Overhealing Overlooked

90 Gnome Priest
9880

This kind of scenario only happens when people are trying to deliberately snipe others to squeeze in some healing, since there's probably nothing to do from either a) overgearing the content, b) excelling at the fight due to experience, or c) combination of both.


Not the case. This also happens when a Tank freaks out over sudden heavy tank damage, blows his heal, when a healer is half way through a GHeal Cast. Is OH 100% avoidable? Nope. Is it bad? Only when mana comes into play. Is it something that should be considered when trying to become a more efficient healer? Of course!



For example, when doing the alt raid and doing heroic spine, we had a holy priest that was barely doing any healing while also going OOM. I went through skada to see what spells he was using, and watched him during one of our attempts while the damage was high, and realized he was just using the incorrect spells for the damage. OH did not tell me this, looking deeper into the issue is what did.


It might not tell you in that specific situation, but it very well does in others. As a matter of fact, OH numbers (by spell) could potentially save you from having to give some huge explanation as to how you can help fix spell selection errors, simply by telling you exactly which ones (particularly medium to large heals. Not so much HoT's) are being used incorrectly, and how much mana was wasted, using them. If anything, it could make your spell selection explanation easier.

Quick, simple, respectable answers that could point a Healer in the right direction, so that they may work on ridding themselves of bad habits.

If you're not trying to help a healer, of course, the OH stat is a complete waste of time.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
My personal benchmark was 20% overall. I see people saying that OH is *irrelevant*...if your OH is 40%, I truly can't fathom how you can consider almost half of all of your healing being worthless as *irrelevant.*

In 25m, your raid would likely not have noticed if you didn't do anything at all. Think about that, just for a minute, and decide whether or not that is *relevant.*

If you're talking 40% on WoL...well, that pretty much never happens unless you're overgearing content and have too many healers. And you wouldn't have WoL information in a 5m, which is apparently what this thread is about.

If you're talking 40% on Recount/Skada, the first thing you need to do is convert that into a real %overhealing measure. Recount/Skada use a funky formula: the number they report as %overhealing is overheal / effective healing, not overheal / total healing. You'll need to correct that manually using this formula:

Real %overhealing = Recount %overhealing / (1 + Recount %overhealing)

So if you're seeing 40%, the real number is 28%. Which still isn't great, but if you're not a paladin, it's not terrible. Certainly not almost half.

As for whether or not your raid would have noticed, that depends mostly on your effective healing and a little bit on how/when it was delivered. You don't even need to look at the overhealing tab to check that.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
I feel this discussion is entirely pointless. The OP comment was about healers under lvl 90 running out of mana in 5-man dungeons. That's going to happen. That's part of learning their class. Before lvl 80 it often doesn't matter what spell they use to heal. Then it slowly starts to matter. Each lvl the scaling changes. The cost and effectiveness of spells can significantly change by jumping one lvl. They'll learn as they go. 5-mans is the place to learn. It's not like they can go practice healing against a target dummy. If you don't want to deal with players learning how to play their class, then stay out of dungeons.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
Not the case. This also happens when a Tank freaks out over sudden heavy tank damage, blows his heal, when a healer is half way through a GHeal Cast. Is OH 100% avoidable? Nope. Is it bad? Only when mana comes into play. Is it something that should be considered when trying to become a more efficient healer? Of course!

You can make as many situations up as you want, but my overall point was that the "bad" overhealing you're talking about doesn't typically happen outside of the 2 scenarios I listed, unless said healer is new-- and shouldn't even be in a raid to begin with.

It might not tell you in that specific situation, but it very well does in others. As a matter of fact, OH numbers (by spell) could potentially save you from having to give some huge explanation as to how you can help fix spell selection errors, simply by telling you exactly which ones (particularly medium to large heals. Not so much HoT's) are being used incorrectly, and how much mana was wasted, using them. If anything, it could make your spell selection explanation easier

This game is too self-explanatory to even bother with looking at OH to see what someone's doing incorrectly. Looking at spell usage, watching what the player is doing and when, tells me more than anything OH could tell me. OH does not tell me about damage patterns and how it can favor certain spells. Thing is, you could pretty much look at just the general skada/recount breakdown of spells and get more of a clue of how a healer is doing. Whereas with OH, you aren't really understanding what the data is showing you, and you have to dig deeper and look into spell usage anyway.

