Phantasm change.

90 Undead Priest
4545
02/25/2013 11:48 PMPosted by Lostgravity
Wasn't OP for disc/holy.


That may very well be the case, I am speaking from the point of view of shadow.

ya bro, because even with that tool, Spriests had too great of survivalbility and/or movement, even greater than that of a Warlock or Mage..... owait.

also, in response to the inevitable it's because Mages/Locks can't offheal. That's probably because they do 2x more damage, burst, and have far more CC (mages).


Well ya. We had just as much kiting/escape tools of a mage or lock AND we had bubbles and offheals. All that in combination made us OP. It's really not hard to understand.

Now even with change we have pretty much the same amount of escape, maybe slightly less, but that is made up by the fact that we can run around a corner and pop ourselves back to full health, anytime we want.

If you are being outdamaged as shadow 2x by ANYTHING you are doing it wrong. Sure they, especially mages, might have 2x our BURST, but not damage overall, shadow does fantastic damage.
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90 Undead Priest
4545
02/26/2013 02:00 AMPosted by Egwugwu
Someone brought up druid vanish as reasoning to keep Phantasm as-is, lol. Not only is that getting removed but you should really try to abstain from pointing fingers to other classes for justification. Mages and locks are the way they are, you are neither of those classes and you do not need non-aoe ranged-immunity abilities on short CD to compete.


Bingo.
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78 Goblin Priest
2880
02/26/2013 06:33 AMPosted by Ocyla
Tendrils and Phantasm are on different tiers, so I'm confused as to what you're getting at here.

It gives you breathing room, which is reportedly why so many spriests resent the nerf to phantasm.
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90 Human Priest
8025
Every class does have a "you can't touch me" escape or troll ability, I'm unsure what the OP is trying to say...

Since it lasts for only 3 sec and affects ONLY ranged, the real question is... why decrease survivability in an already weak, fragile, broken class?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10330
Darkapostle, is there a reason why I can't look at your character profile? I was wanting to look at your PvP experience. I find your stance odd, and am wondering if you PvP at all, or are just trolling.

I mean no offence... just curious.

on topic; There are so very many talents that are annoying and have people complaining OP. 3 seconds of not being able to target someone (i.e. ranged immunity).... really? What about if the priest had 3 seconds of immunity to spells instead? What about foiling any escape plan with 2 x deathgrips, then a stun, then a silence? Nah thats not annoying or OP eh? Gotta realise, the amount of lockout a priest can experience is huge from many classes.

And someone said above that we should not compare this to other classes abilities... What? of course we need to. in fact you must! 3 seconds of being untargetable to range, is nothing compared to other classes abilities.
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Darkapostle, is there a reason why I can't look at your character profile? I was wanting to look at your PvP experience. I find your stance odd, and am wondering if you PvP at all, or are just trolling.

I mean no offence... just curious.

on topic; There are so very many talents that are annoying and have people complaining OP. 3 seconds of not being able to target someone (i.e. ranged immunity).... really? What about if the priest had 3 seconds of immunity to spells instead? What about foiling any escape plan with 2 x deathgrips, then a stun, then a silence? Nah thats not annoying or OP eh? Gotta realise, the amount of lockout a priest can experience is huge from many classes.

And someone said above that we should not compare this to other classes abilities... What? of course we need to. in fact you must! 3 seconds of being untargetable to range, is nothing compared to other classes abilities.

Evidently these concepts are too much for you at this time.

Please get it into your head that Shadow Priest is an entirely different class than Death Knight, Mage, or Warlock, with entirely different sets of tools. If you want to compare ability to ability directly, then you are not looking for class balance but class homogenization.

You are wrong.

Since it lasts for only 3 sec and affects ONLY ranged, the real question is... why decrease survivability in an already weak, fragile, broken class?

