A question for GMs/Raid Leaders

85 Tauren Warrior
9525
Posting on an alt.

I'll keep it short and to the point. I've been a casual raider for most of the time that I've been playing WoW. That being said, I would like to start moving up in the progression ladder and raid with a guild that tends to be more serious about raiding. I've been searching for the right guild for me the past week or two to no avail so far.

What are some recommendations for someone who's looking to apply or join a guild that is better progressed but doesn't have the experience for it?
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90 Pandaren Monk
9885
If you haven't already, make sure the fights you are doing are being recorded in world of logs. Excel in your role for the fights that you do, use your healthstones, don't stand in poop and have nice DPS (if you are applying as dps). Make sure you are using potions and food buffs and using your cooldowns appropriately.

As for applying, be upfront about your progression but make sure you have researched the fights that you are intending to do. No one is perfect on the first pull, but you should least know the basic mechanics that are involved in your new progression goals.

Be ready to answer questions about your spec/glyph choises and how you would change those for different fights.

Back when I was still raid leading I wasn't really watching at people's progression but how their gear/spec was set up, and I was looking for a person who did their research and was open to comments and suggestions.

I hope this helps you with your guild search even a little bit and good luck!
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
Make sure your at the Ilvl to raid, Make sure your fully chanted, gemmed and reforged. make sure your professions are leveled to max.

yes you want to know your DPS numbers, but also do not expect to get in a top progression guild, you really have to prove yourself to these gulds, by that you have had to have history of raiding, and raiding current content for them to take you seriously.

If your going to raid 25 mans, make sure your computer can handle it. If you do not have a head set and working mic ,, get one now.

I would wait to down load a voice chat option, vent is still popular but Many raiding guilds are using Mumble

Start running LFR

I do not want to rain on your parade, but it is not going to be easy to find a guild right now, this is Mid tier, witha a major patch expected to Drop that is going to have some major changes and a Major new raid coming as well. You may need to look for a guild that like you is just starting out. You may need to change servers and factions. I wish you luck
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90 Troll Druid
20120
While I'm not so much a GM or Raid Leader, I can offer you the advice you seek.

Like others have said, fully Gem/Enchant/Reforge your Gear to the best of your ability to show you know your Class and what Stats are good. Run LFR and record your own CombatLogs. Remember to use your Defensive Cooldowns aswell as DPS Cooldowns. I know LFR is a joke but if you show you know when to use a Defensive CD at a specific point in a fight then it's good. Also not standing in avoidable damage is good too and you can see this in Logs.

Having your own Flasks, Potions, and Food is also good going into a new Guild. You show that you come prepared. Remember to Pre-Pot before a pull and at some point later in the fight usually with Bloodlust/Heroism/Time Warp and Cooldowns.

Remember when you apply to a Guild you're making a first impression so make it a good one. Show you know your Class and want to play to the best of your ability to help the Guild progress further. Imagine it like you're applying to a job or having a job interview because a lot of Guilds do their recruitment process the same way as real life.

Finally good luck in finding a Guild. ^_^
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80 Goblin Hunter
10975
Besides all the good points above, being honest and sincere is something I would seek for my guild. Sometimes it isn't about skills (not all, but some), you will be raiding with people for a long time and you will get to know them, nice and pleasant people are always fun to raid with.

Other than that, make sure try hard with your ilvl, document your performance, have a rough estimate of how much you dps/heal on a boss with little mechanics. Normally, the people recruiting and are serious about raiding know how much can a class do with certain ilvl.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17295
I just did what you're looking to do. With hardly any raiding experience, I had the stack decked against me when searching for a new home. But it's possible. Many guilds will outright dismiss your application because you don't have the progression. There's no way to avoid this unfortunate result. Eventually, though, you'll encounter a GM or RL who's perceptive enough to look beyond the progression.

1) Be realistic about what you want to do. You will probably have to join another server and possibly switch factions (I had to do both) to find a suitable guild. If you want to stick on your server, you may have to assume an undesirable role - such as DPS when you're looking to tank. If you don't mind moving servers, then visit the Guild Recruitment forum here as well as WoWProgress.com to see who's recruiting.

1) Gem/reforge etc. Remember, you don't have experience. You're going to sell yourself on dedication, knowledge, and talent. Failing to meet basic raiding expectations means you're lazy (not dedicated) or just ignorant. No one wants an idiot.

