Remove tanking form Dungeons

90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
02/26/2013 11:34 PMPosted by Guidance
But tank specs going away entirely and allowing damage specs to tank, will just raise healing requirements


You know OP is only talking about 5 mans right?

Where nothing even matters, you could literally put a chicken with its head cut off on your keyboard and clear a heroic.

OP is saying remove the requirement of a tank for them since they aren't needed anyway, and everyone else is just pointing out how everyone else is just as useless
Edited by Ðemolition on 2/27/2013 12:29 AM PST
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100 Draenei Shaman
9265
But tank specs going away entirely and allowing damage specs to tank, will just raise healing requirements


You know OP is only talking about 5 mans right?

Where nothing even matters, you could literally put a chicken with its head cut off on your keyboard and clear a heroic.

OP is saying remove the requirement of a tank for them since they aren't needed anyway, and everyone else is just pointing out how everyone else is just as useless


Oh I'm good at math I think I can do this equation!

Tanks = useless in 5 mans
Everyone else = useless in 5 mans
Tanks + everyone else = 5 mans
Therefore

Useless

That would mean that a discussion on 5 mans is useless!

Glad this thread cleared everything up for me. Best part is it can't be argued because I proved it with MATH!
Edited by Disagreed on 2/27/2013 3:00 AM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
12110
I don't see why this thread is causing so much controversy. Based on the title, he clearly just wants dpsers in tank forms to be removed.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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they need to make the dungeons harder not remove tanks they remove tanks and my account is closed
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I think tanking should be made more relevant.

You are not a tank and draw aggro? You die.

Makes things a lot more interesting and gets rid of those people that are all gogogogogogogogogogo.


they did that in cata but the crybabies came in here and whined that the dungeons were too hard and we have the current faceroll heroics of today.

The go go idiots got senarios they should stay in there and give us back our real heroics challenge modes are a joke I wont even go in because it reinforces the go go go bs thats been in this game since LFD came out.

Give us real progression in gear in dungeons again and stop this go go garbage.
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100 Pandaren Monk
19680
problem is you can't reasonably expect players from LFD to be good at working as a team.

For example, I had much easier and smooth runs by doing cata heroics on the 2nd day than I did any other time.

Because the players who reached lvl 85 on the 1st-2nd day, are the hardcore ones, and most of them know how to play their classes. And those instances while didn't require every single pull to have cc, it helped.

So I got 2-3 groups that I didn't have to say anything, I just said at the beginning of the instance, "square = mage, triangle = hunter, skull > X for dps".

So whenever I wanted a CC I simply marked and it was instantly CC'd, even pulls that got a little out of hand (patrols and such) they CC'd those extra mobs without me even having to ask. Not saying those are super top pve players, but at least they know what they are doing. I got several 5 man achievments on my 1st runs. We even remained in the same group to run several dungeons, had a lunch break etc.

Imo it was the most fun moment I had on 5 mans during cata (that and doing 5man achievments with guildies).

But the problem is: the regular joe doesn't know how to do that.

There's a lot of different problems as to why instances are faceroll (blues actually commented on those things):

on vanilla/BC:
- there were less things to do as well (5 mans, raids, and batlegrounds after a point ... and that's it), so it was only natural that those few things that were available, took longer.
- the game only had 60-70 lvls .. and it required a lot more xp to lvl. From lvl 30-31 it required a good 2h or more of playtime. There were no mounts until 40, there was a lot more travelling because the zones were much less planned out (it was basically half a dozen quest hubs with almost no connection to each other).
- since players would spend hours to lvl up while questing, it was ok to ask them to spend hours in a dungeon.

currently:
- There's many other activities that players can do .. so again, it's natural that those experiences have a shorter duration
- we have 90 lvls now. One of the problems blues mentioned several times is that such a lvl difference is problematic when new friends join the game at lvl 1 while you are at lvl 90. And they simply couldn't keep the same amount of XP required.

To lvl a character from 1 to 60 it was an eternity .. if they kept the same amount of time, from 1 to 90 it would take months playing.

- Once you reduce the amount of xp and optimize quests to be a little less stupid, lvling via quests is very eficient.

- In order for dungeons to be "competitive" in terms of how much xp/hour they award, they had to get faster as well. Since it's a more colossal task to actually change the dungeon layout, they simply made them easier. And obviously adjusted some of the gigantic instances (sunken temple, brd) or merged (SM) them in optimal versions.

All that while lfd made "dungeoning" more efficient ..

While I liked vanilla/bc 5 mans I understand why they changed. That kind of long/hard dungeons only worked on vanilla (and on bc 5 mans). Not because players were better, but doing a 5 man was a 1h deal. You had to manually fill the group. It wasn't uncommon to hear things like "lf1m mage for X instance, come to Y place for inspect".

People say that ilvl is a villain, but you were inspected back then as well. You knew dungeons were hard .. you weren't taking chances with a random nobody. So yeh, people were very picky. DPS classes without CC were just ignored.

