The Alliance and Lordaeron

86 Undead Mage
1320
Why does the Alliance feel entitled to Lordaeron? I've ssen alot of posts saying something similar to
"The Alliance should finally take Lordaeron back! It's ours!"
However, many of the people who actually made Lordaeron what it was are now living there...as the Forsaken. What claim do the Alliance think they have compared to the original owners? Why do they want it anyway? If it's about having a city then just go take Stromgarde.
Thoughts?
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90 Human Rogue
10570
Let's do a little background first.

The Scourge destroyed Lordaeron during the Third War, the Scourge was made up primarily of undead from Lordaeron.
Many living citizens of Lordaeron escaped to Khaz Modan, Stormwind and even Theramore (how ironic that it was later destroyed by the Horde).
The Forsaken broke free of Scourge and were pulled together by Sylvanas.
Sylvanas offered to help Garithos (the highest ranking leader left in Lordaeron and recognized by the Alliance as such) and his men reclaim thier land (and Capital City) from the Scourge.
Once Lordaeron was freed from the Scourge Sylvanas and her Forsaken turned on Garithos killing him and his men.

Now, as for why the Alliance wants Lordaeron back:
It was once one of Humanity's greatest nations (the Alliance of Lordaeron is where the Alliance gets it's name).
Sylvanas made an agreement with the Alliance (thru Garithos) to return the land to them.
Not all of the "original owners" are part of the Forsaken, some still belong to the Scourge, some are *gasp* still alive and want their homes/lands back.
As for claims the Alliance has, again the still living citizens of Lordaeron have a very strong claim on the land (again the Forsaken have died and accordingly have no claim other than squatters rights).
Also, let's not forget the citizens of Southshore. A farming/fishing village that was part of the Kingdom of Lordaeron that the Forsaken destroyed because it was inhabited by the living.

With all that being said, as far as I'm concerned the Forsaken can keep it I want Stromgarde back.
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86 Undead Mage
1320
02/15/2013 08:31 AMPosted by Sorcies
With all that being said, as far as I'm concerned the Forsaken can keep it I want Stromgarde back.

Exactly. You have Stromgarde to retake, Theramore to consider rebuilding, Kul Tiras to find, and maybe even Alterac to consider an attempt on.
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100 Undead Mage
12215
02/15/2013 09:41 AMPosted by Khetep
With all that being said, as far as I'm concerned the Forsaken can keep it I want Stromgarde back.

Exactly. You have Stromgarde to retake, Theramore to consider rebuilding, Kul Tiras to find, and maybe even Alterac to consider an attempt on.


You are lucky you didn't post this on the story forum. Than we would be dealing with piles and piles of facts made up by Vyrim. Now to answer your question in an rp situation that was in charecter ya I can see why humans would feel that way. Lordaeron is pretty much like Jeruslem to them. It remindes them of a golden age and has alot of history behind it and to see it inhabited by what could onlty be seen as an abomination to the light isn't something any human would look upon to fondly.

Now if we look at this from an out of charecter perspective I would have to say have to say the Alliance damn well lost Lordaeron and they need to deal with it. The only former citzens of Lordaeron that are alive are refuges that retreated to stormwind while the people who faught and died for it are suffering the curse of undeath and living there today. If the Alliance had any sense they would just stay clear of the Forsaken because you really don't want to miss with a buanch of pissed off undead people who have the most deadly bio weapon in the world and no qualms of using it.
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90 Human Rogue
10570
02/15/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Xarduss
If the Alliance had any sense they would just stay clear of the Forsaken because you really don't want to miss with a buanch of pissed off undead people who have the most deadly bio weapon in the world and no qualms of using it.

Now this I find highly debatable considering every encounter with the Forsaken has been instigated by the Forsaken and not the Alliance.
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86 Undead Mage
1320
02/15/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Xarduss
You are lucky you didn't post this on the story forum. Than we would be dealing with piles and piles of facts made up by Vyrim

So I'm not the only one that noticed that too?
The Forsaken engage on their terms...seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Look at it from their perspective. If your home was destroyed and you had the chance to take it back, wouldn't you? Claims to land are tricky things, and I think both sides have a claim. Don't be so quick to judge. if you were booted out of the Undercity you would want it back (I think). The living refugees from Lordaeron are as much Lordaeronian as you, and frankly the only reason you aren't a refugee is because either you were killed before you escaped or you were a soldier, so if you had had your way in life you would be one of the people who want to take Lordaeron back from you.

Likewise if you view yourself as Lordaeronian first and Undead second shouldn't you be fore coexistence within the kingdom? Just a few thoughts Im putting down, please dont imply a tone here.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13115
02/17/2013 12:14 AMPosted by Alyonus
Look at it from their perspective. If your home was destroyed and you had the chance to take it back, wouldn't you? Claims to land are tricky things, and I think both sides have a claim. Don't be so quick to judge. if you were booted out of the Undercity you would want it back (I think). The living refugees from Lordaeron are as much Lordaeronian as you, and frankly the only reason you aren't a refugee is because either you were killed before you escaped or you were a soldier, so if you had had your way in life you would be one of the people who want to take Lordaeron back from you.


The thing is, it's been over a decade since Lordaeron was Scourged. I don't think Anduin Wrynn was even old enough to have remembered it as anything other then what it is now. Humanity has been living and breathing Stormwind for almost half a generation at this point.