2) Be literate. GMs like applications where you're not a moron. Use examples where applicable. If an application asks, "Are you OK with managing difficult mechanics," don't just say "Yes," because seriously who's going to respond no? Use an example of when you were tasked with handling a mechanic, or when you volunteered to do so.

3) Log. Like the others here have suggested, you need to demonstrate that you're competent. If your guild doesn't log (my previous one really didn't), then you're going to need to do so when running LFR. Don't be lazy! Competent evaluators will call you out if you're slacking (I've read many other public applications, too). Again this comes back to the dedication thing.

4) Be knowledgeable. About anything relevant. Your class, current tier content (to the extent that you've experienced it), game mechanics, addons. Wherever possible on questions, let them know that you know what you're talking about. When an application asks, "Do you use addons?" you don't respond - again - with a simple "Yes, I use DBM." You say, "I use several addons, such as WeakAuras to monitor my Sacred Shield uptime, Bartender4 for efficient keybinding...etc"

5) Be available. You need to find a good fit. Don't apply if you cannot meet raid times. Find a guild where you can raid pretty much all the time for their schedule. That's a big plus, I've found.

6) Keep in mind: you're interviewing THEM as much as they're interviewing YOU, especially when you consider that you're the one who's going to pony up cash to transfer. I know, you want to raid progression content, but don't force the action. Don't switch servers for a guild that's going to put you on its B squad just because it MAY put you on its progression team. Don't switch for a guild whose times you dislike. Trust me, there are tons of guilds out there who'll take you on if you're skilled. When I accepted a guild offer, at the time I had two other offers from guilds - both with comparable progression. It takes time, but you'll get there if you're good.
Edited by Trystero on 2/24/2013 9:41 AM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
17225
Your situation is not that bad or desperate. Most guilds, excepting the top-tier ones, recruit people who are less progressed than they are. Lack of experience is not that damning, at least not to me. Years of raiding poorly is worse than having never raided.

As the GM/RL, I want to see a recruit who is

1) Gear min/maxed. This includes optimal gems, enchants, and reforge. I don't want to see an unenchanted blue or LFR piece because you think the enchant is too expensive and that you might get a better piece after you start raiding. I am not here to give you gear. If you are too cheap to optimize your gear, then you are not the raider I am looking for.

2) Good attitude. If your gear/class/role is what I am looking for and your character audit is a pass, then you will join us for a run or talk with us on mumble. I want to get the impression that you can handle criticism, and that you are willing to follow instructions. I don't want to hear things like "I am good at this game, I don't need to do [insert whatever it is I want you to do]". Everyone in my raid is a good player... I can guarantee you that, but everyone has to do what they are told or else things won't work. You not being in mumble is a big disservice to everyone else. You not being able to talk on mumble is also a big disservice, arguably less so. You not bothering to at least read the dungeon journal and know the boss's basic abilities before the pull is a big disservice. If we ask you to do these things, they need to be done.

3) Meet all requirements. This includes getting yourself to the server/faction on your own time and expense. This also means showing up with pots/flasks/food. Sometimes we provide these, sometimes we don't... but you are always expected to come prepared.

I can tell you now that all of the people I recruited in MoP (approximately 6-7 people by now) were much less progressed than my raid when I got them, and all of them so far have worked out well, because I ensure they satisfied the above three requirements.
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85 Tauren Warrior
9525
I've read all the replies so far, but this reply:

Your situation is not that bad or desperate. Most guilds, excepting the top-tier ones, recruit people who are less progressed than they are. Lack of experience is not that damning, at least not to me. Years of raiding poorly is worse than having never raided.

As the GM/RL, I want to see a recruit who is

1) Gear min/maxed. This includes optimal gems, enchants, and reforge. I don't want to see an unenchanted blue or LFR piece because you think the enchant is too expensive and that you might get a better piece after you start raiding. I am not here to give you gear. If you are too cheap to optimize your gear, then you are not the raider I am looking for.

2) Good attitude. If your gear/class/role is what I am looking for and your character audit is a pass, then you will join us for a run or talk with us on mumble. I want to get the impression that you can handle criticism, and that you are willing to follow instructions. I don't want to hear things like "I am good at this game, I don't need to do [insert whatever it is I want you to do]". Everyone in my raid is a good player... I can guarantee you that, but everyone has to do what they are told or else things won't work. You not being in mumble is a big disservice to everyone else. You not being able to talk on mumble is also a big disservice, arguably less so. You not bothering to at least read the dungeon journal and know the boss's basic abilities before the pull is a big disservice. If we ask you to do these things, they need to be done.

