Lock Tanking "Why's"

90 Human Warrior
13205
I have seen and read several threads about lock tanking on the forums, and since I don't play the warlock myself I am not the first hand originator of the complaint, but it is quite confounding when you think about it.

To begin, we decided to test the viability of Warlock Tanking in it's current form. To do this, we geared out a warlock (except trinkets) for tanking, then reforged and gemmed for all Mastery / Stamina. After some effort with nothing but mostly LFR gear (around 476 ilvl) we had the lock at 550khp, 5% dodge, ~50% damage reduction from armor and ~20% from mastery for a total of 70% physical damage reduction, unbuffed. The stats aren’t extraordinary, but neither trinket had tank stats or stamina and she could have gained around 40khp from two stamina / tanking trinkets alone.

We then took her into MSV and ran World of Logs to compare the data against myself tanking the same exact situations. We had her solo tank the trash. On all of the trash, with her effectively rotating smaller CD’s, her damage taken per second was very comparable to my own on my 484ilvl tank. We repeated this over several pulls to get enough data for it to be considered “viable” (we have nowhere near enough data for it to be conclusive). We then fought the Stone Guardians. While tanking, due to the ridiculous nature of her taunt working on everything but bosses, her damage sustained was marginally higher than mine on my warrior (even with her getting crit).

We stopped here because tank swapping is just silly at this point, and the experiment had told us it was possible for a warlock to tank raids effectively (IF taunt worked) in their current form.

So the point of this thread is to ask a few questions of Blizzard:
- Why does the Glyph of Demon Hunting even exist, and why require a glyph to get taunt if it isn’t going to actually work (on bosses / content that is relevant)?

- What is the point of the tank form (Dark Apotheosis), and all of the evidence of a warlock being able to tank?

I can’t for the life of me figure out why these things even exist for the warlock in such a state that leaves it literally 1 ability away from being able to tank. This makes no sense to me. I am a tank as my main spec and I support warlock tanking to its fullest and personally am frustrated over Blizzard adding this much to a class, for it to just fall short.

I hope this doesn’t turn into a “don’t change warlocks” or “omgnowai don’t let warlocks tank” threat, but rather a discussion of what the usefulness of the abilities / form are and why it is blizzard has not allowed warlock to take this next step?

Lastly, could blizzard please allow this taunt to work? Even if Warlocks wouldn't be as effective, it is fun to make such things work even when they're not supposed to work as well.

Thank You and I apologize for the length
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
"Hey everyone I had a warlock tank stone guards, and some trash

So they can tank anything and everything."

That's what I read.

- What is the point of the tank form (Dark Apotheosis)


PvP, funsies, kind of nice for leveling.

02/26/2013 09:33 AMPosted by Nethril
I hope this doesn’t turn into a “don’t change warlocks” or “omgnowai don’t let warlocks tank” threat, but rather a discussion of what the usefulness of the abilities / form are and why it is blizzard has not allowed warlock to take this next step?


Because they don't want warlocks to tank. They made the glyph for fun, and a bit of a different pace. Not to give them another role. It's highly unlikely they ever intend to change a pure into a hybrid.

They gave an inch, and now you want a mile. That's really the moral of story with DA.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
6915
My MAIN problem with this is they either Add a spec for us or change Demo. Now the ladder seems waaaay less likely than the former, people who love Demo as is would not like being Forced or yelled at for "Why U DPS in tank spec nub?". TO the former, Yes they added a 4th spec for Druids, but that's a different story as Bear Tanks and Kitty DPS have been around for a loooong time.
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90 Human Warrior
13205
"Hey everyone I had a warlock tank stone guards, and some trash

So they can tank anything and everything."

That's what I read.

- What is the point of the tank form (Dark Apotheosis)


PvP, funsies, kind of nice for leveling.

02/26/2013 09:33 AMPosted by Nethril
I hope this doesn’t turn into a “don’t change warlocks” or “omgnowai don’t let warlocks tank” threat, but rather a discussion of what the usefulness of the abilities / form are and why it is blizzard has not allowed warlock to take this next step?


Because they don't want warlocks to tank. They made the glyph for fun, and a bit of a different pace. Not to give them another role. It's highly unlikely they ever intend to change a pure into a hybrid.

They gave an inch, and now you want a mile. That's really the moral of story with DA.


I commented directly in it that the results were nothing conclusive and only stood to prove it was viable to consider.

Secondly, why add it for "fun"? What "fun" is it? If they're not intended to tank, then why give 500% threat, AC increase, a "fun" taunt, and everything that seems to lead to tanking. Also, I don't play a warlock. I actually don't personally enjoy the warlock class so my only vested interest here is I see something that makes no sense and was hoping to gain a better understanding without invoking negativity.

