Why doesn't soothing mist give a fixed chi #

90 Undead Death Knight
7345
I have no idea why this ability has an RNG return on chi. Could someone with greater insight into monk abilities tell me why?

I've seen partners in arena complain because they would bust out soothing on me but sometimes, due to RNG, would get little chi back while doing it.

Am I correct that you could have a string of bad RNG and get zero chi back for entire casts of soothing? That is really a rough thing for pvp. In pve is must be hard to plan or time your chi usage with soothing.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
idk why it doesnt, but like Iw as saying to Mist yesterday, I think it should
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 10:01 AMPosted by Shammyren
idk why it doesnt, but like Iw as saying to Mist yesterday, I think it should


^^ This is one of my issues with the Jab nerf. The reason people Jab is because it's the only reliable way of generating Chi that doesn't cost and arm and a leg (and require you to have 2 other people right next to you). Soothing Mist isn't favored because Soothing Mist is RNG.
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90 Gnome Monk
9940
I think the first tick of SM should cost more chi to cast, but also give a guaranteed chi.
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90 Human Monk
10960
Here's what I would do with soothing mists...

* Increase the time between ticks to 1.5 seconds and increase the amount healed to compensate.
* Make every tick AFTER the first generate 1 Chi. So, your first Chi would always generate after 3 seconds, then again after 4.5, 6, 7.5, etc.

The idea is that just giving Chi every tick would be a bit ridiculous. Making the chi generation a result of channeling for at least a set amount of time, you'll end up with it being a decision.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12465
Does your partner know that Surging Mist always generates one Chi, and is instant on his Soothing Mist target?

If I were going to PvP (especially Arena) on my MW, I would be using the bejeezus out of Healing Sphere, and probably little else (RM/Uplift), for healing.

Riôt
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
Because if it is guaranteed to generate chi it needs to cost an amount proportional to the other abilities guaranteed to generate chi. Same thing with cjl, you would have to increase the cost to account for the healing and the chi generation.

With chi generation being random they can justify the cost per healing/damage being different and allow choices in your gameplay. Can I channel soothing and risk not getting chi or do I NEED the chi and have to jab? That is a choice... If both produce guaranteed chi then someone will do the math and come up with which one you should always do because it is just flat out better hpm and/or hps.
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90 Human Monk
10960
Can I channel soothing and risk not getting chi or do I NEED the chi and have to jab? That is a choice... If both produce guaranteed chi then someone will do the math and come up with which one you should always do because it is just flat out better hpm and/or hps.


Except Jab and Soothing Mists fill different roles so the decision would fall in line with all the other decisions out there for healers. Do I heal a single specific target for X amount and generate Y chi or do I trigger my smart heal for X amount and generate Y chi. That's a good decision.

I would agree if the choice to fill the same role came down to throughput, then it would be a bad design decision. For example, the choice between uplift and your tier30 talents favors uplift almost all the time unless you have no ReM's going.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12910
Basically what Linnelle said: its ok for Soothing Mists to be RNG because it is so efficient. Your choices are

A -

Channel Soothing Mists, and get unreliable but efficient Chi.

Or

B -

Cast Surging Mist, and get reliable but expensive Chi.

You can mix A and B. Jab is supposed to be option B for Fistweaving (fistweaving's option A is CJL).
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15 Human Mage
0
It shouldn't be RNG. We told them that in beta numerous times. It should be guaranteed with a short cooldown. And no, that wouldn't mean you'd need to increase the cost. You would just need to adjust the cooldown so that it made sense for the potential chi generation.
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63 Dwarf Priest
0
Basically what Linnelle said: its ok for Soothing Mists to be RNG because it is so efficient. Your choices are

A -

Channel Soothing Mists, and get unreliable but efficient Chi.

Or

B -

Cast Surging Mist, and get reliable but expensive Chi.

You can mix A and B. Jab is supposed to be option B for Fistweaving (fistweaving's option A is CJL).


I see what you're going for here, but I believe it's woefully misguided.

Jab is option A, B, and C for Fistweaving. If you are at melee, and Fistweaving, then you are using Jab to generate Chi. Jab + Tiger's Palm is significantly more efficient a Chi generator than CJL, and if you are Fistweaving, TP is what you use that Chi on by design. Muscle Memory'd TP is the crux of the new Fistweaving "rotation".
CJL doesn't even interact with the rest of the kit, it's for if you need ranged damage as a healer.

Saying we should view Surging Mists as our "reliable Chi generator" is also a little off. It is by definition our "emergency burst heal", and that is what the mana cost is so high for. The additional Chi it gives is just because if it didn't give Chi, and you SM, and you still need to heavy heal, the only real option is to endlessly throw your mana away spamming SM. It's poor design to expect us to use a high healing single target move just to generate Chi, when most of the mana cost associated with that spell is due to its high single target healing (which if we're trying to gather Chi to respond to heavy AoE damage will largely go to waste)... hence why I do not think that is Blizz's intent.

Lastly, RNG in healing is just not fun design. Monks suffer from more RNG (and things out of our control) than every healer combined within our kit. The fact that it is so heavily present in our "efficient, go to slow heal" which is supposed to form the very basis of our healing tools is even worse.
Edited by Urteil on 2/15/2013 5:18 PM PST
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90 Human Monk
7955
Cjl seems more reliable and requires a ton less mana, am I doing it wrong by filling my free time with cjl dpsing? It heals fairly well at my level.
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63 Dwarf Priest
0
02/15/2013 05:17 PMPosted by Sydell
Cjl seems more reliable and requires a ton less mana, am I doing it wrong by filling my free time with cjl dpsing? It heals fairly well at my level.