Disc is getting some substantial buffs in 5.2, namely Focused Will, Penance, and Spirit Shell, among other changes. Spirit Shell halving the cost of Flash Heal and being undispellable is a very, very large buff when you take into account those Spirit Shells are not only increased in absorption from changes in mechanics, heightened gear, but each cast is also shortening the duration of Weakened Soul at a 50% reduced mana cost with your fastest cast-time heal. Now all they need to do is buff Smite damage by 300%.
Edited by Funker on 2/27/2013 9:46 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10330
[quote]Evidently these concepts are too much for you at this time.

Please get it into your head that Shadow Priest is an entirely different class than Death Knight, Mage, or Warlock, with entirely different sets of tools. If you want to compare ability to ability directly, then you are not looking for class balance but class homogenization.

You are wrong.

Haha, you funny little rogue.
Lets break that down without your filler guff:

    Shadow Priest is an entirely different class than Death Knight, Mage, or Warlock, with entirely different sets of tools.

^Thank you, here I was expecting my fade to make me vanish! Glad we got that cleared up.

    If you want to compare ability to ability directly, then you are not looking for class balance but class homogenization

^Eureka! Someone actually gets it! (partially at least) See, I was not comparing or complaining to remove other classes 'annoying' abilities at all. I want them to stay! I HATE homogenisation. My point is there is no good reason to have removed this 3 second immunity. It is not OP, if you know how to deal with it. It gives the priest a counter to some other classes abilities such as 2 x death grips. 3 seconds immunity to ranged attacks is insignificant compared to many other abilities. You also have to consider what the the priest gives up in accepting this talent - which is massive speed boosts. My comparison is simply displaying the fact there are "worse and more aggressive/annoying" talents out there. I strongly believe those upset with this talent are just annoyed because their little priest targets are slightly more slippery.

The buffs by the way are not that significant. A huge problem priests have are escapes (from a healing priest perspective). The cc's from a single class (e.g. warrior) can stun, interrupt, fear & silence. DK's use their 2 x Death Grips as interrupts as well as their usual arsenal to interrupt healing. The extra 10% from focused will is necessary due to the large burst we are seeing, but is very little extra damage reduction. It will certainly help with those "close shaves", but that is it. The other buffs are only useful once you can actually get free from the melee.

The spirit shell... all will happen is you force the opponent to switch to a target that is not Shelled. Or, if they are shelled, then you pull out CC's on the oponents untill the SS wears off, keeping the healer out of action. For anyone knowing what they are doing, its effects can be made largely mitigated.

Did you know the new UI shows absorbs as part of their health bar? (i.e. at the end of their health). So everyone will be able to see who has absorbs on them, and who doesn't. Think of this as a "switch advisor".

So right back at ya: "your wrong".
Edited by Reviver on 2/28/2013 3:50 AM PST
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My little priest targets don't need gimmicky abilities on short cooldowns to be a capable class. Patch 5.2 brings some welcome changes that in fact address two actual concerns with the class which are survivability and throughput/mana (to a reasonable degree), All you have to do is not get outplayed like hell, which seems to be the only possibility in the situations you're describing.

^Thank you, here I was expecting my fade to make me vanish! Glad we got that cleared up.

I pity you
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10330
02/28/2013 09:20 PMPosted by Funker
My little priest targets don't need gimmicky abilities on short cooldowns to be a capable class.

Don't be silly!!! most talents are gimmicky. From Ring of frost to Vanish! Many classes rely on gimmicky abilities (as you refer them). Anything other than direct damage actions of direct healing abilities are gimmicky. Being creative and different (reducing homogenisation) is what makes the combat interesting. So this is a silly statement, or I dare you challange me without anything but raw dps abilities.

Patch 5.2 brings some welcome changes that in fact address two actual concerns with the class which are survivability and throughput/mana (to a reasonable degree),

I do not disagree, but I am not arguing against this.
All you have to do is not get outplayed like hell, which seems to be the only possibility in the situations you're describing.