I appreciate constructive responses. Don't want this going the way of complaining or flaming.
Edited by Nethril on 2/26/2013 11:38 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13205
02/26/2013 11:35 AMPosted by Essandem
My MAIN problem with this is they either Add a spec for us or change Demo. Now the ladder seems waaaay less likely than the former, people who love Demo as is would not like being Forced or yelled at for "Why U DPS in tank spec nub?". TO the former, Yes they added a 4th spec for Druids, but that's a different story as Bear Tanks and Kitty DPS have been around for a loooong time.


Druid was actually one of the first things I thought of when I saw this. I kinda figured it was like the Kitty / Bear deal.
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I played a bit with warlock tanking and it felt ok. I'm not sure what blizzard intended but I think of it as an emergency tank. If there are fights that mostly require one tank but you need a second one for 10-15 seconds for some stacks to fall off the main tank. Or when the only tank dies, demo lock can immediately get into tanking stance, taunt and hold the boss until main tank is rezed. The advantage is that the lock can put out much more dps when not tanking than the off-tank. I guess any situation where kitty would go bear in an encounter.
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90 Orc Warlock
11340
I don't know how to feel about this issue. IF they only changed it so that taunt worked and we had crit reduction yes it's be pretty great and I'd actually tank some, but if they changed dps demo in ANY way there'd be huge backlash.

As for the point of the glyph, mostly for fun/5 mans right now. Plus I forget which but a blue even mentioned it was for "oh !@#$" moments, like an arms warr going sword and board and popping defensive cds when a tank goes down.
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90 Human Warrior
13205
I don't know how to feel about this issue. IF they only changed it so that taunt worked and we had crit reduction yes it's be pretty great and I'd actually tank some, but if they changed dps demo in ANY way there'd be huge backlash.

As for the point of the glyph, mostly for fun/5 mans right now. Plus I forget which but a blue even mentioned it was for "oh !@#$" moments, like an arms warr going sword and board and popping defensive cds when a tank goes down.


I saw that post actually. My issue there is, the only times when "oh !@#$" moments really come up and would need a tank to go into action are on raid bosses. If I am arms and I have an oh S moment, sword / board, taunt, shieldwall. Wouldn't work for the lock because the boss is immune.

Yeah, I would say it would suck if they reduced the DPS of the spec in return for it being tank oriented. Really, they should make up their mind and either remove it or make it real. It seems like such a half ........ attempt at adding something with no planned outcome or structure to it.
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
02/26/2013 11:36 AMPosted by Nethril
I commented directly in it that the results were nothing conclusive and only stood to prove it was viable to consider.


I can get my shaman to tank stone guards if I really wanted to. Doesn't mean it's viable to consider. I remember a resto shaman "tanking" Prince Melchazar in Kara back in BC by keeping healing aggro on him. And no, he wasn't overgeared.

02/26/2013 11:36 AMPosted by Nethril
If they're not intended to tank, then why give 500% threat, AC increase, a "fun" taunt, and everything that seems to lead to tanking.


They also don't have the crit reduction talent so if you want to play the game of "Why are they given this if not meant to tank" I'll counter that with "Why aren't we given crit removal if we are intended to tank."

Quite frankly don't be surprised if/when Blizzard removes the DA glyph in the next expansion and labels it a failed experiment at giving players fun stuff.
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90 Worgen Warlock
11490
The reason they dont have a taunt and crit immunity is because when we did it was way way too powerful so powerful in fact they had lv85 warlocks soloing the first boss of heroic dragons soul
they didnt remove the glyph because its a fun thing to have and they are still thinking about making it viable but they need to work on balancing it
If they make it the way it was every raid would demand a warlock tank because they would be just that powerful
If they make it too weak like it now it will never be used in current content
so let them balance it out so that its on par with other tanks and not so good that they lose their raid spot
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
Blizzard is not working on balancing warlock tanks. So wherever you got that information is wrong. It really wouldn't be that hard to make warlocks be tanks if Blizzard wanted to.
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90 Undead Warlock
3560
I rolled a Warlock to play a pure DPS class, not a hybrid class, but that's just me.
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
02/26/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Divergent
You sound really bitter about a significant portion of the community wanting or agreeing with the concept of Warlock tanks.


Nice arbitrary information. But guess what? A large portion of the community wants and agrees with wanting nothing to do with the concept of warlock tanks.

02/26/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Divergent
What would be more "fun" is an actual tank spec. In fact, it would be thousands of times more fun.


Opinion. I don't find it fun because then that forces people to gear up two different specs if they want to min/max. It also makes it harder to get recruited since good raid guilds typically want people to run at least two specs, if not all three.

02/26/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Divergent
They have never said that they don't want Warlocks to tank. They said that it was not in their original plans and that they were surprised by the community uproar.


