Mistweaver DIrection, Are we lost?

90 Pandaren Monk
11075
I actually don't mind them trying to separate both styles of healing available to the class but I'm not sure that just increasing the possible chi generation from soothing mist is going to be enough. Seeing as we've been forced into a jab jab uplift rotation to deal deal with heavy aoe healing, moving that towards a spell with slower chi generation will lower the effectiveness of uplift healing by quite a bit. Since this seems most likely to be the case I think it would be wise to increase the throughput of uplift a little bit to compensate for making it less spammable.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
Guys, I agree with you. It pisses me off that Jab is the only reliable method of Chi generation Monks have, but Blizzard has made it very clear that they don't intend to change it.
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90 Human Monk
17840
I don't think that the "put up or give up" mentality applies to the spec.

I gave up on a 3 year old boomkin for MoP because I hate(d) Eclipse. It's a god-awful mechanic but I eventually realized it's a design choice; not liking it was my problem, not theirs, so I stopped trying to change it and changed classes.

Splitting MW healing styles with the grace of a vyrkul axe to the face and solving a problem by making a bigger one is a mistake. I believe feedback may make a difference, specially for a new spec that's constantly changing.
Edited by Litchi on 2/23/2013 7:56 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
11615
I already feel more useful on my alt paladin that is 20 ilvls below and don't have nearly the experience. It's just silly that they feel they need to destroy the spec out of peer philosophical basis.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11615
I really dont know why healers are having to use secondary resources for healing anyway. Why was this even considered? I can understand melee dps playing a rogue and druid before but healers?

Sure it adds a dynamic to healing or even classes but the RNG factor is very disappointing not to mention limiting and frustrating at times.


Except arguably the most consistent and best model for a healer uses a secondary resource. Paladins outside of DS have never been disc priest op nor have they ever been resto druid bad. Their healing always feels smooth and well integrated. The hand spells add some variety and utility.
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One big difference is that monks can't spam either SurMist or EnvMist. This most basic part of their toolkit is tied up in a resource that has to constantly be cycling (and I think it's clear that their toolkit is effectively still being developed). For paladins, they have their basic trinity being spammable, and then their HoPo heals on top of that.

I disagree about Soothing Mist, by the way. If you look at those numbers, 90% of the time you'll be getting a Chi every 3 seconds or so. The RNG doesn't seem like a dealbreaker to me.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
15835

I disagree about Soothing Mist, by the way. If you look at those numbers, 90% of the time you'll be getting a Chi every 3 seconds or so. The RNG doesn't seem like a dealbreaker to me.


Any RNG is a dealbreaker when it matters. You can currently generate Chi more than once every 3 seconds. If your tank is going to die, you need to heal the tank. You can't just 'wait' 6 seconds to get enough Chi so you can throw up an enveloping mist.

Consider it for your class: Your rejuvenation has a cooldown ranging from 1-8 seconds. Usually, it's 3. But sometimes, it'll be 1. Sometimes it'll be 8. What if it happens to be 8 and someone without rejuv needs a swiftmend ASAP or they'll die? Your rejuv is on cd so you're forced to let them die or be inefficient (something you can't afford during progression).

RNG on healers is !@#$ty design.. It doesn't matter if "most of the time" you'll be okay. No progression guild is going to want to bring a monk to 10man if they don't have 100% reliable healing. Since I know someone is going to say it, "all healers have crit and crit is RNG"... true, but you don't plan your healing around crits. You plan around healing someone for what it would normally heal for and not bank on something critting. Similarly, you don't plan on healing someone assuming you'll get a string of bad luck and have to wait 5 seconds to generate that 2nd Chi so you can uplift. That's why no one wants to use soothing mist for chi gen.
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If you need to heal THAT quickly, you can use Surging Mist. Resto druids actually have a similar mechanic when the tank needs healing and you don't have a Clearcasting proc. You can wait, holding out for a CC proc (which you can reasonably expect within a few seconds) or you can spend the mana to heal if its actually urgent.

I just don't think it's as big a deal as you think. Tanks hate RNG even more than healers (try having the whole raid depend on you dodging or critting) but you find ways of adjusting. I completely agree that the chi generation of SoM on live is not workable at all, which is why it's changing.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13265
One big difference is that monks can't spam either SurMist or EnvMist. This most basic part of their toolkit is tied up in a resource that has to constantly be cycling (and I think it's clear that their toolkit is effectively still being developed). For paladins, they have their basic trinity being spammable, and then their HoPo heals on top of that.