3) Meet all requirements. This includes getting yourself to the server/faction on your own time and expense. This also means showing up with pots/flasks/food. Sometimes we provide these, sometimes we don't... but you are always expected to come prepared.

I can tell you now that all of the people I recruited in MoP (approximately 6-7 people by now) were much less progressed than my raid when I got them, and all of them so far have worked out well, because I ensure they satisfied the above three requirements.


Was the one that stood out to me the most, considering you're the GM of the top guild on your server.

Regardless though, I am enchanted, gemmed, and reforged to the best of my ability and I've always felt I can click with raid members. It's the idea of lack of raiding progression is holding me back from being part of a more progressed guild. However, like I said with the replies given, it gives me hope that it can be done and I'll review all of your tips and see how else I can improve myself not only on my character, but as a player in general. :)
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90 Draenei Priest
7875
There is a lot of good advice in this thread.

Another thing to consider, especially when starting out... many decent guilds have 2nd teams or alt/reserve (non-core) raids. My guild, for instance, runs weekend raids every weekend for non-core team members and I often recruit people specifically for those raids. If your server has any guilds like that try applying to them. As long as you've done what everybody has said above (knowing your class, proper gearing, research, a good attitude, etc) a GM is more likely to take a chance on you for one of those raid groups. Then, once you have experience, you can possibly move on to a core team spot.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
02/24/2013 11:13 AMPosted by Minotaur
It's the idea of lack of raiding progression is holding me back from being part of a more progressed guild.


As I said you may not be able to gain enterance into the more progressed guilds. They have their pick of recruits. I am not saying do not apply because they may see something in you that they really really like and can over look your lack of progression.

It maybe that you can gain enterance into a more progression guild by taking a bench slot and when your not raiding with the progression team, you raid with the alt team. This way you get some progression raiding, and you get your foot in the door, often when a permenant slot opens up if they have a good bench raider, that spot will got to him first.. Might be worth a consideration. If you consider this, it is a good idea to look for a player who is raiding with your class and see if he could take you under his wing and give you a few pointers now and then.

I always did this.. No matter what the toon I was raiding on I found the player who was tops in that class/role in the guild and asked him for pointers. It always helped me tremedously

One other thing you could do is be available to go on the guild farm runs.. for you it will not be farming, but you will kill two birds with one stone, learn the ropes of raiding and letting them get to know you in a less critical setting.
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90 Human Warlock
7245
As a GM . I have to agree w the posters above me. My guild is not a raiding one, we mainly stick to lfr so we can get some gear going for us and get ready to do normal mode stuff.

We do want to be prepared for it, though.

When I recruit, I look for the following and i am not focused on someone's progression when my own progress and the guild's progress is non existent.

* attitude - players who have good attitude, have some sense of humor as we joke around while we do our thing but are ready to get down to business when it's time

* contribution- players who contribute to guild small or big ... Helping fellow guildies. Are they willing to help the guild progress.

Gear is upgradable and if we need to run dungeons to get geared its a non issue.

I've had past experiences where i was pretty much on my own and its a feeling i hate

Best of luck to you
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90 Tauren Druid
13815
You said you don't have the experience, so a "more serious" raiding guild should not take you based on any application.

So, what you must do is PuG; partly for the experience but mainly to show off. Wait for a guild short a player or two that is PuG'ing the last spot or two and join them. Do your job and do it right; this isn't about gear or even the group your with. This is about reputation building (showing that you're good) and experience building.

Then maybe the group your with offers you a spot, or you can use that group as a reference when you apply later to a different guild.

This is all assuming you know exactly what you're doing; if someone has to pull you aside about your spec, glyphs, gear, etc etc, ignore the raids and work on you. Otherwise your wasting the time not only of the group who PuG'd you, but your own time because your making a less than desirable impression.
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90 Orc Warrior
17225


Was the one that stood out to me the most, considering you're the GM of the top guild on your server.