CJL will theoretically generate one Chi every ~14.5k mana. Jab will generate one Chi instantly for 9k mana. On average, CJL is less efficient on live. After 5.2 it will be less efficient when used for Fistweaving. CJL can generate Chi much faster or slower than what I said, it's unreliable... but that's not as big an issue when you're only seeking to do damage.

Damage-wise it does less, because you are not auto-attacking while you channel CJL. If you have SZ up (as you should) it will result in less overall Eminence healing for the duration as well.

Honestly CJL has no real place in a raiding Mistweaver or Fistweaver rotation outside of providing ranged damage when melee can't be done.

At your level, I'm unsure. Go with whatever is fun for you.
Edited by Urteil on 2/15/2013 5:23 PM PST
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90 Human Monk
7955
All I see about MW is qq and demanding fixes. I understand its rng based but if it's as bad as people are saying there's really no point in leveling further. I find mw the funnest spec in the game right now, but I do want to raid when I reach max level.

If I can't be competitive (I don't know why I wouldn't, with ReM and EvM I can do some pretty good healing right now, but I'm only 70 so it's fairly cheap) I'm just going to focus on my 50 priest. Ill end up finding a spot much faster than as a 'broken' class.

So I guess my main question is, with good game play, can I be competitive or should I just reroll from an amazing spec?

Also on a side note, I can't stand fist weaving, am I gimping myself by staying at range or does it not matter (I mean 10-20% difference in healing output)
Edited by Sydell on 2/15/2013 5:34 PM PST
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63 Dwarf Priest
0
All I see about MW is qq and demanding fixes. I understand its rng based but if it's as bad as people are saying there's really no point in leveling further. I find mw the funnest spec in the game right now, but I do want to raid when I reach max level.

If I can't be competitive (I don't know why I wouldn't, with ReM and EvM I can do some pretty good healing right now, but I'm only 70 so it's fairly cheap) I'm just going to focus on my 50 priest. Ill end up finding a spot much faster than as a 'broken' class.

So I guess my main question is, with good game play, can I be competitive or should I just reroll from an amazing spec?

Also on a side note, I can't stand fist weaving, am I gimping myself by staying at range or does it not matter (I mean 10-20% difference in healing output)


You can be very competitive in throughput, but we provide less in terms of raid cooldowns compared to other healers.

If you don't like fistweaving, you're only REALLY gimping yourself on a couple of T14 fights... though you also won't be healing as effectively as you could be in every fight. However, after 5.2, when Fistweaving and ranged healing will be more distinctively separated, you will probably not have to Fistweave if you don't want to.

I'd say you'd have to try it out in a raid to see if you'd like it.

Most of the "QQ" is stemming from upcoming changes that many feel are taking options and control away from a spec that wasn't exactly bursting with them to begin with.
Edited by Urteil on 2/15/2013 5:39 PM PST
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90 Human Monk
7955
It's almost definitely my level, but fist weaving isn't enough to keep the tank up on anything but boss fights (at 70 bosses are paper bags) and on trash tanks can be dead before I finish rolling into melee.

I'm liking the 5.2 notes, really sad that chi wave damage and healing have been nerfed but now that it's free it opens up a lot more usage of EvM and uplift. Don't think my personal mana tea stacks will slow down, they might even go up, but overhealing is going to be bigger than it is now.

I guess I'll have to read up a little more on fist weaving but if it's like you said and 5.2 will separate those two more and it won't be necessary, I think ill love my monk for a while yet.

It's just so much more fun, and the burst healing is just amazing.
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90 Human Monk
7955
Sorry for derailing the thread.

OT, I'm finding the rng of soothing mist slightly clunky, perhaps they could shift spirit or mastery to give it slightly more chance to proc, but add in DR to prevent stacking?

I can't talk about max level healing but I seem to either be wasting chi sitting on 5 or be scrambling trying to save a tank without EvM. It can get tight.
Edited by Sydell on 2/15/2013 5:51 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
I have no idea why this ability has an RNG return on chi. Could someone with greater insight into monk abilities tell me why?

I've seen partners in arena complain because they would bust out soothing on me but sometimes, due to RNG, would get little chi back while doing it.

Am I correct that you could have a string of bad RNG and get zero chi back for entire casts of soothing? That is really a rough thing for pvp. In pve is must be hard to plan or time your chi usage with soothing.

RNG adds depth.

/thread
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90 Pandaren Monk
14710
RNG adds annoyance and fluctuations which we dont need as a healing class..

Getting an extra stack of mana tea from a crit is RNG and ok.

Randomly getting chi we NEED to heal is RNG and NOT ok.

How can you balance a spell on the fact that it "could" give you 4 chi or could give you 0 chi?
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
RNG adds annoyance and fluctuations which we dont need as a healing class..

Getting an extra stack of mana tea from a crit is RNG and ok.

Randomly getting chi we NEED to heal is RNG and NOT ok.

How can you balance a spell on the fact that it "could" give you 4 chi or could give you 0 chi?


If you NEED chi you jab/expel harm/rm/surging depending on the situation, what's on cooldown, etc. If you have time to gather chi before the %^&* hits the fan and want to do some healing and maybe get chi you use soothing or if you want to add some damage and mana isn't a big issue you use cjl. RNG is RNG, there is no ok/not ok about it, it's just there and you work around it using the tools you have. It would be different if there were no tools that you could use to get around the RNG chi generation of soothing/cjl but there are such tools.

As to how you balance it? Easily, you balance it much more around the healing/damage it does than whether it is generating chi. It's not like Blizz has some formula somewhere that says each point of healing costs x mana for single target slow, y for single target fast, z for multi-target, etc, etc. They start with numbers and iterate around how things are being used compared to how they want them used, output vs mana state, and probably a number of other factors..
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