So would I rather take 1 step or 2 to receive the same results?
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90 Gnome Priest
9880
I feel this discussion is entirely pointless. The OP comment was about healers under lvl 90 running out of mana in 5-man dungeons. That's going to happen. That's part of learning their class. Before lvl 80 it often doesn't matter what spell they use to heal. Then it slowly starts to matter. Each lvl the scaling changes. The cost and effectiveness of spells can significantly change by jumping one lvl. They'll learn as they go. 5-mans is the place to learn. It's not like they can go practice healing against a target dummy.


No. Im talking about the transition between spam healing, and healing efficiently, when you have to. Right now, my opinion, the level range is between 86, and 90. 86 is not low. I realize that, but in this specific conversation, I'm suggesting "lower" meaning the levels between 90, and 86.

The reason why I picked those levels, because if you quit during Cata, and came back in MoP(assuming you did not re-roll a new toon) your first ding is 86. This is where I, personally, noticed it, as a healer.

You're just not being realistic. Up and coming healers breaking through the transition of mashing heal buttons, to a more successful, mana efficient healing style.


If you don't want to deal with players learning how to play their class, then stay out of dungeons.


This whole GD thread is revolved around helping healers. How can you honestly reply with such ignorance, after reading 4 pages of redundant "help new healers running OOM" comments? It's not me who has the problem with people learning their classes. I wouldnt be here, wasting time, arguing with 1337s like you, if that was the case. I have yet to initiate a kick for anything else other than DC, or someone blatantly being a Jack Hole. That being said, in reality, 5 man 90 dungeons, Heroics, and LFR are terrible places to practice, (esp as a healer) without being flamed, or kicked.
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90 Gnome Priest
9880

This game is too self-explanatory to even bother with looking at OH to see what someone's doing incorrectly.


If that's the case, every person playing WoW would have full Raid gear, and we wouldnt even be talking. I believe this is just flat out Bs. No offense.


Looking at spell usage, watching what the player is doing and when, tells me more than anything OH could tell me.


Maybe not everyone feels they have enough time to micro manage other party member's spells during a fight. I know I don't. It's why I pay attention to the numbers, during, and after a fight. I think that's the reason they made damage meters.


OH does not tell me about damage patterns and how it can favor certain spells. Thing is, you could pretty much look at just the general skada/recount breakdown of spells and get more of a clue of how a healer is doing. Whereas with OH, you aren't really understanding what the data is showing you, and you have to dig deeper and look into spell usage anyway.

I disagree. an OH stat could potentially tell you exactly where a "Mana Leak" may be. Sometimes it's not so complicated that you need to strategize a healer's entire rotation. Maybe he just doesn't know the fight as well as you. You don't need OH to tell you anything more than it already does.


So would I rather take 1 step or 2 to receive the same results?


If you've played this game long enough, nothing surprises you. How are you to assume your 1 step is a fix all? (i.e. Miss Targeting, poor party communication)
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
Please just never post again if the only replies you want to read are "+1 to OP".
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90 Gnome Priest
9880
I'm sorry, I just cant take someone who flat out says "OH is irrelevant", when discussing mana issues, seriously.

Good luck.
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90 Troll Priest
12105
02/25/2013 03:32 PMPosted by Mahourai
Please just never post again if the only replies you want to read are "+1 to OP".
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
Im talking about the transition between spam healing, and healing efficiently, when you have to. Right now, my opinion, the level range is between 86, and 90. 86 is not low. I realize that, but in this specific conversation, I'm suggesting "lower" meaning the levels between 90, and 86.

The reason why I picked those levels, because if you quit during Cata, and came back in MoP(assuming you did not re-roll a new toon) your first ding is 86. This is where I, personally, noticed it, as a healer.

A player that healed lvl 85 in Cata already knows the healing environment even if they decide to roll a different class. Someone that is new to the game or only played prior to Cata would have to learn healing triage. The healing model for MoP is nearly the same as Cata. The problem most have healing from 85 to 90 is that their gear doesn't keep up with the increased health pools, damage and mana costs. They can cast all the correct spells for the situation, but if their gear is lacking in either intellect or spirit they'll struggle. They get over that obstacle by getting gear from quests, crafting, BoE's or dungeons. That's how the game is designed. New content requires new gear.

