PvP is Fine.

90 Undead Rogue
8475
02/24/2013 05:23 PMPosted by Toskosa
whya re you comparing pve and pvp? there not related so stahp.


I swear you see PVP and PVE next to each other and you stop reading.

The comparison was made for gear progressions sake.
Argument ONE:
1. When you earn your gear, you should be able to use it how you please.

-No, you can't. You specifically can't when it comes to "Competitive" rewards. I'd make the challenge mode REFERENCE again, but you wont read it.

Argument TWO:
2. Why is gear progression from a PVE standpoint so much more balanced than PVP?

-Because its broken up into gear brackets. Similarly How PVP is divided into level brackets while reaching 90.
-Unfortunately upon hitting 90, all pvp restrictions are set loose and you get threads like this one here.

-When I ding 90 from a PVE standpoint, I have to queue regs til my ilvl is high enough for a heroic, then heroic for LFR, LFR for normal, normal to heroic.

and if you read anything, read this:
From a PVP standpoint, upon reach cap, theres absolutely nothing baring BOTH sides of the gear spectrum from interacting with each other
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90 Undead Rogue
8475
You listed 6 different forms of "Knowing" a fight.

You did not once tell me how exactly do you "outplay" an NPC.


Then you're ignoring what I implied. An NPC does set actions it's programmed to do. The raid is suppose to know how to take it out.

You're comparing that to an actual player, who can think and plan what to do against another.

I think that explains enough.


Then move on because you're obviously not comprehending the arguement.
No, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know an NPC and a player are different. Shocker.
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You're the one who suggested it's possible to "outplay" an NPC, which leads me to think your outlook on the two may me obscured.
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But, for the (5th?) time now, The point is you wouldnt want to be in a regular dungeon, reach the last boss only to find out its a heroic raid boss with 544,000,000 health.
And you most certainly wouldnt hit him, be one shotted and then brag about how "WE GAVE HIM A TOUGH TIME THOUGH GUIZE"
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Just like I personally wouldnt want to level up an alt, queue for a random bg, and right before the lava cart caps some T2 2/2 warrior looks at me funny and I drop dead.
"BUT I GAVE HIM A TOUGH TIME BRO. HE TOTALLY DIDNT KNOW WHAT TO DO IN THOSE THREE SECONDS LONGER HE HAD TO TAKE TO KILL ME"
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But that's just my personal opinion, and thats all it ever was. If you enjoy it then by all means, Keep your questing greens on!
:)
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90 Undead Rogue
8475
02/24/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Toskosa
i would not be against a ilvl que but at the same time i am concerned about que times. its a double edges blade. i did not read most of the thread because of the walls of text so i just assumed it was the usual crap.


There would be nothing to "Prevent" a full malv player from joining a random battleground. His gear would just be reduced to that of 466 ilvl dreadful upon entering. He didnt get any worse, all his 1337 pro skill is still with him,

All this is doing is shortening the gear discrepancy in one of the LOWEST forms of organized pvp. You know, the one where people are trying to get their DREADFUL set?
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90 Human Rogue
2845
02/24/2013 05:31 PMPosted by Stunshine
I swear you see PVP and PVE next to each other and you stop reading.

He does have a point though. The two systems are very different, and trying to compare them is just going to run into issues. And even if you did basically break down the gear progression tiers for both PvE and PvP, challenge modes are completely unique. This is because there is no gear restriction at all in PvP.

A better (though still reaching) comparison would be heroic dungeon vs normal battlegrounds. Both offer a large amount of justice/honor and small amounts of valor/conquest. But neither have a maximum ilvl restriction. Though I do think this makes a decent argument for enforcing a minimum ilvl for a battleground queue. But that's another topic.

But, for the (5th?) time now, The point is you wouldnt want to be in a regular dungeon, reach the last boss only to find out its a heroic raid boss with 544,000,000 health.
And you most certainly wouldnt hit him, be one shotted and then brag about how "WE GAVE HIM A TOUGH TIME THOUGH GUIZE"

You still can gain justice points for killing the easier bosses, and are only rewarded valor for killing the final boss. The same could be said of battlegrounds. You gain honor regardless if you win or not. Conquest is the incentive of winning the battleground. Basically even if you lose, or fail to kill the final boss, you are still progressing and killing that final boss/winning that battleground becomes easier and easier as you progress. It's still a weak comparison, but I think you should consider that perspective.
Edited by Esclamayshun on 2/24/2013 5:48 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9320
Then move on because you're obviously not comprehending the arguement.
No, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know an NPC and a player are different. Shocker.