That 5 man on sunwell, which was quite hard for a 5man the "default" group was:
- mage, hunter, warlock, or a rogue if you didn't find one of the them
- paladins = tank or healer
- warriors = tank
- druids = tank or healer
- priests = healer

Doing them without 3 CCs was asking for trouble. You definetely could .. but it would be harder. I had several groups breaking up because there was no dps with CC willing to do it. That wasn't exactly fun, imo.

And if you tried to run low lvl dungeons during bc/wotlk (before icc/lfd patch), good luck with that.

I have characters that leveled back in that time and they have zero dungeon runs. Simply because it was impossible to find a group. It was very unlikely to find 5 players in your server, around the same lvl, filling the 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps roles, that wanted to cross the world to do an instance. The time you wasted doing that, you could be leveling, so it was faster to simply ignore them.

So yeh, while I remember the fun times I had running dungeons on vanilla. It was a 40m-1h deal. Hell .. I don't have the patience anymore to spend 1h in one dungeon. There's just no way that kind of dungeon could fit in the game we have today.
Edited by Leeflow on 2/27/2013 7:42 AM PST
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61 Undead Warrior
4740
In most instances tanks do more dps than dps...so remove dps in Dungeons?
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90 Draenei Paladin
3165
I predict the death of dodge and parry. But tank specs going away entirely and allowing damage specs to tank, will just raise healing requirements.

Also, there will be a void. Someone will devise a way to be very difficult to kill, re-creating him/herself as a true "tank". And tempting others to follow, thus creating "tanks" again.


Dodge and parry have been essentially dead since Wrath, with the exception of prot warriors because of Revenge. With the new fad of active mitigation, it makes more sense to pick up hit/expertise/haste and still do a damn good job at tanking while being a contender for top DPS. (At least in all of my recent LFD runs.) If they made avoidance stats actually mean something in a tank's mitigation rotation, they would be relevant again. Grand Crusader having a chance to proc after a successful dodge or parry would rule.

And I agree with mobs hitting non-tanks harder than they do now. I'm super sick of being yelled at because we're not going fast enough for one DPS. Last time this happened though, healer and I let a hunter rush ahead and pull just so he would die. Thankfully, he left instance and we got paired with a much nicer warlock. feelsgoodman.jpg
Edited by Zikita on 2/27/2013 8:38 AM PST
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81 Gnome Death Knight
10100
That 5 man on sunwell, which was quite hard for a 5man the "default" group was:
- mage, hunter, warlock, or a rogue if you didn't find one of the them
- paladins = tank or healer
- warriors = tank
- druids = tank or healer
- priests = healer


I both loved and hated Magister's Terrace. I had a far easier time getting a group spot as a warlock than a resto shaman simply because it was easier to find a decent healer than a warlock who could CC reliably.
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100 Night Elf Druid
5895
02/27/2013 07:49 AMPosted by Karbushian
In most instances tanks do more dps than dps...so remove dps in Dungeons?


Wouldn't work with current mechanics, tanks rely on vengeance to do that dps and they can't all have it at once.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
6670
5 mans in vanilla were a pain. Nothing like getting into a dungeon with a decent but slow group, wiping to random bad luck right before the end, and having the group disband because no one wanted to spend another hour clearing the respawns.

I enjoyed the Cata heroics but I never want to it be like it was in Vanilla. I never once saw the end of BRD on my priest, and it wasn't until I re-subbed in Cata that I got to see the entirety of many of those instances.
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90 Night Elf Druid
13680
The major issue with heroics right now is a lack of reason to do them.
You HAVE to do X dailies to receive your 90 charms a week, so if you do 5 LFRs, clear 16 bosses and get your 3 elder charms you have absolutely no need to run a dungeon anymore.

Now let's say instead of valor you wanted to run a dungeon for.... justice! Well, here you go, 42 justice for your effort per boss, awesome! 5.2 is looking at redesigning it, but blizzard made a monumental !@#$ up when they had heroics > lfr > normal raids > heroic raids as a progression series. There was no need for LFR to offer better gear than heroics.

It should've been Scenarios > Heroics + LFR > Normals > Heroics.

Rewards:
Scenarios - 458. 150 Justice and 2 Lesser Charms per completion.
Heroics - 463. 100 Justice per boss kill. 100 Valor and 5 lesser charms per completion.
LFR (450 req) - 463 epics and tier present. 150 Valor per completion.
Normal - 476 epics. 50 Valor per boss kill.
Heroics - 489 heroic epics. 75 Valor per boss kill.
Dailies - 3 Lesser Charms and 10 Valor per daily.

Justice points could purchase 450 items to finish out peoples sets
Valor points would do the same but offer 476 epics (same as normal raids).

It would've encouraged more tanks to run heroics as a way to both get your 3 elder charms and also gear up in preparation for LFR. Once geared, still a great way for the charms plus valor.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
3810
The real thing is there is a minority of people calling for the removal of the trinity in wow. They dont want dedicated tank and healers, they want it so everyone can do all. They want the games mechanics changed to where mobs and bosses no longer do things that only a tank can hold against. Personally I am against this, I like the idea of set roles in grouping.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
6670
The major issue with heroics right now is a lack of reason to do them.