02/25/2013 02:22 PMPosted by Gnomocaine
This whole GD thread is revolved around helping healers. How can you honestly reply with such ignorance, after reading 4 pages of redundant "help new healers running OOM" comments? It's not me who has the problem with people learning their classes. I wouldnt be here, wasting time, arguing with 1337s like you, if that was the case. I have yet to initiate a kick for anything else other than DC, or someone blatantly being a Jack Hole. That being said, in reality, 5 man 90 dungeons, Heroics, and LFR are terrible places to practice, (esp as a healer) without being flamed, or kicked.

This thread revolves around you and others that know the game well discussing healing. New players rarely check the forums. When a new player makes a thread asking a specific question I'm frequently one of the people that help get them an answer. I'm not acting elite. I'm saying let the players learn by doing and help when they ask. Acting elite is preaching about what other players are doing wrong either in forums or in instance.

If you really want to help, write a guide here on the forum and request a Sticky or write an article at wowpedia. These type of threads get much too long for someone to maintain interest while reading and are eventually pushed off the first page. Once off the first page a thread is nearly forgotten.

I think LFR is an ideal place to practice healing strategies or learn a spec since Blizzard puts too many healers in the raid. A healer can do nothing but pick their nose and the other healers can easily carry the raid. It's not uncommon for someone to queue as healer, but use the dps spec and mostly cast damage just so they have something to do. The problem is LFR requires a certain gear lvl and is only open to 90's. That means dungeons are where people learn, even if some players feel they need to lecture or kick someone they think is playing horribly.
Edited by Mitimem on 2/25/2013 4:36 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
7205
I'd say the biggest problem in the group for which you're speaking is being afraid to use mana cd's. I think many people wait until they're at or near oom to use them but their timers are short enough to use frequently. On my priest, I use mindbender (1 min) nearly on cooldown. On this guy, I usually get in 2 mana tides (3 min) per fight. I usaully aim to blow my first cd around 75-80% mana.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
I'm sorry, I just cant take someone who flat out says "OH is irrelevant", when discussing mana issues, seriously.

Good luck.

I'd say more like... OH doesn't mean much and there are better ways to measure how a healer is doing.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
Which by the way is what I was saying, obviously.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
I'm sorry, I just cant take someone who flat out says "OH is irrelevant", when discussing mana issues, seriously.

Good luck.

I'd say more like... OH doesn't mean much and there are better ways to measure how a healer is doing.

all resto druids and mistweavers are bad amirite?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380

I'd say more like... OH doesn't mean much and there are better ways to measure how a healer is doing.

all resto druids and mistweavers are bad amirite?

yep, and all paladins and disc priests are super duper awesomesauce.
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90 Gnome Priest
9880
02/25/2013 03:32 PMPosted by Mahourai
Please just never post again if the only replies you want to read are "+1 to OP".

What I want? Let's start by staying on topic. You've continuously taken the subject out of context, by bringing up scenarios that have nothing to do with why we're even discussing OH in the first place. You refuse to accept OH being a problem when mana is an issue. I'm ok with that. I've given the thread a few scenarios where spell selection, reaction time, and triage have little or nothing to do with why a healer might be going OOM. This is the only rebuttal I got.


devils advocate or not, the only thing we can do to try to help those challenged players is hope they can at least observe their ui accurately.


Cop out reply.

Does spell selection, reaction time, lack of dungeon knowledge, and triage account for most mana issues? You bet. I never said otherwise.
Would OH be an issue if said healer has targeting issues, communication problems with the group, or connectivity issues (lag) during an encounter? You bet.
Does one happen more than the other? Yes.
Does it make the latter of the two any less of a problem? No.
Is blatant (non HoT)OH an issue, if the healer is going OOM, regardless of the cause? Yes.

02/25/2013 08:04 PMPosted by Mahourai
Which by the way is what I was saying, obviously.


No. You were saying this.



Overhealing is suuuuuper irrelevant at endgame.



I'd say more like... OH doesn't mean much and there are better ways to measure how a healer is doing.


