5.2 fistweaving stat and rotation disscussion

90 Draenei Monk
7380
Ok first off i love fistweaving and love the changes so if you don't post somewhere else.

With that said it seems to me that there is going to be a big shift in stat weights between a ranged style monk healerr and a fistweaving monk healer.

I see haste and crit being the goto stat in 5.2 even over intell and mastery for pure fistweaving.

Intell due to the multipliers just doesn't give us that much bonus even though it does grant attack power.

haste is given a 50% bonus so we can actually stack amazing amounts of it

Crit will probably be a go to stat as it doubles our damage essentailly doubles our healing of of each crit and crits proc tiger strikes which is an amazing buff that stacks with haste and adds up big time over the course of a fight.

Another amazing change is the free movement we now will have with our statue being able to change who is getting 50% of our eminence healing.

I would love to see some good fistweaving rotations here as well as some super healing combo's for high quick healing. i will post the rotation i came up with on the ptr as well as my heavy aoe healing rotation. i hope to see some good positive discussion here and not just

QQ BLIZZARD BROKE MY MONK

To be honest blizzard took care of everything on my wish list for fist weaving
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90 Blood Elf Monk
7725
Haste is Useless for fistweaving, since the main damage is going to be coming from yellow attacks, not white attacks. You're better off stacking more int, spirit or crit for if you intend to use Jab TP more for the extra damage/longevity.

Jab TP is basically it for fistweaving, I don't see BoK being worth using on singe target unless you were sure that you could non stop autoattack for the entire 20 second duration of serpents zeal.

As for being able to quickly swap back to mistweaving, banking 2-3 chi can give you an instant uplift/enveloping when damage comes, and Jab can be used once to get another chi, as long you use a chi on TP or BoK in the next 15 seconds.
Edited by Kungfuwaifu on 3/1/2013 8:18 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
Haste is Useless for fistweaving, since the main damage is going to be coming from yellow attacks, not white attacks. You're better off stacking more int, spirit or crit for if you intend to use Jab TP more for the extra damage/longevity.

Jab TP is basically it for fistweaving, I don't see BoK being worth using on singe target unless you were sure that you could non stop autoattack for the entire 20 second duration of serpents zeal.

As for being able to quickly swap back to mistweaving, banking 2-3 chi can give you an instant uplift/enveloping when damage comes, and Jab can be used once to get another chi, as long you use a chi on TP or BoK in the next 15 seconds.


I think you mean 30 seconds for SZ but whatever. I agree that I'm not sold on SZ with the nerf since Monks didn't get any Buffs to White Damage. I almost feel that 2 Chi is better served on an Uplift if there's enough ReM's floating around.

I'm still trying to digest GC's quote about Fistweaving being a 50/50 playstyle. Does he just include the Jab/TP combo along with SZ or is he including Vital Mist procs. I wonder how a pure Mistweaver will compare to a Monk who Fistweaves most of the time and is good at timing Uplift so using Jab without TP gets the most benefit.

Some of it is going to come down to the math between Ascension, Power Strikes and Chi Brew for a Fistweaver and how the change to Soothing Mist Chi generation works out.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11510
i played a little last night on the ptr.

of course with the increase of jab mana it hurts to jab. you can't jab twice to gen the chi for bok unless you want to waste an mm so you would have to plan ahead and chain a jab+rem or jab+eh then bok for efficient mm usage.

the mana back from is pretty nice but limited ways to really use it for mana back aside from upkeep of fistweaving buffs

i tried the supposed buffed version of soothing mist as well. unfortunately it feels extremely rng still, ranging from 2 chi generated to 5 w/ ascension.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7455
The rotation is pretty straightforward:

Jab - > TP

ReM on cooldown.

If you're going to be only fistweaving, and not casting normal ranged heals, get an AGI 2hander and burn spare chi on BoK.

If you're going to try to force some hybrid healing(because a raid will actually require you to in order to keep people alive), then BoK is probably not worth the extra mana cost from chi, as you'll be channeling a TON(and thus not fistweaving), which means no white attacks anyways. And nerfed SZ and no white attack buff minimalizes its affect anways...
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Power Strikes is still the best option, because extra Chi is all kinds of awesome. The cooldown on it lines up pretty closely with the duration of SZ. If you're not using SZ you can use the extra Chi to weave in Uplifts, or you can pool Chi faster for burst.

Ascension scales with MM, and it's mathematically equal with PS in terms of longevity. It's less dynamic than PS but it's still a good choice.

Chi Brew has no interaction with MM at all, and should not be considered by fistweavers.

