret heal a raid? if you have was it worth the GCD of not doing dps to do it. i know a few raid utility is useful for some fight like hand of freedom for first boss in msv. What annoys me is when people try to use raid utility as an excuse. Basically saying "sure you are more skilled, gear and have to do more work in the raid but i don't have as much as you so i should do a lot more dps than you".
Edited by Turmoyl on 2/22/2013 10:52 AM PST
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100 Troll Rogue
21855
02/22/2013 11:04 AMPosted by Sanctifiêd
when would you rather have a ret paladin over a fury warrior?

Better question, why would you take any melee over a fury warrior? Warriors are clearly the strongest melee dps in the game with a very strong and versatile offensive and defensive toolkit.

Sure ret shares utility with holy and prot but realistically you are only going to have at most 2 holy paladins and 1 prot in a 25 man. Figure most raid groups probably have 1-2 holy+prot paladins there is plenty of room for a ret paladin.

02/22/2013 10:50 AMPosted by Turmoyl
. i know a few raid utility is useful for some fight like hand of freedom for first boss in msv. What annoys me is when people try to use raid utility as an excuse

Ideally defensive raid cds would be confined to tanks and healers, that would make balancing assumptions much easier and then we would establish toolkits entirely based on offensive abilities. Without that design however we have to consider defensive raid utility when attempting to balance toolkits/desirability.
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100 Human Paladin
10165
Sure ret shares utility with holy and prot but realistically you are only going to have at most 2 holy paladins and 1 prot in a 25 man. Figure most raid groups probably have 1-2 holy+prot paladins there is plenty of room for a ret paladin.


But why bring a ret paladin when you could bring a warrior or a rogue? In this example, a ret paladin would only be favored if you have no prot or holy paladins already.

There could be plenty of room, but realistically, who wants to sacrifice higher dps for more of the same utility prot and holy already bring?
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90 Human Paladin
9125
I agree Thadium I don't see ret paladins anywhere near the top of the charts anymore. There really is no incentive to take a failadin into a raid when you can bring in a warrior or a rouge that can faceroll dps over a Ret Paladin. Rets are totally useless. Regardless of what the fan boys will start to say... The numbers just don't lie.
Edited by Santo on 2/24/2013 1:46 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
23560
Obviously DPS is everything.

Top guilds nearly all have a ret. Ever asked yourself why ?
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57 Night Elf Druid
15190
02/24/2013 01:45 PMPosted by Santo
I agree Thadium I don't see ret paladins anywhere near the top of the charts anymore. There really is no incentive to take a failadin into a raid when you can bring in a warrior or a rouge that can faceroll dps over a Ret Paladin. Rets are totally useless. Regardless of what the fan boys will start to say... The numbers just don't lie.


02/21/2013 11:22 PMPosted by Prunie
Because ret isn't as awful as you forum warriors make it out to be.


Copy > pasta answer aside, have you actually read the thread?

The reasons for bringing a ret, as well as the entirely truthful fact that DPS are chosen much more for utility reasons rather than raw numbers these days, have all been briefly (but very professionally) explained.

There are plenty of reasons to bring ret paladins to raids even if they're not curb-stomping everyone else in DPS.
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90 Human Paladin
9125
Obviously DPS is everything.

Top guilds nearly all have a ret. Ever asked yourself why ?


So they can switch them to heals or tank which is their primary function not dps..... Rets are useless they just fill a minor gap. And my information is not just based on LFR. But based on recruitment on trade chat and group compositions that I have witnessed. Again most discussions are trending to "rets are a b class spot".
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100 Human Paladin
23560
02/24/2013 07:40 PMPosted by Santo
So they can switch them to heals or tank which is their primary function not dps..... Rets are useless they just fill a minor gap. And my information is not just based on LFR. But based on recruitment on trade chat and group compositions that I have witnessed. Again most discussions are trending to "rets are a b class spot".


Nope.

Edit:
But based on recruitment on trade chat
NVM just noticed that. That completly killed anything you've said. Not only that but you don't even gem correctly. Why would anyone listen ?
Edited by Madawk on 2/24/2013 8:30 PM PST
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100 Troll Rogue
21855
02/24/2013 07:40 PMPosted by Santo
So they can switch them to heals or tank which is their primary function not dps..... Rets are useless they just fill a minor gap.