Oh really?

02/24/2013 04:50 PMPosted by Stunshine
You wouldnt put a random, unbeatable raid boss smack dab in the middle of that dungeon would you? But hey, that raid boss deserves to c***smack you doesnt he? because hes been in that dungeon longer than you have and you have no business trying to gear up for a raid.


What's this now? That raid boss can only do set actions. That's it. Smart raids can "outplay" those bosses.

On the reset the next week? They can't decide and go "Hey that's the group that beat me last time. I better try something different."

Something a player can do. Not a raid boss.

But that's just my personal opinion, and thats all it ever was. If you enjoy it then by all means, Keep your questing greens on!
:)


Except that I'm in mostly in blue PvP gear which is considered crap, not complaining and getting snarky at others. Going at my own pace to gear, enjoying something to work for, and not losing patience of getting my next upgrade.

You?
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90 Undead Rogue
8475
02/24/2013 05:44 PMPosted by Esclamayshun
Though I do think this makes a decent argument for enforcing a minimum ilvl for a battleground queue. But that's another topic.


And if this were possible, I'd be even more for it than maximum ilvl, but simply put, I dont see how someone would meet a "PVP" minimum ilvl if they were restricted from doing random bg's.

You'd basically be forced to run dungeons until your ilvl was high enough to queue for a random, in which then you would have to grind for an honor set.

This is because there is no gear restriction at all in PvP.


This.
A better point if there was any others, I'm sorry I've confused alot of the others in this thread when I typed PVE in big letters trying to get my point across.

PVP will never be balanced as long as high geared players are allowed to faceroll the bottom teir.

You can either:
1. Put item level restrictions on random battlegrounds, RBG's, and arenas to prevent someone from being in the wrong bracket. This would increase queue times.

2. You can normalize "overgeared" player's ilvls to that of the fitting bracket. You'll still be the BEST geared that bracket can allow, and hey, You're the same skilled player, So literally the only thing this would prevent is the ability for someone to win a fight solely because they outgear them.

*******To even increase the incentive to participate in all levels of play, asthetic rewards IN ADDITION to gear progression could be introduced.

Because, like I said, what need would the 491 player have with honor? its useless outside of buying motes or trading for justice. If they reintroduced honor sinks much like the "_______ war mounts" it would even increase battleground participation.
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90 Undead Rogue
8475
Kirama
90 Night Elf Rogue
Lithium
6105
02/24/2013 04:50 PMPosted by Stunshine
All this creates is an environment where an already displeasing honor grind becomes so UNBEARABLE, that you have the same problem with people botting that you do now

Honor grind doesn't even take that long. In fact, some refuse to buy contender's gear because of it being replaced so quickly.

It only took me a week to get all of my expensive pieces on my alt.

02/24/2013 04:50 PMPosted by Stunshine
Heroic Dg's are for people trying to gear up for raiding correct? You wouldnt put a random, unbeatable raid boss smack dab in the middle of that dungeon would you? But hey, that raid boss deserves to c***smack you doesnt he? because hes been in that dungeon longer than you have and you have no business trying to gear up for a raid.

You're comparing PvE to PvP. Against an NPC, where it takes smart play and knowledge of the fight to beat it. What kind of argument is this?


This is what you said.
You're comparing PvE to PvP. Against an NPC, where it takes smart play and knowledge of the fight to beat it. What kind of argument is this?


I asked you how you make a smart play against an NPC. How do you outplay an NPC?

You turn around and said only players can make smart plays.

Do you even know what you're trying to say?

EDIT: More so, are you honestly saying that you've been arguing with me this entire time because you thought I was saying that a PVE boss can be outplayed?

Lol.

See, because this is what happens when you don't read.

In that case, you tell me EXACTLY how you make a smart play against an NPC, something thats going to do the same scripted sequence over and over. Lol. That gave me a good laugh. Knowledge yes, But dg's and raiding, you either did what you were supposed to do or you didnt. Its an art of perfecting one's execution, but theres no "outplaying" an NPC.