BTW, swapping weapons incurs a global cooldown and interrupts your swing timer. Don't bother with it if you want to weave the two styles together.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7455
"BTW, swapping weapons incurs a global cooldown and interrupts your swing timer. Don't bother with it if you want to weave the two styles together."



There...won't really be much weaving of the two styles together? chi spent from jab has to be spent on TP or BoK, or you'll OOM. Chi gained from soothing mists means no auto attack, so no healing from SZ, and no healing from eminence. And no MM proc, so using that chi for a TP or BoK is a waste. Its not like every 10 seconds you'll be rolling in/out and swapping styles...

FW looks like its just going to be jab -> TP, ReM on cooldown, and BoK when you have MM up from jab, + extra chi from ReM. Uplift only when 2 chi, but no MM up.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
"BTW, swapping weapons incurs a global cooldown and interrupts your swing timer. Don't bother with it if you want to weave the two styles together."



There...won't really be much weaving of the two styles together? chi spent from jab has to be spent on TP or BoK, or you'll OOM. Chi gained from soothing mists means no auto attack, so no healing from SZ, and no healing from eminence. And no MM proc, so using that chi for a TP or BoK is a waste. Its not like every 10 seconds you'll be rolling in/out and swapping styles...

FW looks like its just going to be jab -> TP, ReM on cooldown, and BoK when you have MM up from jab, + extra chi from ReM. Uplift only when 2 chi, but no MM up.


Don't forget Expel Harm every 15 seconds and Surging at 5 stacks of Vital Mists. 2 More Chi every 15 seconds or so for almost zero mana.
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90 Human Priest
16625
When I was doing dps tests with the pvp 2-handers, my damage and healing went down when I switched from the spellcaster wep to the agility staff. I don't know if some agility 2handers are much better weapon dps than the pvp ones, but my findings were that it's better to use the spellcaster wep for fistweaving if they're the same ilevel.

I did live tests of haste stacking and it's worse for fistweaving than mastery is because all the buttons you're pressing are already at a 1 second gcd. I had to napkin mastery because my tests were at 100% hp so I wasn't proccing orbs, but it scales pretty badly even if you're group is moving to them for more effective healing.

Crit and int were good, but my dps wasn't as scaled down by just prioritizing spirit as it is for atonement priests. Personally, I'm just going to do spirit stacking and reforge the other secondary on gear to crit.

Also, surging mist doesn't need to only be used at 5 stacks of Vital Mists. I was spending it at 3-4 for the increased chi generation and it wasn't ooming me because more chi=more mana tea charges. I wasn't losing as much dps as I thought I would be either because dumping chi into blackout kicks=more damage than dumping chi into tiger palms.

Ascension didn't do as much damage as power strikes, but it wasn't a crippling loss either. Like, if ascension under some rotation was doing 48k dps, then power strikes was barely 50k. But to each their own, because more dps is more dps.
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There...won't really be much weaving of the two styles together? chi spent from jab has to be spent on TP or BoK, or you'll OOM. Chi gained from soothing mists means no auto attack, so no healing from SZ, and no healing from eminence. And no MM proc, so using that chi for a TP or BoK is a waste. Its not like every 10 seconds you'll be rolling in/out and swapping styles...

FW looks like its just going to be jab -> TP, ReM on cooldown, and BoK when you have MM up from jab, + extra chi from ReM. Uplift only when 2 chi, but no MM up.


Over a 32 second period, you'll gain:
4 Chi from ReM
2 Chi from Expel Harm
2-4 Chi from Vital Mists (depending on how you play)
1 Chi from Power Strikes if taken

It would be easy to weave in 3 to 5 Uplifts while remaining in melee. I may have been unclear, but that's what I meant.
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90 Draenei Monk
7380
All i am trying to say is that hasteespecially with the changes in 5.2 becomes a very powerful stat.

the fourth breakpoint of renewing mists will be attainable with 5.2 gear giving fistweavers 13 renewing mist ticks. that same haste point will lower your global cooldown to .8 sec 13 ticks with T15 2 set = people wanting to nerf monks

you can throw more jab>tigerpalm combos for more dps and healing not to mention with the new changes to soothing mists you will generate massive amounts of chi and that same 9150 haste point gives you even another tick on enveloping mists.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
All i am trying to say is that hasteespecially with the changes in 5.2 becomes a very powerful stat.

the fourth breakpoint of renewing mists will be attainable with 5.2 gear giving fistweavers 13 renewing mist ticks. that same haste point will lower your global cooldown to .8 sec 13 ticks with T15 2 set = people wanting to nerf monks

you can throw more jab>tigerpalm combos for more dps and healing not to mention with the new changes to soothing mists you will generate massive amounts of chi and that same 9150 haste point gives you even another tick on enveloping mists.