A generic statement, true, yet meaningless. Anyone, to win, needs to outplay off course. The point of all this is this: The ability was not OP, as previously explained. People have complained about it and so it is nerfed, yet there is perfectly good argument in to why it is not OP. I am yet to hear why a 3 second immunity to ranged attacks is a problem? Other than learning to work with it.
^Thank you, here I was expecting my fade to make me vanish! Glad we got that cleared up.

I pity you

Why? Do you pity me because I resorted to sarcasm? Or do you pity me because you thought I was serious? I am curious.
Edited by Reviver on 3/1/2013 12:23 AM PST
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Ring of Frost has been nerfed repeatedly, it's completely bearable. Vanish for a class that relies on openers out of stealth is not gimmicky but makes total sense. An immunity to any non-AoE ranged ability is overpowered and annoying, which is why it's being removed. Ring of Frost being virtually untrinketable was also overpowered and annoying, and was also nerfed. Priests have no need whatsoever for this ability, all of their weaknesses can be addressed by actually buffing the areas that need buffs, like mana longevity. You'll be happier once your class is actually balanced around the abilities you need, not some random overpowered bone Blizzard threw your way to shut you up about how !@#$ty your class was otherwise.

If you think anything else you said actually merits a response let me know.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10330
Ring of Frost has been nerfed repeatedly,... Vanish...... not gimmicky but makes total sense.

They only make total sense because these talents pre-existed and everyone are used to them. I used them as two random examples. If they did not exist before 5.2, and were introduced now, you would be calling them gimmicy.
An immunity to any non-AoE ranged ability is overpowered and annoying,

Ahhh-huh!!!! yes I see that magic little word in there... "Annoying". Why is it annoying? And why is 3 seconds of immunity overpowering? Is annoying really a good excuse? Lol.... many talents are annoying to their oponents. Please consider pre-existing or similar effects by other classes before just saying "it is just OP". Because it is 3 little seconds. 3. only 3, and is countered my most classes. Also, pets can still attack, or snare. for those 3 seconds. 3.... 3 seconds.

Before something can be OP, it needs to be above and beyond the effectiveness of any other talent that exists; if it is above and beyond then it creates precedence. There are far greater damage immunity capabilities that exist. Keep in mind, that ranged classes will also not waste focus or procs when attacking the priest when Phantism is active (since the are unable to target/attack).
which is why it's being removed.

No, you gave a blanket 'it is annoying and OP' argument for removing it. I have not seen an argument why it is OP (and I am ignoring that it is annoying, for obvious reasons).
Ring of Frost being virtually untrinketable was also overpowered and annoying, and was also nerfed.

Ring of frost is usually avoidable, but possibly that's another example of something that should not have been nerfed. It is a very unique, powerful and interesting talent - but can be avoided (unless feared into it or traped etc... in which case, well played).
Priests have no need whatsoever for this ability, all of their weaknesses can be addressed by actually buffing the areas that need buffs, like mana longevity.

There is a reason Disc is poorly represented. The massive CC chaining possible at the moment (which has not been addressed for 5.2) and being able to escape occasionally to be able to heal yourself, let alone heal your companions. You can not say "all their weeknesses can be addressed by buffing.."; a large and important area that needs buffing, is the escape function of our survival.
You'll be happier once your class is actually balanced around the abilities you need, not some random overpowered bone Blizzard threw your way to shut you up about how !@#$ty your class was otherwise.

Easy rover. The abilities we need are those that are capable of dealing with excessive CC (lack of cross DR ... but that is another topic). Since the issue of CC has been largely unaddressed, then Disc priests need escape opportunities.
If you think anything else you said actually merits a response let me know.

Take your pick rogue.
Edited by Reviver on 3/1/2013 2:53 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
13650
Still don't see how a 3 second immunity against ranged only is overpowered in the light of other similar spells like AMS, Camo, and Smoke Bomb.
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90 Undead Priest
5455
02/27/2013 06:25 PMPosted by Reviver
Darkapostle, is there a reason why I can't look at your character profile?