This is probably the part you DIDNT read.
Edited by Stunshine on 2/24/2013 6:03 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9320
I asked you how you make a smart play against an NPC. How do you outplay an NPC?

You turn around and said only players can make smart plays.

Do you even know what you're trying to say?


Do you even understand?

That even the slightest mistake can screw a group over? Meaning they have to play smart?

Edit:

02/24/2013 05:57 PMPosted by Stunshine
This is probably the part you DIDNT read.


I answered. All I got was you continuing to ask how is it outplaying an NPC.
Edited by Kirama on 2/24/2013 6:04 PM PST
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90 Undead Mage
1935
All I see from people like you is:
1. You're too afraid to get stomped in any sort of actual "Competitive" environment.
2. You're the type of player that gets his T2 weapon, and then proceeds to faceroll random bg's whilst streaming to show the world how good you are.
If that is your takeaway then I feel very sorry for you. You are completely wrong & it is clear that your emotions dictate your opinions, rather than logic & common sense.

02/24/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Toskosa
i would not be against a ilvl que but at the same time i am concerned about que times. its a double edges blade
I thought two BG brackets made sense until I discovered a blue post that stated that queue times would likely "dramatically increase". No thanks, not worth it.
Edited by Kiaransali on 2/24/2013 6:05 PM PST
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90 Human Rogue
2845
02/24/2013 05:55 PMPosted by Stunshine
PVP will never be balanced as long as high geared players are allowed to faceroll the bottom teir.

Well (and I don't really agree) battlegrounds aren't meant to be overly balanced. Balance is supposedly centered around 3v3 and to an extent Rated battlegrounds. Again, the gear disparity will slowly fix itself. The only reason it's more apparent this expansion is how useless they made PvE gear in PvP (working as intended.)

I mean this without sarcasm and/or a condescending tone, but have you seen what they have planned for PvP gear starting in 5.2?
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90 Undead Rogue
8475
I asked you how you make a smart play against an NPC. How do you outplay an NPC?

You turn around and said only players can make smart plays.

Do you even know what you're trying to say?


Do you even understand?

That even the slightest mistake can screw a group over? Meaning they have to play smart?


They have to know the fight.
Knowing something, and outwitting something, are two different things.

You cannot outplay any PVE boss of any sort. You either performed the mechanics of the fight or you didnt.

I cant OUTPLAY the Lich King. I either avoided the traps, or I got launched off the edge. A fight that to this day kills 90 players.

Maybe one day, several expansions later, I can one shot the Lich King. But as any PVP player knows, One shotting isnt outplaying someone.

If you still dont understand, I feel sorry for you. It was a good run. Lol.

Unless you want to talk about exploiting a bug in a raid encounter. Which I do believe to be cheating, and not actually "outplaying" eh?
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90 Undead Rogue
8475
02/24/2013 06:04 PMPosted by Esclamayshun
PVP will never be balanced as long as high geared players are allowed to faceroll the bottom teir.

Well (and I don't really agree) battlegrounds aren't meant to be overly balanced. Balance is supposedly centered around 3v3 and to an extent Rated battlegrounds. Again, the gear disparity will slowly fix itself. The only reason it's more apparent this expansion is how useless they made PvE gear in PvP (working as intended.)

I mean this without sarcasm and/or a condescending tone, but have you seen what they have planned for PvP gear starting in 5.2?


I caught wind of the "catch up" system, which Daxx ended up saying something along the lines of "We'd love to get this in for 5.2, but it probably wont happen until 5.3"

And honestly, the upgrade system along with no access to PVP honor weapons is probably the most outlying cause of the problem.

And while I whole heartedly agree that this will alleviate the problem, I still don't see what reason a fully geared player would have to enter a random battle ground:
-pstt.. I do, but none of the people arguing will flat out say "I want to use the gear ive earned to gib people"
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So...how about that time that guild outplayed heroic deathwing? I hear they dodged his fire, Blizzard never saw it coming? :3
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90 Night Elf Rogue
9320
They have to know the fight.
Knowing something, and outwitting something, are two different things.

You cannot outplay any PVE boss of any sort. You either performed the mechanics of the fight or you didnt.