I disagree about Soothing Mist, by the way. If you look at those numbers, 90% of the time you'll be getting a Chi every 3 seconds or so. The RNG doesn't seem like a dealbreaker to me.


This seems like one of those situations where it probably won't matter for most, but in the case of a progression oriented fight, there is the real danger of RNG playing against a raid. That 10% chance will matter, and that's not accounting for ReM RNG. RNG on top of RNG with no discernible upside to account for it. Why would a progression guild bother?

And for myself, I'll just say that Monk fun has been getting progressively worse from patch to patch. 5.0 nerfs were justified, but ruining various styles of viable gameplay from 5.1 while they are NOT OP by any reasonable metric in 10s, 25s, or PvP just to meet some developer "vision" that hasn't even been fully fleshed out has made my formerly fun choice a chore, and it's the only real enjoyment I've been having since launch. Blizzard has managed to make the class progressively worse in almost every possible way since then.

I figured I'd at least be able to enjoy Monk for one expansion. Maybe I was wrong? I don't necessarily mind relearning a class, but I don't want to be unhappy while doing it.
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90 Troll Priest
12105
I feel MW monks and disc priests are in the same boat. By that I mean, Blizz created some interesting mechanics for a spec that looked great on paper. But, when it went to live practice, some wild and crazy things started happening that Blizz never considered and whoops, they have no idea how to address these wild and crazy things without completely destroying this interesting mechanic they thought was so cool way back when. So now, they are poking around in the dark, randomly swinging their arms, trying to balance this interesting mechanic without breaking it. And, they are sucking the fun out of MW monks and disc priests in the process...
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90 Blood Elf Priest
15835
If you need to heal THAT quickly, you can use Surging Mist. Resto druids actually have a similar mechanic when the tank needs healing and you don't have a Clearcasting proc. You can wait, holding out for a CC proc (which you can reasonably expect within a few seconds) or you can spend the mana to heal if its actually urgent.

I just don't think it's as big a deal as you think. Tanks hate RNG even more than healers (try having the whole raid depend on you dodging or critting) but you find ways of adjusting. I completely agree that the chi generation of SoM on live is not workable at all, which is why it's changing.


It's not as simple as "if you need to heal fast, be inefficient". The thing is, you can play at your class's skill cap and still be held back by chi RNG. The difference between monks and resto druids in this example is that druids can actually heal properly at all times - there is minimal RNG factored in.

For normal modes, I honestly don't think it matters what class you bring. But if you're looking to be a US/World top 50 guild, then you need to be min/maxing... that includes the classes.

If Paragon was to bring a monk and a situation arose (which undoubtedly it will, even if getting 1 chi/8 seconds is a 1% chance) where the monk wasn't able to heal properly due to RNG constraints, then that's one attempt down the drain. And it has nothing to do with learning the fight. It's a pure wipe to things out of their control. I don't see a conversation like "sorry, I went oom because I tried to get chi to heal you but soothing mist didn't give me enough in time... so I had to spam surging mist on you" going over well. At least, not in a progression guild.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13265
02/23/2013 11:57 PMPosted by Vear
I feel MW monks and disc priests are in the same boat. By that I mean, Blizz created some interesting mechanics for a spec that looked great on paper. But, when it went to live practice, some wild and crazy things started happening that Blizz never considered and whoops, they have no idea how to address these wild and crazy things without completely destroying this interesting mechanic they thought was so cool way back when. So now, they are poking around in the dark, randomly swinging their arms, trying to balance this interesting mechanic without breaking it. And, they are sucking the fun out of MW monks and disc priests in the process...


Well, see, I usually don't mind nerfs if I can see a reason why. But what has been so "wild and crazy" about Monks in 5.1?
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90 Blood Elf Monk
14520
Raid Leader: "Alright, the tank died, but he was low for like six seconds, why didn't you put an EnvM on him Astråios?"
Me: "Oh well I nearly oom and channeling SoM to generate chi for the past seven seconds but didn't get any."


Perfectly put.
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90 Pandaren Monk
5585
Raid Leader: "Alright, the tank died, but he was low for like six seconds, why didn't you put an EnvM on him Astråios?"
Me: "Oh well I nearly oom and channeling SoM to generate chi for the past seven seconds but didn't get any."


Perfectly put.


There's your problem right there. You were OOM so you were doing something wrong....