That's great, but we're not measuring. This thread isn't about measuring a healer. The alleged "healer" was measured when he prematurely went OOM. We're not talking about ANYTHING outside of that. We're trying to fix an OOM issue, directly, or indirectly involving OH.

If we're going to keep beating a dead horse, at least keep it in context, with solid rebuttals to the subject, if you have any, please. It's pointless to continue if everyone keeps bringing up situations that make this entire thread, and even OH a big fat non factor.
Edited by Gnomocaine on 2/25/2013 10:32 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
8710
02/24/2013 03:10 PMPosted by Sensations


Overhealing is suuuuuper irrelevant at endgame.


I am curious how much you know about overhealing before you make that statement. What does overhealing show and why does that make it irrelevant?


Play a resto Druid. You take overhealing and throw it out the window. It doesnt matter one bit unless we're talking direct heals.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
That's great, but we're not measuring. This thread isn't about measuring a healer. The alleged "healer" was measured when he prematurely went OOM. We're not talking about ANYTHING outside of that. We're trying to fix an OOM issue, directly, or indirectly involving OH.

When someone goes OOM out of nowhere (and I'm currently healing with someone that does this in our altraid), I don't go straight to OH and look at what they're doing, I look at what they're casting. Because if they are incorrectly using their spells, it'll answer everything.

OH meters and all information that it provides does not give as much worthwhile data in comparison to other means of understanding what a healer is doing to go OOM. IE: spell breakdowns/spell usage.

That is not to say OH has no place, but it just shouldn't be held to the same standard or take precedence over other means of coming to a conclusion on how good/bad someone is being with their mana. Basically, you're putting too much reliance into this source when it's not even giving you everything you need to know.
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90 Gnome Priest
9880


I am curious how much you know about overhealing before you make that statement. What does overhealing show and why does that make it irrelevant?


Play a resto Druid. You take overhealing and throw it out the window. It doesnt matter one bit unless we're talking direct heals.


Agreed. I was talking about OH with direct heals. This entire time.

02/25/2013 10:37 PMPosted by Fleurs
When someone goes OOM out of nowhere (and I'm currently healing with someone that does this in our altraid), I don't go straight to OH and look at what they're doing, I look at what they're casting. Because if they are incorrectly using their spells, it'll answer everything.


I never suggested going straight to OH. I only suggested that in my opinion, sometimes its overlooked. I understand why now. There are alot of people who dont believe in it. On the other hand, there are quite alot of great players who still believe in healing as efficiently as possible, and will flame you for doing it, even IF you progress through dungeon, heroic, or raid, without dying.


OH meters and all information that it provides does not give as much worthwhile data in comparison to other means of understanding what a healer is doing to go OOM. IE: spell breakdowns/spell usage.


Except when the OOM issue directly relates to overhealing.


That is not to say OH has no place, but it just shouldn't be held to the same standard or take precedence over other means of to a conclusion on how good/bad someone is being with their mana. Basically, you're putting too much reliance into this source when it's not even giving you everything you need to know.


I agree, but to a group, or guild, of meter maids, they wont hear that. At all. You had mana. Three hundred thousand tiny pieces of little blue goo. It did not last you the fight. Everyone died, and the OH meter has numbers on it, with your name, and spells....assuming the fight went relatively normal for all other members, how can you argue anything in your defense at that point?
Edited by Gnomocaine on 2/25/2013 11:07 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/25/2013 11:00 PMPosted by Gnomocaine
I agree, but to a group, or guild, of meter maids, they wont hear that. At all. You had mana. Three hundred thousand tiny pieces of little blue goo. It did not last you the fight. Everyone died, and the OH meter has numbers on it, with your name, and spells....assuming the fight went relatively normal for all other members, how can you argue anything in your defense at that point?

What if the person was DPSing the whole time? OH wouldn't tell you that. Again.. Spell selection.

You're just flinging out 1-type of scenario where OH has a semblence of meaning, when in reality, this kind of thing rarely happens. Because in order to even meet the scenario requirements you're referring to would mean someone is literally not using their most efficient heals on the correct people at the right times. Literally spamming FH on a hunter's pet.

In the grand scheme of things, this doesn't happen anymore because OH happens so often and no one really loses anything out of it. It's just how healers are now.
Edited by Fleurs on 2/26/2013 12:04 AM PST
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