I cant OUTPLAY the Lich King. I either avoided the traps, or I got launched off the edge. A fight that to this day kills 90 players.

Maybe one day, several expansions later, I can one shot the Lich King. But as any PVP player knows, One shotting isnt outplaying someone.

If you still dont understand, I feel sorry for you. It was a good run. Lol.


You make an example as if that raid boss is the player decked out in Conquest gear. Again, against someone with his/her own conscience.

Performing what is needed to be done, is considered outplaying that raid boss. How many times do you think top guilds wipe until the figure out how it's done? Thinking, observing it. That is a way of outplaying.

Set actions, not player actions. YOU compared the two.

Any other "lol" and snide remarks?
Edited by Kirama on 2/24/2013 6:15 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
8560
02/24/2013 05:00 AMPosted by Esclamayshun
League of Legends is a skill based game and there is no gear disparity. Plenty of pvp players enjoy that game and don't find it boring.

You're clashing genres though. There is some spillover into both genres, sure. But I'm betting the majority of WoW players enjoy the grinds and progression. So your typical wow player probably would find it boring to have no gear progression at all in PvP. Some players would like it, there's no doubt about it. But GC said it best imo, that the game would have no legs (staying power) without gear progression.


While this is right for people who enjoy PVE, this is not the case for people who enjoy PVP.

Getting gear is fun, but its not why we PVP.
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90 Undead Rogue
8475
They have to know the fight.
Knowing something, and outwitting something, are two different things.

You cannot outplay any PVE boss of any sort. You either performed the mechanics of the fight or you didnt.

I cant OUTPLAY the Lich King. I either avoided the traps, or I got launched off the edge. A fight that to this day kills 90 players.

Maybe one day, several expansions later, I can one shot the Lich King. But as any PVP player knows, One shotting isnt outplaying someone.

If you still dont understand, I feel sorry for you. It was a good run. Lol.


You make an example as if that raid boss is the player decked out in Conquest gear. Again, against someone with his/her own conscience.

Performing what is needed to be done, is considered outplaying that raid boss. How many times do you think top guilds wipe until the figure out how it's done? Thinking, observing it. That is a way of outplaying.

Set actions, not player actions. YOU compared the two.

Any other childish remarks with "lol" and insults?


You need to find a dictionary. And probably some English textbooks.

No, I never once said that a NPC has consciousness. That's...some pretty far fetched stuff my friend.

I really do implore you to go back and read a few of my analogies. I really do think that could've saved a headache on your part.

EDIT: Okay, I can't help myself:
"Thinking, observing it" ? LOL. What are you doing, watching animal planet? You look up how to beat the encounter. Thats not outplaying the boss. You even took what I had said and repeated it to me!

No my alliance friend. In terms of any PVE encounter, you either knew the fight or you didn't. Maybe when we get to heroic bosses, we can talk about beating berserk timers. But if i were to yell
"GET OUTPLAYED SHA OF FEAR" on a kill, I'd probably get some weird whispers :)
Edited by Stunshine on 2/24/2013 6:24 PM PST
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90 Human Rogue
2845
And while I whole heartedly agree that this will alleviate the problem, I still don't see what reason a fully geared player would have to enter a random battle ground:
-pstt.. I do, but none of the people arguing will flat out say "I want to use the gear ive earned to gib people"

Well, while this may be the case for some players, don't make the mistake that many others make and throw out blanket statements. I AM one of the players you're talking about. My main has 483 or 485 ilvl and all I really do is play randoms. I do this because I queue with a friend of mine to have fun. I prefer battlegrounds to arena for the most part and Rateds just don't appeal to me. I assure you however that if I do kill someone in lower gear, I don't puff out my chest and act like I'm some pvp God. I play the objectives, and as a little side objective of my own seek out and lock down their better geared players.

It is definitely no fun being tremendously outgeared, I've been there. You just take your lumps til you catch up and have fun along the way.
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90 Human Rogue
2845
02/24/2013 06:18 PMPosted by Cezar
Getting gear is fun, but its not why we PVP.

I disagree. I enjoy getting gear. But personally it wouldn't affect me if all pvp gear was standardized. 5.2 and 5.3 will make all gear pretty standard anyways, it'll just inolve some effort.
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