I recently moved servers, which is why you can't see my armory.

02/27/2013 03:25 PMPosted by Bíon
Since it lasts for only 3 sec and affects ONLY ranged, the real question is... why decrease survivability in an already weak, fragile, broken class?


That's the thing. We are not weak, fragile or broken. Far from it. We are arguably the best class in pvp right now, maybe behind warriors. We are in no way AT ALL easy to kill. We have a lot of control and surviability tools, and when you added a hand of freedom baked into a ranged immunity, on a 30 second cooldown...it became too much.

I see on your armory that you are Holy/Disc. This is all in relation to shadow. I should have mentioned that in the original post. That's my bad. I can understand this might hurt healing alot, and perhaps they should keep it for heals only, shadow simply does not need it.

03/01/2013 04:58 AMPosted by Raisheal
Still don't see how a 3 second immunity against ranged only is overpowered in the light of other similar spells like AMS, Camo, and Smoke Bomb.


Fade has a 30 second cooldown... That's half the cooldown of Camo, and 1/6 of the cooldown of Smoke bomb, AMS is the only one with even close to similar cd, and even that is 15 seconds longer, and when you consider that DKs have almost no defensive cooldowns outside of AMS it makes sense that theirs is a short CD. But shadow is in no shortage of defensive or surviability cds, we have some of the best survivability of any dps class. We don't need a ranged immunity added to our list, certainly not one on a shorter cooldown than any other.
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Reviver, you don't understand how priests work.
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90 Undead Priest
5455
03/01/2013 02:50 AMPosted by Reviver
Before something can be OP, it needs to be above and beyond the effectiveness of any other talent that exists


Phantasm is though... it has the shortest cooldown of any ability similar. And when you consider that it was added to the already impressive toolkit of shadow priest surviability abilities it becomes OP.
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90 Undead Priest
15125
Can you edit your initial post to make it crystal clear you are talking about Shadow Priests only. I recognize that Shadow is in a good spot, and the change to phantasm likely won't cripple it. But disc was sub-par in S12, and certainly doesn't need to be lumped in with Shadow when people discuss PvP class balance.

Maybe phantasm needed to be nerfed across the board, but it sure would be nice to see more meaningful buffs to the underperforming spec to compensate for losing such a valuable tool. For starters, it would be nice to see spectral guise functioning properly.
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90 Undead Priest
5455
Can you edit your initial post to make it crystal clear you are talking about Shadow Priests only. I recognize that Shadow is in a good spot, and the change to phantasm likely won't cripple it. But disc was sub-par in S12, and certainly doesn't need to be lumped in with Shadow when people discuss PvP class balance.


Absolutely. I included shadow every time I said priest. That is my bad entirely for not including that from the start. Shoulda thought about the healing priests view on this. Sorry about that
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10330
03/01/2013 06:00 AMPosted by Funker
Reviver, you don't understand how priests work.

These forums are very difficult to tolerate when we have to filter this stuff out.

03/01/2013 05:57 AMPosted by Darkapøstle
I recently moved servers, which is why you can't see my armory.

Thanks Darkapostle. I kinda got an inkling it was more about shadow, since most arguments swung that way.

I personally do very little with shadow, and can not argue either way.

If you personally are on the PTR as a shadow priest, and say you are having a good time (by that I mean not feeling underpowered) then that is certainly good news for shadow.

I will leave this thread to Shadow then Darkapostle!!
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90 Human Priest
8755
I agree with takeing it away from shadow, but it kind of felt like heals really needed it.
But what do i know, I only play shadow.
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I agree with takeing it away from shadow, but it kind of felt like heals really needed it.
But what do i know, I only play shadow.

I think you'll find you'll appreciate the class more when your other tools are stronger, instead of relying on ranged immunity to cast your crappy spirit shell and Penance with your crappier Focused Will. Buffs in places you really need them are better than Phantasm.
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