Regardless though, I am enchanted, gemmed, and reforged to the best of my ability and I've always felt I can click with raid members. It's the idea of lack of raiding progression is holding me back from being part of a more progressed guild. However, like I said with the replies given, it gives me hope that it can be done and I'll review all of your tips and see how else I can improve myself not only on my character, but as a player in general. :)


Another thing I want to add is that we definitely don't mind teaching people how to raid (as in how to do the encounters... not basics like 'standing in fire is bad'... that you should already know), but we don't care for teaching people how to play their class. In my raid we have very little class overlap (we have two DKs and two monks, other than that no two of any class) and definitely no role overlap among the same class (one DK is tank the other DPS, one monk is tank the other healer). Thus it is very unlikely that you will find a 'teacher' in the group. It is up to you to figure out how to play your toon and then bring forth the performance necessary.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10055
02/24/2013 04:44 PMPosted by Elgunaz
but we don't care for teaching people how to play their class.


This is so very very true. Know your class, know your offspec as well as your mainspec. Your offspec may not be as geared if you are optimizing your mainspec, but you should know the basics of your rotation and how to optimize what you have.

Also, pug. Raids require a certain amount of practice on a particular boss, and the more practice you can get with different mechanics the better off you will be. Don't be picky, just keep trying until someone brings you along. If you make mistakes then figure them out and try again. Be persistent about getting in there and learning.

Often there is not just a gear gap but a knowledge gap. Right now I would recommend reading up as much as you can on 5.2 raids, watching videos, get prepared for the fights, and take any opportunity to raid 5.0 or (soon) 5.2 raids you can.
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90 Orc Hunter
10035
Try working up the ladder.

I can tell you right now no one, and i mean no one started out at the top raid guild, and very few ever started in a mid pack raid guild. I'm not telling you to go guild hopping, but don't be afraid to app to some guild that isn't much further along than your current progress.

Past progress is huge, while my guild doesn't throw out an app just because you arent progressed, but if your logs are also sub par you will get passed over, Progression and logs are huge, and and amazing one from those can save you, logs are > progression though.

And lastly don't app somewhere you think you may not like the people, nothing worse than raiding with people you are happy to raid with. completely ruins the experience
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85 Tauren Warrior
9525
Haven't posted in a few days, but just wanted to say thank you all very much for your replies. I already know what I'll be doing soon, and I hope to climb the ladder someday. :)
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90 Human Warrior
16700
First piece of advice I would give you is to drop the casual/hardcore monikers from your discussion. They are both loaded terms with positive and negative connotations. However they are both so ambiguous that they just aren't worth using.

A better idea is to set goals for yourself. For example, you could decide that you want to find a guild that raids 3 nights a week, 3 hours each night. To some that is casual, to others that is hardcore. But regardless of the label, its 3 nights a week, 3 hours each night.

Next, you'll want to look at progression. Do you want to be raiding heroic modes or just regular? Do you want to be average server progression or do you want to clear all content each tier or are you so far behind that you just want to down a few bosses every week, regardless of full clears and putting in time to wipe and learn?

Once you've decided what kind of raiding you want to do, look for guilds that fall within those parameters. Then pug into them. Always, always, always run with a guild first before you commit to joining that guild. You want to make sure you can fit in and run with that group.

Also, visit sites like noxxic.com, wow-heroes, elitistjerks, askmrrobot to get some ideas on min/maxing (which you can take to any degree you want) and where you stand compared to your competition in gearing. IE: other people who are potential recruits for that same spot in a guild you are going for.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
I do not want to rain on your parade, but it is not going to be easy to find a guild right now, this is Mid tier, witha a major patch expected to Drop that is going to have some major changes and a Major new raid coming as well. You may need to look for a guild that like you is just starting out. You may need to change servers and factions. I wish you luck


Actually, this isn't so bad really. What I'd do is find what guilds you're potentially interested in that have times that line up with yours. Then reach out to those groups to find out if they are doing alt runs (which you'd probably be at the same gear level) or get your name on their Sub list. That way, if you're around, they can reach out to you to fill in should they be short anybody.

And then PuG the raids, take your own combat log and upload it to world of logs. That way you can start looking at your own rotation. Make sure you get into the habit of Pre-Potting and using a second pot appropriately. Raiding takes money, so you'll have to be sure you're used to spending.
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90 Human Warlock
7245
Also another thing.. I didn't see it mentioned and if someone did my apologies for missing it..

Use open raid. Sign up for events, some of theirs are guild recruitment events.

Show them what you can do.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10260
Way too much reading here.

1) Be familiar and sound familiar with Elitist Jerks website.
2) Do everything right on paper (World of Logs, Armoury).
3) Go in confident and wanting to be the best.
4) Keep your drama at a 0.00 value.

You'll be fine.
Edited by Quelthanas on 3/3/2013 1:31 PM PST
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