Their best feature, IMO, heh.
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100 Orc Warrior
15350
02/23/2013 11:41 PMPosted by Postonforums
gearscores


WoW

RIP 2008


LF GF 6K GS OR NO FLOWERS PST
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100 Pandaren Monk
19680
The major issue with heroics right now is a lack of reason to do them.
You HAVE to do X dailies to receive your 90 charms a week, so if you do 5 LFRs, clear 16 bosses and get your 3 elder charms you have absolutely no need to run a dungeon anymore.

Now let's say instead of valor you wanted to run a dungeon for.... justice! Well, here you go, 42 justice for your effort per boss, awesome! 5.2 is looking at redesigning it, but blizzard made a monumental !@#$ up when they had heroics > lfr > normal raids > heroic raids as a progression series. There was no need for LFR to offer better gear than heroics.

It should've been Scenarios > Heroics + LFR > Normals > Heroics.

Rewards:
Scenarios - 458. 150 Justice and 2 Lesser Charms per completion.
Heroics - 463. 100 Justice per boss kill. 100 Valor and 5 lesser charms per completion.
LFR (450 req) - 463 epics and tier present. 150 Valor per completion.
Normal - 476 epics. 50 Valor per boss kill.
Heroics - 489 heroic epics. 75 Valor per boss kill.
Dailies - 3 Lesser Charms and 10 Valor per daily.

Justice points could purchase 450 items to finish out peoples sets
Valor points would do the same but offer 476 epics (same as normal raids).

It would've encouraged more tanks to run heroics as a way to both get your 3 elder charms and also gear up in preparation for LFR. Once geared, still a great way for the charms plus valor.


your idea is exactly the opposite direction they wanted to do. They made it VERY clear that their idea for mop is that you could chose your progression path.

- you can valor cap on raids alone
- you can run a dozen 5man heroics/week and valor cap
- you can mix match dailies with scenarios and a couple of heroics and valor cap.

It's up to you. But the harder the source, will always reward more reward per time spent. It takes a lot more to kill a raid boss than doing 5 dailies. So yeh .. it's not meant to be equivalent.

And you are not "forced" to do X dailies to receive 90 charms a week. If you want the extra roll, do it. But it's def not necessary. There were at least 2-3 guys from my raid group that didn't farm coins and their gear is equivalent to everyone else.

Also, if you are exalted with every faction, odds are you still have a couple hundred silver coins until now.

The only dailies I did after getting exalted with everything, was the 5.1 hub until I got exalted with them as well. And exchanging every single week, I still have ~600lesser charms to exchange.

I still have enough charms for 6 weeks.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
your idea is exactly the opposite direction they wanted to do. They made it VERY clear that their idea for mop is that you could chose your progression path.

- you can valor cap on raids alone
- you can run a dozen 5man heroics/week and valor cap

- you can mix match dailies with scenarios and a couple of heroics and valor cap.

It's up to you. But the harder the source, will always reward more reward per time spent. It takes a lot more to kill a raid boss than doing 5 dailies. So yeh .. it's not meant to be equivalent.


You can't do those two underlined things - you'll fall short (unless you define raids as "LFR")

They actually made it very clear that they want you spending time doing those other things, and not just finishing your progress with raids alone, or dungeons alone, which is why they don't want you just capping from raids and so on.

Also, if you are exalted with every faction, odds are you still have a couple hundred silver coins until now.

The only dailies I did after getting exalted with everything, was the 5.1 hub until I got exalted with them as well.


However, that can't apply - people with low motivation for dailies likely didn't have the motivation to push to Exalted in December, before the Commendations could be used, and that's if you assume they have a motivation to get Exalted, and with every faction (including, say, Anglers, which many skipped for various reasons).
And that's assuming they did do dailies instead of say piggybacking on the farm to get them to Tillers exalted eventually, or farming the usable thingy before that was nerfed, etc.

Given that the design gives you the useful things at Revered, instead of making you want to go to Exalted, that's a lot of assumptions.
Edited by Slashlove on 2/27/2013 4:52 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
I did half of shado pan revered and most of AC revered after commendations.

I've been dry for a couple weeks (I got back to exactly 90 doing BS pointless klaxxi dailies and I'm just sitting on them for 5.2 because having to do full time dailies when I'm already long exalted is stupid.
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90 Draenei Hunter
7730
Tanks gotta learn somewhere too.

I think the solution is more along the lines of things in dungeons that can blow up dps but not just pulling threat (though killing hunter pets on growl would be great, just a boss that hates pets or something, name him grumbley).
-I was thinking of the damage zones in the revamped deadmines, if dps were getting hit and standing in them they were pretty easily destroyed, but if they were in them but not pulling threat they were badass for 15 seconds.
-The solution is to make dps more responsible for their lives through mechanics and honestly if the game would require ONE humanoid to be cc'd from time to time I wouldn't mind, there are so many mechanics and moves that are barely used outside of raiding that should also make their way back into 5 man content.
-I remember when dps were desperate for threat dumps, I sorta miss that era, now that it is gone, too much responsibility is shouldered on non-dps.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
9875
Lets just make all classes a paladin and combind all 3 of their specs into one. total class balance and instant ques for all
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