Yeah, actually they did. When DA first came out everyone was like AWMAWGAWD BLIZZARD IS FINALLY GIVING US WARLOCK TANKS. WHOHOO THIS IS AWE-

And then this happened

Just to make our intent clear, the Glyph of Demon Hunting isn't intended to turn Demonology warlocks into a tanking spec. You won't be able to queue as a tank for Dungeon Finder for instance and won't have the survivability or tools of say a Protection paladin.

Historically, warlocks felt tankier than other casters and could even off-tank some encounters. We have made an effort in Mists to recapture some of that flavor. A warlock with this glyph should feel like they are about as effective tanking as an Arms warrior who pulls out a shield and swaps to Defensive Stance, or a Feral druid who goes into Bear form. You might be able to off-tank adds or pick up an actual boss for a short period of time if the tank goes down.

To make warlocks an actual tank would take more significant changes. For example, we want tanks to have to pick up separate tanking gear than their DPS gear (this is even true of druids) and want tanks to have to give up some of their DPS potential in exchange for their survivability. In short, it needs to be a commitment, and that's the sort of thing that needs larger gameplay changes than just a glyph.

That shouldn't stop the glyph of Demon Hunting from being fun though. As you can probably tell, we are trying to make even the major glyphs more about character customization and fun.


The glyph is really only there for warlocks to go AWMAWGAWD TANK DIED. I'LL SAVE THE DAY. Whether that's actually really all that helpful in a raid is...well I've been in a hardcore raiding guild this tier and we never had something like that happen, so I doubt it's utilized that much.

It was never intended to change the class into a hybrid class, but why would that negate anything?


Changing a pure to hybrid is a big step. People typically play a pure as their main if they don't want to be bothered by learning how to heal, or tank encounters. While they may have to switch to the current best spec they're still doing damage, and they only have to learn/perform a different rotation.

02/26/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Divergent
They gave us a half-baked glyph which, because it serves literally no purpose and is a detriment in both PvP and PvE, is underused for the amount of developer time that went into it.


And thus if I had to put money anywhere I bet Blizzard ends up canning the glyph sometime in MoP or at the release of the next expac. I dont' think their design intent of DA is ever going to come to fruition.

Warlock tanks tanked several raid bosses in vanilla, BC, WoTLK, and Cata using both Aff and Demo (Meta or Sl/Sl mode respectively). Much more than Shamans. Don't pretend Warlocks aren't far sturdier than every other non-tank capable class out there, because we are and testing it will prove it to you.

Don't hold onto bias if it's holding the class back.


Most of warlock off-tanking was due to Blizzard creating unique fights that required a non-tank class to "tank" part of an encounter. They weren't true tanks in the sense that they tanked raids if they wanted to. Off the top of my head I can think of the one SSC fight that required a high shadow resist lock, I believe a fight in BWL required a caster tank (not sure if locks just got favored in that or not), and I'm pretty sure Illidan needed a lock tank. WoTLK also had an ICC warlock tank fight. There was also Gruul's lair where mages tanked (and I remember some warlocks tanking it, and succeeding but it was very hard to pull off). That doesn't make mages tanks now though, or put them in any sort of position to argue for it.

And shamans were actually initially designed to be off-tanks (jack of all trades), but the design was scraped in TBC.

What is the value of Pure DPS except in the name, an irrelevant title that holds very little bearing on a classes abilities or unique traits?


Blizzard still says that their concept of the Hybrid tax isn't a hard written in stone concept, but that they want pures to be ahead of hybrids in DPS when you assume equal play. So there is an intent at difference.

02/26/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Divergent
As far as you should be concerned, adding a fourth spec would not inhibit on your typical playstyle in any fashion. It will not result in a DPS loss, it will not result in you being forced to tank, it will not result in any of the current specs being changed in any way.


Even Blizzard admits this isn't accurate, and they don't see it that way.
Edited by Varlth on 2/26/2013 5:30 PM PST
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90 Human Warlock
7450
You sound really bitter about a significant portion of the community wanting or agreeing with the concept of Warlock tanks.


Nice arbitrary information. But guess what? A large portion of the community wants and agrees with wanting nothing to do with the concept of warlock tanks.

What would be more "fun" is an actual tank spec. In fact, it would be thousands of times more fun.


Opinion. I don't find it fun because then that forces people to gear up two different specs if they want to min/max. It also makes it harder to get recruited since good raid guilds typically want people to run at least two specs, if not all three.

They have never said that they don't want Warlocks to tank. They said that it was not in their original plans and that they were surprised by the community uproar.


Yeah, actually they did. When DA first came out everyone was like AWMAWGAWD BLIZZARD IS FINALLY GIVING US WARLOCK TANKS. WHOHOO THIS IS AWE-

And then this happened

Just to make our intent clear, the Glyph of Demon Hunting isn't intended to turn Demonology warlocks into a tanking spec. You won't be able to queue as a tank for Dungeon Finder for instance and won't have the survivability or tools of say a Protection paladin.