I can honestly say I'm confortable with my monk now and mana has NEVER been an issue. Infact I've never used a potion or had to drink between fights in months. Maybe in this situation a liberal application of mana tea would help?
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
So was the issue that Jab/Jab/Uplift was too efficient compared to other healers AoE even though it didn't translate into meter dominance or that Blizzard didn't want all Mistweavers to feel the only way to heal was in melee with Jab?

If it's the second reason then Crackling Jade Lightning and Soothing Mist should both generate one Chi per tic with Soothing used for Tank or spot healing and CJL used for smart Eminence healing.

Revert the Jab mana increases as well as the Chi cost changes from t30 and now both styles have consistent ways to generate Chi and multiple ways to dump said Chi. You know...a fun way to play.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
There's your problem right there. You were OOM so you were doing something wrong....

I can honestly say I'm confortable with my monk now and mana has NEVER been an issue. Infact I've never used a potion or had to drink between fights in months. Maybe in this situation a liberal application of mana tea would help?


I heartily dislike people that just randomly pull the armory card. However, there are times when it is warranted.

Mana has never been an issue for you because you have 0 experience at difficult content on your monk. 4/16 normal modes means you are just starting to reach any of the content that should even remotely challenge your mana bar and your gear level is higher than it should be for that progression level. While I agree that the 5.1 mana state is not as doom and gloom as some on the forum would have you believe, there are fights where OOM is a very real possibility. I can certainly see the scenario described playing out over the course of a 12 minute type fight. Having to surge for chi early due to bad rng can certainly bite you in the butt later, especially if it happens several times.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11615
Here is a fun experience I had on ptr LFR.

Open the fight with jab->tp. Unfortunately the fight was really laggy since lust and everything was going on. I pop out of the lag an realize I have 4 chi and I'm down a quarter of my mana bar. I know that's bad play on my part but still that's crazy that 1 spell that does nothing for you but generate a resource can be so devastating.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13265
So was the issue that Jab/Jab/Uplift was too efficient compared to other healers AoE even though it didn't translate into meter dominance or that Blizzard didn't want all Mistweavers to feel the only way to heal was in melee with Jab?

If it's the second reason then Crackling Jade Lightning and Soothing Mist should both generate one Chi per tic with Soothing used for Tank or spot healing and CJL used for smart Eminence healing.

Revert the Jab mana increases as well as the Chi cost changes from t30 and now both styles have consistent ways to generate Chi and multiple ways to dump said Chi. You know...a fun way to play.


I can't tell beyond the "discourage use of JabxJab Uplift" statement without more details, but I think it is the second point. There's several people in the Monk forums right now "happy that "fistweaving" is no longer mandatory". Make of that what you will (personally, I was fairly annoyed).

Besides the Monk ranged kit being as lackluster as ever (which should be apparent to anyone with another healer at 85+), Muscle Memory is just poorly implemented. It seems like we might be stuck at Range using SM and ignoring Fistweaving altogether, and a significant portion of our kit with it. In that case, I don't see why one would not just want to play another healer. Every other healer has a more useful and versatile ranged kit (and it seems like Priest still has more DPS while still healing). No one is going to want to do all the extra work required for "Fistweaving", especially when it's not an effective playstyle for any meaningful content.
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90 Troll Priest
12105
02/24/2013 01:12 AMPosted by Thaimaishu
I feel MW monks and disc priests are in the same boat. By that I mean, Blizz created some interesting mechanics for a spec that looked great on paper. But, when it went to live practice, some wild and crazy things started happening that Blizz never considered and whoops, they have no idea how to address these wild and crazy things without completely destroying this interesting mechanic they thought was so cool way back when. So now, they are poking around in the dark, randomly swinging their arms, trying to balance this interesting mechanic without breaking it. And, they are sucking the fun out of MW monks and disc priests in the process...


Well, see, I usually don't mind nerfs if I can see a reason why. But what has been so "wild and crazy" about Monks in 5.1?


Not saying I agree with Blizz, or even understand why they choose these specific changes. I merely see the similarities between disc and MW monk mechanics: 1. being interesting and unique and 2. doing something Blizz didn't initially intend. and finally 3. Blizz struggle to "fix" whatever they see is wrong, which will end up sucking the interesting/unique aspect out of the mechanic.

Juggling chainsaws sounds like a real neat show, until you have to make corrections mid-preformance, then things turn a bit scary...
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