Remove tanking form Dungeons

90 Orc Warrior
10110
I haven't been a tank in a while. I'm just a DPS who happens to have the mobs' attention at any given point in time.
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90 Night Elf Druid
5485
02/24/2013 12:13 PMPosted by Hallëkk
Upping valor as suggested by Ipwnwitfeet is not bad, an econcomic incentive to run more dungeons


Actually, I think it would be a bad idea. The main limit on how many dungeons I run (almost always tanking) right now is the valor cap -- once I cap, I stop tanking for the week. The once per day bonus means I'm usually going to run at least one dungeon if I log on at all, but after that, LFR and once per day double valor is enough that I don't need to do many more than that. With more valor per run I would cap (and stop) even faster.

It might work better to give an incentive *other* than valor, but they already tried that and clearly it isn't enough. Making tanks immune to the valor cap (or giving them bonus valor per run that doesn't count toward the cap, or something like that) would probably work, but be a bit game breaking.
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Being a good tank takes practice. If you remove the need for a tank in heroics where are these new tanks going to learn? Are you going to take a tank into a raid that has never tanked anything before? I sure wouldn't.

I think the large number of bad tanks in LFD is a direct result of leveling dungeons being too easy and not really requiring a tank. The learning curve has to come in somewhere. It currently comes in during heroics. You can move that learning curve by changing the tuning of various levels of the game but it has to come in somewhere.

Content tuned to not require a tank doesn't leave much room for variety and lacks challenge. Look at leveling dungeons and scenerios. I think they're fun, but they aren't challenging at all. I would hate to see raid difficulty mirror that.


This

Recruiting to fill a raid spot when your tank is on vacation or otherwise in dispose would be worse than it is already.
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90 Pandaren Monk
18865
funny you say that .. but when I pull 90k dps as a tank and the 3 dpsers combined pull 80k dps ..

I think they are no longer necessary ... not me.

I count on my fingers (and I do lfd 1-2x every day) how many dpsers deal more dmg than me. And there are many fingers left.
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90 Pandaren Monk
10280
funny you say that .. but when I pull 90k dps as a tank and the 3 dpsers combined pull 80k dps ..

I think they are no longer necessary ... not me.

I count on my fingers (and I do lfd 1-2x every day) how many dpsers deal more dmg than me. And there are many fingers left.


Did the holidy boss a few days ago, and activated the first boss. Started into my rotation and looked up and we only had the wandering guy left. And he died as soon as I did a leg sweep on him.

Three dps toons did 160k, 120k and 120k respectively. I about fainted.

Then I did my daily dungeon run for my valor and a satchel and rogue was pulling 8k, mage was doing 18k and dk was doing 17k. My world was put back into proper order.
Edited by Chuin on 2/25/2013 1:25 PM PST
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90 Draenei Warrior
11170
This
Is
The
Stupidest
Thing
Ive
Ever
Read
Edited by Mybackhurtz on 2/25/2013 1:48 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
10130
There are some fixes -
- non-tanks take more damage and go splat nice and quick


Have you forgotten Cata already? At least heroics are so easy now that they aren't an impediment to leveling alts, just the rep grind is.

Its interesting to watch folks come back to the game at Christmas time and have leveled 2-3 toons to 90 already. Its a lot easier with less traffic in the zones and friends helping you with advice on where to go, how to gear up etc.. That rep grind though, annoys most people. Thankfully, its not that needed unless you absolutely feel you need the gear it offers (which lasts until you get multiple drops of the same item in a month of LFR/Sha) to raid or you're a completist for rep grinds or mounts.

I finally hit 90 with my third toon yesterday and those rep bonuses sure are nice.
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90 Orc Death Knight
16185
Started into my rotation and looked up and we only had the wandering guy left. And he died as soon as I did a leg sweep on him.


The embellishment here is just godlike
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90 Dwarf Warrior
9275
funny you say that .. but when I pull 90k dps as a tank and the 3 dpsers combined pull 80k dps ..

I think they are no longer necessary ... not me.

I count on my fingers (and I do lfd 1-2x every day) how many dpsers deal more dmg than me. And there are many fingers left.


The problem with this is the vengeance mechanic. You can't stack a group with 4 tanks and a healer, and have all of them doing that kind of DPS. Someone is going to have the vengeance, and everyone else is going to enter wet-noodle mode.

Can the argument be made that a tank and a healer could just as effectively duo the instance? Sure, but it will take longer; based on your numbers, about twice as long.

Additionally, how many DPS classes actually have good AOE DPS capacity? I honestly have no idea if this is still the case, but my understanding was that Blizz had done away with ERMAHGERDAOEDEEPS when they redesigned for Cata.