Historically, warlocks felt tankier than other casters and could even off-tank some encounters. We have made an effort in Mists to recapture some of that flavor. A warlock with this glyph should feel like they are about as effective tanking as an Arms warrior who pulls out a shield and swaps to Defensive Stance, or a Feral druid who goes into Bear form. You might be able to off-tank adds or pick up an actual boss for a short period of time if the tank goes down.

To make warlocks an actual tank would take more significant changes. For example, we want tanks to have to pick up separate tanking gear than their DPS gear (this is even true of druids) and want tanks to have to give up some of their DPS potential in exchange for their survivability. In short, it needs to be a commitment, and that's the sort of thing that needs larger gameplay changes than just a glyph.

That shouldn't stop the glyph of Demon Hunting from being fun though. As you can probably tell, we are trying to make even the major glyphs more about character customization and fun.


The glyph is really only there for warlocks to go AWMAWGAWD TANK DIED. I'LL SAVE THE DAY. Whether that's actually really all that helpful in a raid is...well I've been in a hardcore raiding guild this tier and we never had something like that happen, so I doubt it's utilized that much.

It was never intended to change the class into a hybrid class, but why would that negate anything?


Changing a pure to hybrid is a big step. People typically play a pure as their main if they don't want to be bothered by learning how to heal, or tank encounters. While they may have to switch to the current best spec they're still doing damage, and they only have to learn/perform a different rotation.

02/26/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Divergent
They gave us a half-baked glyph which, because it serves literally no purpose and is a detriment in both PvP and PvE, is underused for the amount of developer time that went into it.


And thus if I had to put money anywhere I bet Blizzard ends up canning the glyph sometime in MoP or at the release of the next expac. I dont' think their design intent of DA is ever going to come to fruition.

Warlock tanks tanked several raid bosses in vanilla, BC, WoTLK, and Cata using both Aff and Demo (Meta or Sl/Sl mode respectively). Much more than Shamans. Don't pretend Warlocks aren't far sturdier than every other non-tank capable class out there, because we are and testing it will prove it to you.

Don't hold onto bias if it's holding the class back.


Most of warlock off-tanking was due to Blizzard creating unique fights that required a non-tank class to "tank" part of an encounter. They weren't true tanks in the sense that they tanked raids if they wanted to. Off the top of my head I can think of the one SSC fight that required a high shadow resist lock, I believe a fight in BWL required a caster tank (not sure if locks just got favored in that or not), and I'm pretty sure Illidan needed a lock tank. WoTLK also had an ICC warlock tank fight. There was also Gruul's lair where mages tanked (and I remember some warlocks tanking it, and succeeding but it was very hard to pull off). That doesn't make mages tanks now though, or put them in any sort of position to argue for it.

And shamans were actually initially designed to be off-tanks (jack of all trades), but the design was scraped in TBC.

What is the value of Pure DPS except in the name, an irrelevant title that holds very little bearing on a classes abilities or unique traits?


Blizzard still says that their concept of the Hybrid tax isn't a hard written in stone concept, but that they want pures to be ahead of hybrids in DPS when you assume equal play. So there is an intent at difference.

02/26/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Divergent
As far as you should be concerned, adding a fourth spec would not inhibit on your typical playstyle in any fashion. It will not result in a DPS loss, it will not result in you being forced to tank, it will not result in any of the current specs being changed in any way.


Even Blizzard admits this isn't accurate, and they don't see it that way.


Wow, i impressed it Only took 15 posts for you quit being an utter douche and provide some substantial input .
Edited by Maddalynn on 2/26/2013 7:15 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
02/26/2013 07:14 PMPosted by Maddalynn
Wow, i impressed it Only took 15 posts for you quit being an utter douche and provide some substantial input .


"Since you don't like the same idea that I do you are a douche"

I'd respond in full to Divergent but I'm currently raiding.
Edited by Varlth on 2/26/2013 7:34 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warlock
11490
what are you raiding with all of your lfr gear? DragonSoul?
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90 Draenei Shaman
14465
02/26/2013 07:41 PMPosted by Spirît
what are you raiding with all of your lfr gear? DragonSoul?


Ad homimen attacks are cute. Too bad it's not even accurate. Stopped hardcore raiding a little over three months ago. Did HSha progression to 25% before that.

How's it feel to know the dude who went casual three months ago is still more progressed than you?

That and besides bro, I'm not sure if you've heard but I totally just nabbed myself an almighty elite protector cloak and I'm feeling pretty fly for a Draenei.

And shouldn't you at least finish DS before you start asking if other people are still raiding it?
Edited by Lìax on 2/26/2013 7:49 PM PST
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