In fact, if we add up the total amount of time that Lordaeron was the "main" Human nation, then compare it to the amount of time that Stormwind has been leading the charge, it really makes one wonder why people look back on Lordaeron with such possessiveness.
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60 Blood Elf Warlock
3545
The fact is that Lordaeron was stolen from the living survivors of that once great nation.

What did the people of Stormwind do when the Orcs stole their kingdom at the end of the First War?

What did the Blood Elves do when the Scourge stole Quel'thalas from them?

What did the Darkspear Trolls do when Zalazane betrayed them and laid claim to the Echo Isles?

What did the Gnomes do when Gnomeregan fell to the Trogs and Thermaplug's treachery?

What have the Worgen been trying to do since the Forsaken invaded Gilneas?

The answer to all the above is... Take back what was stolen from them. The same is true for Lordaeron... it was stolen, first by the Scourge and then by the Forsaken. Not only that, but the Forsaken continue to prove that they are as grave a threat to everyone that the Scourge was... maybe even worse since there is no one controling them.

Just because the Forsaken have been "living" there for the last 10 years doesn't change the fact that Lordaeron belongs to the survivors. Orcs held Stormwind for years before it was liberated. Does that mean that Stormwind now rightfully belongs to the Orcs because they held it for years before humanity liberated it at the end of the Second War?
Edited by Sulumor on 2/17/2013 12:15 PM PST
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Likewise if you view yourself as Lordaeronian first and Undead second shouldn't you be fore coexistence within the kingdom? Just a few thoughts Im putting down, please dont imply a tone here.


This is a good point. If you're going to talk about having a right to Lordaeran because it was your land, why wouldn't you want to share it with people who can make that very same claim?

If you feel the Forsaken have a stronger claim than any living human, you're putting the Forsaken before Lordaeran. That makes you a traitor, not a patriot.
Edited by Boyd on 2/17/2013 1:23 PM PST
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90 Troll Warlock
12330
The Humans are no more entitled to Lordaeron than the Forest Trolls before them.

But a Human having the belief that Lordaeron belongs to the living makes more sense than believing that the land belongs to a bunch of cursed, violent, and insane walking corpses.
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The thing is, it's been over a decade since Lordaeron was Scourged. I don't think Anduin Wrynn was even old enough to have remembered it as anything other then what it is now. Humanity has been living and breathing Stormwind for almost half a generation at this point.

In fact, if we add up the total amount of time that Lordaeron was the "main" Human nation, then compare it to the amount of time that Stormwind has been leading the charge, it really makes one wonder why people look back on Lordaeron with such possessiveness.


10 years is NOT a long time at all by any stretch. By that logic Hitler was almost the rightful ruler of france, occupying it for 5 years. Again you are missing hte point that regardless of any academic claims we might make, people like thier home and noone spewing out stuff about time or who really owns it isn't realizing that if your home was taken you would want it back. Simple as that. Facts dont matter only perception.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
8280
Human: Come out of there you blasted undead! We are taking Lordaeron back for ourselves!
Forsaken a: That is adorable, stay right there, we are willing negotiate!
Human: ummmm okay?
---Forsaken b comes out with a blight cannon---
Forsaken b: Eat plague!
Human: Wait, what?
---Forsaken a and b fire blight onto the invaders killing them all instantly---
---All humans are raised as Forsaken---
Forsaken a: See! now we can share!
Human (now a forsaken): f***...
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90 Blood Elf Mage
12455
As stated earlier, upon death, one tends to lose all claim to their earthly possessions - this would include land.

However, the Forsaken went a step further thanks to Sylvanas' betrayal of Garithos at Capital City. The Forsaken now do have the claim of Lordaeron as the rite by conquest, which isn't as strong as the claim of the refugees but still stronger than that of squatters.

With the death of Garithos, and I assume most of his army, much of the living element of Lordaeron was destroyed - principally their army and the current ruler of Lordaeron - which was Garithos who would have undoubtedly placed Lordaeron under martial law and was acting as warlord of the kingdom.

So slaying the ruler, setting his army to flight and causing the citizenry to either flee or die gives the Forsaken much of Lordaeron through rite of conquest.

So yeah, the Forsaken have a strong claim.

The living Lordaeronians just have a stronger one.

As for why they want it?

Well, strategically speaking it loosens one of the two footholds the Horde has on the Eastern Kingdoms. Furthermore it cuts the Blood Elves off from immediate supply and reinforcement. Taking Lordaeron would allow for a stranglehold to be placed on Quel'Thalas by land and sea and force the Blood Elves to surrender to the Alliance and lay down arms.

The Forsaken who manage to escape, there probably only being a few after the assault of the Alliance, would have no major numbers to add to the Horde. They also would be lacking much of their plagues and concoctions limiting their use in combat severely.

So from there we now see a Horde that has an extremely minor Forsaken presence, and one that is severely less potent than it was even before the Blight.

They now lack many of their more powerful magic users, as only those Blood Elves outside Silvermoon might still continue to fight for the Horde - depending on whether or not they are contacted before that to lay down arms and return home.

We have the orcs, trolls, taurens and goblins standing against the might of the Alliance that isn't weakened by the loss of forces.

At the very least it only serves to gain Alliance dominance of the Eastern Kingdoms and puts the Horde in the precarious spot of not having forces to assault the Alliance should the latter launch an assault.
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