We all know that Blizzard balances primarily based on two things: Raid performance and PvP. Whether tanks outperform DPS in instances in terms of overall damage done in 5-mans is not a consideration, and neither is whether DPS are able to tank those same instances. They just re-tooled a bunch of old content for Cata to improve the flow during leveling and people were irritated that they'd spend time revisiting old content; I can guarantee that they won't be going back to retune old content again any time soon.

In my opinion, it's not that Blizzard needs to get rid of the requirement to have a tank in low-level dungeon queues, or make low-level dungeons more punishing for DPS who try to tank. Instead, Blizzard should do away with the mechanics associated with DPS meters and force players to judge each other's performance by the only thing that really matters: did we finish this instance and manage to have fun while doing it?
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90 Human Warrior
12850
02/24/2013 06:14 PMPosted by Feanorion


Resurrection spells should kill the character using the spell; after all, we all know that life force has to come from SOMEwhere...


Instead of the resurrecting character, take the life force of the dps with the most damage taken.


Now that's an idea I can get behind.
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90 Pandaren Monk
18865
funny you say that .. but when I pull 90k dps as a tank and the 3 dpsers combined pull 80k dps ..

I think they are no longer necessary ... not me.

I count on my fingers (and I do lfd 1-2x every day) how many dpsers deal more dmg than me. And there are many fingers left.


The problem with this is the vengeance mechanic. You can't stack a group with 4 tanks and a healer, and have all of them doing that kind of DPS. Someone is going to have the vengeance, and everyone else is going to enter wet-noodle mode.

Can the argument be made that a tank and a healer could just as effectively duo the instance? Sure, but it will take longer; based on your numbers, about twice as long.

Additionally, how many DPS classes actually have good AOE DPS capacity? I honestly have no idea if this is still the case, but my understanding was that Blizz had done away with ERMAHGERDAOEDEEPS when they redesigned for Cata.

We all know that Blizzard balances primarily based on two things: Raid performance and PvP. Whether tanks outperform DPS in instances in terms of overall damage done in 5-mans is not a consideration, and neither is whether DPS are able to tank those same instances. They just re-tooled a bunch of old content for Cata to improve the flow during leveling and people were irritated that they'd spend time revisiting old content; I can guarantee that they won't be going back to retune old content again any time soon.

In my opinion, it's not that Blizzard needs to get rid of the requirement to have a tank in low-level dungeon queues, or make low-level dungeons more punishing for DPS who try to tank. Instead, Blizzard should do away with the mechanics associated with DPS meters and force players to judge each other's performance by the only thing that really matters: did we finish this instance and manage to have fun while doing it?


My argument is not about vengeance.

Good players from any class can pull between 80-130k on 5 man bosses. I had groups where I was the last on dps with ~100k dps. Some trashs I did 180k where the dpsers pulled up to 200k (aoeing the entire room of those blood guys in scholo)

We did scholo, which is one of the longest instances in 8-9 minutes. I had SM runs that took 20 minutes and there's .. 5 pulls in the instance? Every pull felt like an eternity .. talking about a full minute to kill one pack.

I'm not asking every dps I group up to be raid-like dpsers. But saying tanks are not needed when dpsers pull 20k dps is imbecile to say the least. And it's not one or another guy .. the "average lfd players" (at least on my lfd region) does between 20-50k dps. I actually smile when I see a guy pulling 60-70k.

My 1st heroic with green/blue gear (manually entering the instance because me and several others didn't even had the ilvl to queue up) and everyone was pulling 50-70k.

some pugs do 20k .. I saw players as low as 14k dps, and the guy was actually playing, he wasn't afking, was using skills etc.

the instances and the capabilities of each class on actually doing dmg are very balanced. Balancing some advantages here and there, I've seen at least one player from each class pulling more than 80-100k dps overall in the instance (boss or trash).

And I don't agree at all with removing tank requirement.
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90 Night Elf Monk
8430
Good players from any class can pull between 80-130k on 5 man bosses. I had groups where I was the last on dps with ~100k dps. Some trashs I did 180k where the dpsers pulled up to 200k (aoeing the entire room of those blood guys in scholo)


I've geared up 3 DPS through LFD (WW monk, Aff Lock, Ele Shaman), and am working on a 4th now (SV Hunter). Unless you were using an iLvl 476 BOA staff weapon, there is no way you pulled 50K DPS on a single-target boss your first LFD run at 90. For a monk at that level, you are going to do about 30K DPS max with a staff, and close to 35k with dual wield. Tops.

Fresh 90's will do on average 30k, regardless of class/spec. With full 463 gear that will jump to around 50 to 70k. With full 476, around 70k to 90k. Anything above that and they are normal mode raid geared.

