What happened to Dual-wielding?

90 Human Paladin
6880
I was checking out a lot of the high rated frost dks, and not one of them dual-wielded. They all used 2 handers. So my question is did dual-wielding frost lose it's viability, mainly in pvp?
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90 Human Death Knight
13615
DPS is my offspec, and I wouldn't consider myself high end as far as dps is concerned. I have 6-7 pieces of 502-509 dps gear and the rest is just my tank gear which ranges from 496-517.

I find I do considerably more dps with my fully upgraded normal Shin'ka (504 2h axe) than with 2x Kilrak (1h sha touched sword. one is 496 and the other 483).

Obviously the higher item level should make a difference, but it's a huge difference. I do about 70k dps 2h Frost, and drop to barely over 50k when I try to DW Frost.

A better dps set that is fully regemmed and reforged correctly could put DW ahead of 2h, but my tank gear is actually better suited for DW than it is for 2h, so I would have expected all of my mastery to make DW do better.

There is also the problem that 2 good 1h's is a lot harder to come across than 1 good 2h. Either way your choices are limitted to 1 weapon drop from Elegon, and 1 drop from Sha.
Edited by Stormdk on 2/26/2013 9:31 AM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15245
His context is for pvp. Only a few things I can think of is. If you're only using pvp items. It costs more conquest to be DW than 2 handed. If you're playing a game of who kills who being 2 handed tends to mean more health and at least as performance goes They are close enough that you're not hurting yourself greatly to be 2 handed over DW. Not to mention being DW almost cries to get the 3k Mastery Buff from others to perform while 2 handed Frost is less hindered by it compared. I.E. More solo dps than DW. If you're 1 on 1 or in small numbers you're likely better off as 2 handed than DW.

Just off the top of my head anyway mechanics wise.
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90 Human Death Knight
0
02/26/2013 08:51 AMPosted by Vindiction
I was checking out a lot of the high rated frost dks, and not one of them dual-wielded. They all used 2 handers. So my question is did dual-wielding frost lose it's viability, mainly in pvp?


I'm pretty sure the only reason there is less dual wielding frost in pvp is because 2 handed can do a lot of damage really fast with obliterates. But I don't know for sure since I don't play dual wielding.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15245
I was checking out a lot of the high rated frost dks, and not one of them dual-wielded. They all used 2 handers. So my question is did dual-wielding frost lose it's viability, mainly in pvp?


I'm pretty sure the only reason there is less dual wielding frost in pvp is because 2 handed can do a lot of damage really fast with obliterates. But I don't know for sure since I don't play dual wielding.


Goes both ways. DW Frost in melee has Frost strike hitting as frost damage on top of HB's. But yes 3 obliterates fast plus decently heavy frost strikes. One of the differences is just that Obliterate is effected by armor while DW Frost's master frost is mostly frost damage and not effected by armor. Apples to oranges. But 3 heavy hits fast versus a ton of frost damage non stop. But 2 handed does quite a bit more damage solo unbuffed while dual wield is ahead with all buffs and gear over time. The patch will bandaid to make 2 handed closer but it's still a decent gap. Like a higher geared 2 handed Frost losing to a lesser geared DW Frost in PvE.
Edited by Tor on 2/26/2013 9:56 AM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
0
02/26/2013 09:55 AMPosted by Tor
Goes both ways. DW Frost in melee has Frost strike hitting as frost damage on top of HB's. But yes 3 obliterates fast plus decently heavy frost strikes. One of the differences is just that Obliterate is effected by armor while DW Frost's master frost is mostly frost damage and not effected by armor. Apples to oranges. But 3 heavy hits fast versus a ton of frost damage non stop. But 2 handed does quite a bit more damage solo unbuffed while dual wield is ahead with all buffs and gear over time. The patch will bandaid to make 2 handed closer but it's still a decent gap. Like a higher geared 2 handed Frost losing to a lesser geared DW Frost in PvE.


Plus people like seeing high numbers so 2 handed usually hits higher, but to bad people don't realize hitting higher doesn't mean they are doing more damage.

I really wish they would bring 2 handed up to par with masterfrost in pve, I haven't managed to get a single one hander from lfr yet otherwise I would not be 2 handed.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15245
Patch is coming likely next week. That will help slightly but I doublt it will completely over come the scaling of Masterfrost. Time will tell. Not that it's so huge that you'd want to sit a 2 handed Frost. But again in the context of PvP. If I was in a one on one the only thing that DW prolly brings is having people less interested in approaching you cause of howling blast spam but even a 2 handed can do that in a sense. But that difference in health alone can help. Though I think the greatest incentive to not be dual wield is the expense of 2 1 handers via conquest compared to a 2 hander.
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90 Undead Death Knight
10720
Necrotic strike doesn't hit with both weapons while DWing. Thats my reason.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
6960
02/26/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Lifenite
Necrotic strike doesn't hit with both weapons while DWing. Thats my reason.