Doesn't the GCD cap at 1 sec no matter how much Haste?

Plus I think you need to add the caveat that until you can hit the next Haste break point it's not necessarily a good idea to stack it.
Edited by Indyana on 3/2/2013 8:08 AM PST
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90 Human Monk
10960
Doesn't the GCD cap at 1 sec no matter how much Haste?

Plus I think you need to add the caveat that until you can hit the next Haste break point it's not necessarily a good idea to stack it.


Yes. GCD would cap at 1 second but any non-instant heal would land at 0.8 seconds.

In addition to that, I really hate this obsession that people have with hitting certain haste breakpoints without taking into consideration anything else. I mean, yes getting that 4th breakpoint would be great and all but you are giving up so much of all the other stats just to get to that point. I really feel like you are pigeonholing so much of your healing into on idea and one spell that it hurts the rest of your healing.
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62 Night Elf Monk
5385
03/01/2013 08:59 AMPosted by Druik
get an AGI 2hander


I thought agility didn't contribute to your AP at all in Serpent Stance, while spellpower did?
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90 Human Monk
10960
03/02/2013 11:12 PMPosted by Shaulann
get an AGI 2hander


I thought agility didn't contribute to your AP at all in Serpent Stance, while spellpower did?


The thought process behind it is that since spellpower weapons have really terrible damage values on them, you can use an agility 2 hander with significantly higher damage values and it will be a bigger increase than the lost of spell power and attack power.

I haven't mathed it out for what the cutoff is but there is some truth to this. I'm still of the mind that given even ilvl items, the spellpower one should always be better.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9490
A rotation I found was centered around using chi wave on CD. So a 15 second rotation. Its mana positive so you can run it forever using every GCD if you wanted to and the situation allowed.

Jab+TPx5
Free Surging from Vital Mists
Jab
Blackout kick
Chi wave
Mana Tea

Now Im not sure about renewing mists yet. With the above rotation you could run with 10k spirit and be positive 2k MP5 so you could weave in renewing mists where you felt it necessary. Im of the mind though that with all the smart heals flying out from fistweaving, you'll be sniping your own renewing mist ticks. Also, blackout kick is only needed every 30 seconds so you can skip that from the above rotation every other. Also, I tested an agi 2hander and a SP 2hander and all things being equal, you should stay with the SP weapon. ESPECIALLY if you're gonna weave in renewing mists on CD. The loss in spellpower greatly effects chi wave and would hit renewing mists pretty hard too. I would personally make sure you stay around 10-11k spirit for 5.2 then stack crit and int.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11680
The thought process behind it is that since spellpower weapons have really terrible damage values on them, you can use an agility 2 hander with significantly higher damage values and it will be a bigger increase than the lost of spell power and attack power.

I haven't mathed it out for what the cutoff is but there is some truth to this. I'm still of the mind that given even ilvl items, the spellpower one should always be better.


I did some of this math a while ago and here were my conclusions:

Mistweaver melee abilities are calculated with a string of modifiers tacked on to (weapon DPS + AP/14) for a two-handed weapon, or (1.5*weapon DPS + AP/14) for a one-handed weapon. (The 1.5* multiplier is undocumented in game but makes all the numbers work. It is a compensation for the fact that one-handed-weapon calculations for Monks assume that you are dual-wielding those one-handed weapons, but Mistweavers do not have access to dual wielding.)

Since 1 SP = 2 AP, we can rewrite the important part as:

(weapon DPS + SP/7)

Spell Power weapons have, obviously, high Spell Power on them (both Int and SP) but low weapon DPS. Agility weapons have no Spell Power on them, but high weapon DPS. The way to determine whether it would be an upgrade for your melee abilities alone would be to plug the values into the expression below and see which side has the higher number:


Two-Handed Weapon
Agility Weapon's Contribution SP Weapon's Contribution
Agi Weapon DPS - SP Weapon DPS (1.1*(1.05*weapon Int + weapon SP))/7

One-Handed Weapon
Agility Weapon's Contribution SP Weapon's Contribution
1.5*(Agi Weapon DPS - SP Weapon DPS) (1.1*(1.05*weapon Int + weapon SP))/7


Now, here is the thing. It will always always always be a loss to change to the Agility weapon if you intend to use any of your non-melee abilities. They all scale from Attack Power or Spell Power alone, and you get neither of these stats from an Agility weapon.

I'll also note that Invoke Xuen, the White Tiger scales solely from AP and SP, so even though he heals via Eminence like your melee abilities do, he will not benefit from an Agility weapon either. I mathed this out using Mist's monk's numbers and a heroic 2H agi weapon from t14, and it was a 200-300 healing loss on each of Xuen's Eminence heals, and a 1000 healing loss from each tick of Xuen's White Tiger Lightning, so it was not an insignificant loss.