Heck, I can't even do 100K single target on this toon. Most I have ever seen is high 90's. So if you know of a 463 geared monk -- or any class -- who can do a sustained 100k DPS on a single target (with no damage buff gimmicks and no AOE), I'd love to meet them.

Edit: Those are all single target numbers. You can obviously pull much higher on AOE, but for AOE tanks win. This character has done a maximum of 300K AOE DPS in an instance. I've done up to 470K DPS tanking.
Edited by Lightning on 2/26/2013 4:20 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
6755
A holy paladin and me que up everyweek with me as Tank but I am in ret gear and ret spec. If you can get a healer of 485+ you can que as tank and just bum rush everything.

I only do about 60k DPS in my gear in heroics so its nothing, usually kill the boss after 90 seconds or so if its that long. Get a few DPSers from your guild and just face roll the place.
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90 Troll Druid
17355
They need to make it so tanking matters again in low level 5mans..
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15740
Can we remove the healers first?
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90 Pandaren Monk
18865

I've geared up 3 DPS through LFD (WW monk, Aff Lock, Ele Shaman), and am working on a 4th now (SV Hunter). Unless you were using an iLvl 476 BOA staff weapon, there is no way you pulled 50K DPS on a single-target boss your first LFD run at 90. For a monk at that level, you are going to do about 30K DPS max with a staff, and close to 35k with dual wield. Tops.


just because you haven't see. .. or don't know how to do .. don't say it's impossible. If your experience is LFD/LFR then yeh, it's quite rare to see people pulling high dps, but guess what.. they exist. You wont pull 70k dps on every pull, but yeh it's very doable. 40-50k is very normal to do on the gear you are allows to queue for heroics (which I believe is full normal blues). Hell, i've seen several players still wearing blues do that.

For me, around 50k is really what the average blue joe pulls. If the guy is doing 20k dps is not about gear (he wouldn't even be able to queue if he had the gear equivalent of this dps). He either doesn't know how to play at all, or just don't give a damn.

Heck, I can't even do 100K single target on this toon. Most I have ever seen is high 90's. So if you know of a 463 geared monk -- or any class -- who can do a sustained 100k DPS on a single target (with no damage buff gimmicks and no AOE), I'd love to meet them.


5 man bosses hardly last more than a minute .. cooldown uptime is really high because of that. I easily break 100k .. 130k dps single target depending on the boss. If the guy has normal raid gear and fingers, it's very easy to break the 100k mark on 5mans.

all classes have ~3 min cooldowns that allow them to zeg 5 man bosses really fast.

Again I'm not saying all players should be insanely skilled and do loads of dps. But people should do their jobs. Oh and plz, point out where I specifically said that people with 463 gear should do 100k dps.

I said that people starting heroics should be able to pull at least their 40-50k. But that's not what happens ... there's a lot of people that ALREADY have LFR gear (yes, I know what raid gear looks like) pulling 20k. I've seen this over and over and over again. It's extremelly normal to see players get lazy on pulls (like spam mindflay, spam blizzard and similars) once they realize they'll get carried.

Like I said, I don't mind. I'm well aware that I overgear lfd by miles. As long as people don't afk or cause unecessary trouble, I'm fine. I do it because raids are on a break and I wanna cap my valor anyway, but plz ... don't defend the lfg players. I know them very well. I used to cap icc badges on 4 characters back on icc, and the lfd playerbase is exactly the same nowadays.
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90 Night Elf Monk
8430
just because you haven't see. .. or don't know how to do .. don't say it's impossible. If your experience is LFD/LFR then yeh, it's quite rare to see people pulling high dps, but guess what.. they exist. You wont pull 70k dps on every pull, but yeh it's very doable. 40-50k is very normal to do on the gear you are allows to queue for heroics (which I believe is full normal blues). Hell, i've seen several players still wearing blues do that.


I can pull 70k on this toon, minimum, any pull short of Garalon and his stupid legs. It's geared. My hunter last night in iLvl 440? Best I could do was 27k. By the end of the night I got that up to 47k by bumping up 10 iLvls. Same spec, buffs, zones, etc. Only difference was gear (and gems/enchants). It's huge.

That said, I will agree. If a person in LFR can't do more than 50k DPS -- minimum -- they are mouth-breathers who deserve to be kicked.
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But I like tanking!
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90 Human Death Knight
8900
I predict the death of dodge and parry. But tank specs going away entirely and allowing damage specs to tank, will just raise healing requirements.

Also, there will be a void. Someone will devise a way to be very difficult to kill, re-creating him/herself as a true "tank". And tempting others to follow, thus creating "tanks" again.
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