That shouldn't matter. Either way, you need to give up damage to get NS in there.

Math time! (Calculations do not account for armor and cooldowns).

2H:

230% base damage from Obliterate

40% extra from MotFW, meaning Obliterate now does 322% weapon damage.

Add and extra 10% from MotFW other effect. Obliterate now does 354.2% weapon damage.

Add another 12.5% from each disease. Since Frost Fever is almost always on the target as frost, Obliterate as 2H typically does 398.5% weapon damage. Factor in Blood Plague, and Obliterate now does 442% weapon damage.

Malevolent Gladiator's Greatsword does 15150 weapon damage. 15150 x 442% = 66963 damage. If it's a crit from KM, Obliterate deals 133,926 physical damage.

Assuming you and the target are in full Dreadful gear, factor in about 60% resilience and about 15% power. 133,926 + 15% = 154,015 damage. B/c of resil, Obliterate on hits for 40% damage, so 154,015 x 40% = 61606 weapon damage.

Therefore, Obliterate does roughly 30k damage per rune.

Necrotic Strike deals 150% weapon damage, increased by 10% from MotFW, so it deals 165% weapon damage. 165% x 15150 = 24997 damage. Modified by your own PvP power and your opponent's resil, 24997 + 15% = 28746 damage. 28746 x 40% = 11498 damage.

Therefore, Necrotic Strike deals 11.5k damage per rune.

DW

DW's primary source of damage is Howling Blast, whose damage is tougher to calculate do to its attack power equation, and the fact that its damage varies depending on mastery, but let's assume a typical HB does 10k damage against its primary target. 10k per rune.

Malevolent Gladiator's Slicer does 8115 maximum weapon damage. 150% x 8115 = 12173 damage. Modified by pvp power and resil, 12173 +15% = 13400 damage. 13400 x 40% = 5600 damage.

As DW, NS does 5600 damage per rune against players.

As we can see from the math, 2H actually gives up about twice as much to use NS than DW, though as your gear level goes up and the damage of HB increases, DW gives up more.

The point is a stronger NS can't be the reason more people take 2H.

02/26/2013 09:49 AMPosted by Tor
It costs more conquest to be DW than 2 handed


This is no longer true. 1-handers now cost 1750 conquest, meaning the cost to DW is the same as the cost to go 2H.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17665
3/4ths of "high rated" players diseappeared a couple weeks ago when they cut win trading (Over 60% of gladiator level ranks were reset or banned), so it shifted the audience quite a bit.
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90 Human Death Knight
12270
Another thing is that DW takes ramp up time to get to the nice damage. I switched to 2h in arenas because it's all about killing each other as fast as you can. And in that game 2h does a lot better than DW. As a frost Dk in arenas you mostly get targeted first so you wanna do as much damage as you can before you die.
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90 Human Warrior
5625
well according to the gladiator DKs, 2handers gives better burst. The DPS in dw is higher but the short window burst potential of 2hander gives it the lead.

As for necrotic, i was under the belief that necrotic was more of an UH thing but i could be wrong (i dont play DK this info is just form sites like arenajunkies and skill-capped)
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90 Human Death Knight
8860
DPS is my offspec, and I wouldn't consider myself high end as far as dps is concerned. I have 6-7 pieces of 502-509 dps gear and the rest is just my tank gear which ranges from 496-517.

I find I do considerably more dps with my fully upgraded normal Shin'ka (504 2h axe) than with 2x Kilrak (1h sha touched sword. one is 496 and the other 483).

Obviously the higher item level should make a difference, but it's a huge difference. I do about 70k dps 2h Frost, and drop to barely over 50k when I try to DW Frost.

A better dps set that is fully regemmed and reforged correctly could put DW ahead of 2h, but my tank gear is actually better suited for DW than it is for 2h, so I would have expected all of my mastery to make DW do better.

There is also the problem that 2 good 1h's is a lot harder to come across than 1 good 2h. Either way your choices are limitted to 1 weapon drop from Elegon, and 1 drop from Sha.


I really question how some people get in to heroic raiding. First off there are 3 1h weapons, the best two for Dw Frost is the one from Amber Shaper and from Sha of Fear (not because they are higher Ilvl but because they give mastery). You are most likely playing Master frost incorrectly if you are pulling 50k as DW and 70K as 2h. Also weapons make a huge difference but seeing as I have 2 LFR weapons and pull around or even more then 70k dps...
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90 Troll Death Knight
13785
2h does better burst through harder Obliterates, but in every other respect DW is better.

This is because DW's main damage comes from Frost Strike, so they are free to use their runes for utility instead of damage. DW can spam IT dispel, get decent NS stacks going, and use chains and focus chains more often. Using Blood Tap for the death runes is particularly effective.