Ret paladins are useful outside of tanking and healing and just to attempt to demonstrate lets look at every fight this tier. As a note my guild runs 2 holy paladins and 1 ret, 3 paladins. For each fight listed you can make use of 3 sets of paladin utility as listed. All of these are being considered on heroic.

Stone Guard: Devo Aura for bad explosion or buffering bad chains.
Feng: Devo Aura for numerous bursts, Sac for tanks.
Gara'jal-BoP and Sac for tank/dolls, Devo Aura for add damage.
Spirit Kings: BoP for arrows, Sac for tanks, Devo Aura for reflect phase.
Elegon: Devo Aura for burn phase and spark explosions.
Will: Devo Aura for pulsing AoE, Sac for tanks.
Vizier: BoP for tanks/healers in end phase.
Blade Lord: BoP/Purity for Wind Step, Devo Aura for Tornado Phase
Garalon: Devo Aura for pheromones.
Wind Lord: Sac for tanks.
Amber Shaper: Sac for tanks, Devo Aura for burn phase.
Empress: BoP for Cry, Devo Aura for P3, Sac for tanks.
Protectors: Devo Aura for burn phase.
Tsulong: Devo Aura for sun beam RNG.
Lei Shi: Sac for Tanks, Devo Aura for Get Away
Sha: BoP for Platforms, Purity for Huddle, Devo Aura for late P2 ball tosses.

Sure there are some bosses where paladin utility is less useful but they you have bosses like empress or sha where paladins are absolutely amazing.

Don't get me wrong warriors are better at defensive utility (and offensive utility and pretty much everything) but that is true of all melee. In a 25 man setting rets clearly have an important role.
Edited by Fierydemise on 2/24/2013 8:40 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
23560
Ret is easily passed up by another melee spec. Especially in 10 mans.

Ret has absolutely no PVE niche. Fury warriors have high damage and battle standards. Nobody will take a ret for their "utility".


And I'd prefer a mage or a lock over a hunter. Your point ?
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100 Human Paladin
23560
Hunter can bring any raid buff and have consistent mobile dps. Considering most raids take more ranged than melee I don't see a problem with hunters finding a raid spot.

Melee spots in 10 man are very tight. Ret is hardly necessary or even optimal.


To be fair melee isn't necessary at all the way it is right now.

Thing is that ret isn't optimal but it's fine and bring some unique buffs like BoP while still being able to do a very respectable amount of dps. I'm doing good enough for myself and so are the are the others in top guilds.

I don't see any need to argue further.
Edited by Madawk on 2/24/2013 9:11 PM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
17805
All I see here is:

Waaaaaaaaah I'm not number one.


Even though: Rets have utility. Rets have good burst. Rets are not the best but within an acceptable margin. Rets are brought to top guilds that kill all the things.

Just cool your jets. Please. You're getting really annoying.

And to say they aren't actively recruited . . . so what? Nothing is actively recruited outside of mages, warlocks, and holy paladins anyway.
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57 Night Elf Druid
15190
02/24/2013 09:05 PMPosted by Kalorea
Melee spots in 10 man are very tight. Ret is hardly necessary or even optimal.


Wait, we're talking about ten man?

You have more than 10 classes, and over 30 various specs among those classes.

Of course you're going to find speccs and even classes which are less than desirable in a situation where you can't even fit one of every class into your raid. That's just the way it is, sorry.

If you're going to start talking about ten man viability, you can just sweep the entire rogue class away and not notice a difference. I wouldn't start arguing about how ret's not having a spot in progression 10s is a valid point.
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100 Draenei Paladin
15775
The reason why I keep getting invites to raids as a ret pally? Maybe because sometimes the class isn't > the player.

also...

02/24/2013 03:06 PMPosted by Lobster
NO! DPS IS EVERYTHING! I need to hit my buttons harder than all the other button hitters or else my arbitrary numbers won't be NUMBA 1 on the rainbow chart and no one will love me!!


I want your babies. Your rainbow chart babies.
Edited by Holyseed on 2/25/2013 8:46 PM PST
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