The only thing this has going for it is that Renewing Mists already active on the raid do not scale down their healing when you change your weapon.

That said, in some certain, niche situations - I'm thinking Heroic Wind Lord-esque, huge damage-taken buffs - it may be an improvement to swap to an Agility weapon to provide Eminence healing as your sole source of healing during that period. But that period has to be long enough to be able to eat the loss of two GCDs. And intuitively it doesn't make sense to gimp Xuen on a fight with a damage vulnerability.

In the 5.2 encounters I've tested, I haven't seen a situation where this would be particularly warranted.
Edited by Dayani on 3/3/2013 4:00 AM PST
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I've been doing some mostly pure fistweaving for LFRs just because I damn well want to (and I don't see it being especially feasible anywhere else), but the main problem I've run into--at my gear level--is mana. I can't sustain "DPSing the boss" + ReM for more than a few minutes. While I'm doing it the healing is reasonably good (again, in LFR) but once I get low and slow down my rotation, of course, my HPS tanks.

I do find that I have a lot of Chi to work with because I don't like to spend it on non-Muscle Memory boosted TP/BoKs (they are quite weak in comparison), so it is easy to weave in some Uplifts, but they're not all that great the way I was playing because I'm not rigid about ReM on CD/TFT (due to mana).

If I can get my spirit and crit up (so I don't run out of Mana Tea) I can see pure fistweaving to be a much more enjoyable way to spend LFRs than boring beam healing.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12200
/castsequence reset=5 Jab, Renewing Mist, Blackout Kick, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Mana Tea, Renewing Mist, Jab, Tiger Palm, Surging Mist, Jab, Blackout Kick, Jab, Blackout Kick, Chi Wave, Mana Tea

I made this macro to help out with fistweaving, and it can go a lot of places and be modded a bit, but ive managed to get relatively good DPS and HPS from it with little effort on my part. One thing to note is that the blackout kick buff is always up, and the extra blackout kicks can be replaced with uplifts (might just do that on my part anyways). NOTE EDIT: If you are going to change a blackout kick, change the jab ahead of it to an expel harm, otherwise you lose out on mana! Target dummy testing shows lots of random stuff.

In order for it to work ive chosen the following:
Surging mist glyph
Renewing mist glyph (extra range)
Mana Tea glyph
Zuen
Chi Wave
Ascension

Raid buffed with crystal of insanity, i have 10.5k spirit and lose approx 20k mana a minute with the one button macro. Switching over to mistweaving for times of heavy healing and summoning Zuen is still an easy option to keep heals rolling everywhere (zuen attacks really fast, tons of small heals). The macro duration is approx 23 seconds long, so sadly renewing mists uptime still isnt OPTIMAL, but i'll be damned if it aint better than what i pull otherwise.

I however am still at the haste soft cap according to AMR. might try a crit build once i get some more gold.

Hope it helps!!!
Edited by Kylnara on 3/12/2013 1:15 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
5290
/castsequence reset=5 Jab, Renewing Mist, Blackout Kick, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Mana Tea, Renewing Mist, Jab, Tiger Palm, Surging Mist, Jab, Blackout Kick, Jab, Blackout Kick, Chi Wave, Mana Tea

I made this macro to help out with fistweaving, and it can go a lot of places and be modded a bit, but ive managed to get relatively good DPS and HPS from it with little effort on my part. One thing to note is that the blackout kick buff is always up, and the extra blackout kicks can be replaced with uplifts (might just do that on my part anyways). NOTE EDIT: If you are going to change a blackout kick, change the jab ahead of it to an expel harm, otherwise you lose out on mana! Target dummy testing shows lots of random stuff.

In order for it to work ive chosen the following:
Surging mist glyph
Renewing mist glyph (extra range)
Mana Tea glyph
Zuen
Chi Wave
Ascension

Raid buffed with crystal of insanity, i have 10.5k spirit and lose approx 20k mana a minute with the one button macro. Switching over to mistweaving for times of heavy healing and summoning Zuen is still an easy option to keep heals rolling everywhere (zuen attacks really fast, tons of small heals). The macro duration is approx 23 seconds long, so sadly renewing mists uptime still isnt OPTIMAL, but i'll be damned if it aint better than what i pull otherwise.

I however am still at the haste soft cap according to AMR. might try a crit build once i get some more gold.

Hope it helps!!!


Just used this with crappy gear even look at my armory and must say its really good hardly went oom topped healing charts and beat some dps although this is in LFR but still nice macro
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