Also, when a DK gets peeled, they need to burn runes to get to their target. This means that when they get on target again, they'll have few runes and plenty of RP, which means DW is doing immediate high damage, and 2h is doing lower damage while it waits for runes to come back up. DW will also naturally have better uptime, as when they get peeled, they're more likely to have runes up to shut down their target's mobility, and when they're on target, they can easily spare runes to keep their target immobile.

For DK's, runes equal utility. When your damage and utility both come from the same source, you're gimping yourself. DW has better sustained damage, better utility, and better uptime.
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90 Gnome Death Knight
10170
02/26/2013 03:35 PMPosted by Karaahl
The point is a stronger NS can't be the reason more people take 2H.


If you are using necro for the damage it does, you are doing it wrong.

02/26/2013 10:28 PMPosted by Allucia
2h does better burst through harder Obliterates, but in every other respect DW is better.


This could not be less true. Although, the burst numbers for 2H are suspect. In a perfect world, you can count on 3 Oblits, but in this world, you had to CoI twice and then Strangulate your target and you have 1 Oblit left in the chamber.
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90 Orc Death Knight
17015
They made Necro strike cost a death rune instead of an UH rune so the only damaging ability you really have left to use UH runes with consistently is oblit, and with the threat of thassarian change it makes it so your frost strike will always hit harder than your oblit as DW..therefore you're not getting the best burst damage output with DW comparative to 2h frost which you use oblit for KM procs and dump with FS.
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90 Human Death Knight
6665
i enjoy the high-speed game of whack-a-rune that only DW can provide.
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90 Human Death Knight
9835
02/26/2013 03:35 PMPosted by Karaahl
Necrotic strike doesn't hit with both weapons while DWing. Thats my reason.


That shouldn't matter. Either way, you need to give up damage to get NS in there.

Math time! (Calculations do not account for armor and cooldowns).

2H:

230% base damage from Obliterate

40% extra from MotFW, meaning Obliterate now does 322% weapon damage.

Add and extra 10% from MotFW other effect. Obliterate now does 354.2% weapon damage.

Add another 12.5% from each disease. Since Frost Fever is almost always on the target as frost, Obliterate as 2H typically does 398.5% weapon damage. Factor in Blood Plague, and Obliterate now does 442% weapon damage.

Malevolent Gladiator's Greatsword does 15150 weapon damage. 15150 x 442% = 66963 damage. If it's a crit from KM, Obliterate deals 133,926 physical damage.

Assuming you and the target are in full Dreadful gear, factor in about 60% resilience and about 15% power. 133,926 + 15% = 154,015 damage. B/c of resil, Obliterate on hits for 40% damage, so 154,015 x 40% = 61606 weapon damage.

Therefore, Obliterate does roughly 30k damage per rune.

Necrotic Strike deals 150% weapon damage, increased by 10% from MotFW, so it deals 165% weapon damage. 165% x 15150 = 24997 damage. Modified by your own PvP power and your opponent's resil, 24997 + 15% = 28746 damage. 28746 x 40% = 11498 damage.

Therefore, Necrotic Strike deals 11.5k damage per rune.

DW

DW's primary source of damage is Howling Blast, whose damage is tougher to calculate do to its attack power equation, and the fact that its damage varies depending on mastery, but let's assume a typical HB does 10k damage against its primary target. 10k per rune.

Malevolent Gladiator's Slicer does 8115 maximum weapon damage. 150% x 8115 = 12173 damage. Modified by pvp power and resil, 12173 +15% = 13400 damage. 13400 x 40% = 5600 damage.

As DW, NS does 5600 damage per rune against players.

As we can see from the math, 2H actually gives up about twice as much to use NS than DW, though as your gear level goes up and the damage of HB increases, DW gives up more.

The point is a stronger NS can't be the reason more people take 2H.

It costs more conquest to be DW than 2 handed


This is no longer true. 1-handers now cost 1750 conquest, meaning the cost to DW is the same as the cost to go 2H.


but as 2h you only have to upgrade one weapon twice. rather than 2 weapons twice as DW.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
14490
2h performs better when stuck in Blood Presence.

At the highest rating this season, DKs spend a lot of time in Blood Presence.

I, personally, enjoy the freedom dual-wielding provides. 2h is shackled to Obliterate. As dual-wield, you give up far less damage to use Necrotic Strike (it doesn't matter that it doesn't hit with the off-hand - 2h gives up more damage because it NEEDS Obliterate to do its damage, as someone else already proved), spam Icy Touch (dispel), or use Howling Blast (ranged nuke, AoE, ranged snare via Chillbains). Even Soul Reaper is more useful, if you can pull it off.

But 2h has better burst with less set-up, and, again, loses less damage when in Blood Presence.

Upgrading weapons is an extra cost, yes - but it wouldn't have stopped people if dual-wield was optimal. Look at WW monks. There aren't many of them - but the PvP Windwalkers all go dual-wield. You'd think that the difference would be near-non-existent - and it really is way smaller than the difference between dual-wield and 2h Frost DKs. They still go dual-wield.
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