Jab mana cost increased again~

Unless you press Jab while you already have Muscle Memory up, there is no loss from using it. You will get a substantial boost to your next Tiger Palm or BoK and restore 4% mana when you use it.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12905


Far to much to ask for. Fun is out of the question we are all abouts the serialness of this gamez remember they want other healers to take er jerbs


I'm quite afraid that accidentally using the wrong button even once or twice might cripple me for the rest of a fight unless I totally outgear it, for basic abilities that they claim to be encouraging. I'm almost guaranteed to mess up multiple times as I learn (assuming I get the chance). What is the upside of this? I have every healer at least 85 right now, and this seems completely unacceptable to me.


No, no. I am sorry you misinterpreted my post. I was being sarcastic. I enjoyed monks the way they are now. I am not liking that in order for me to heal right i have to do only dps or only range healing. Not to mention with how MASSIVE a nerf we got after 5.1 hit in order for us to even keep up with the other healers we NEED that extra chi we got from jabbing. Now they are saying to get it your spending 12k more mana and gaining nothing is like saying here guys don't play monks this patch because we don't know how to fix you without giving you a massive buff play other classes till 5.3.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12905
02/21/2013 11:27 PMPosted by Brewfist
Unless you press Jab while you already have Muscle Memory up, there is no loss from using it. You will get a substantial boost to your next Tiger Palm or BoK and restore 4% mana when you use it.


Yes and in order to get 2 chi for BK while Muscle Memory is up you either A.) Spend another 24k on a jab which ~wastes~ the first Muscle Memory. B.) Have Renewing Mist off cooldown which would grant you that second chi. C.) not cast BK at all and only use Muscle Memory and Jab to TP.

Edit - You could use soothing mist and take the risk of the Muslce Memory falling off before the second Chi is granted.
Edited by Jáckiepán on 2/21/2013 11:31 PM PST
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90 Draenei Monk
16325
02/21/2013 11:27 PMPosted by Brewfist
Unless you press Jab while you already have Muscle Memory up, there is no loss from using it. You will get a substantial boost to your next Tiger Palm or BoK and restore 4% mana when you use it.


Jab is going from a reliable way to generate chi for any ability to a reliable way to Tiger Palm. So yes, there is a loss.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13165


I'm quite afraid that accidentally using the wrong button even once or twice might cripple me for the rest of a fight unless I totally outgear it, for basic abilities that they claim to be encouraging. I'm almost guaranteed to mess up multiple times as I learn (assuming I get the chance). What is the upside of this? I have every healer at least 85 right now, and this seems completely unacceptable to me.


No, no. I am sorry you misinterpreted my post. I was being sarcastic. I enjoyed monks the way they are now. I am not liking that in order for me to heal right i have to do only dps or only range healing. Not to mention with how MASSIVE a nerf we got after 5.1 hit in order for us to even keep up with the other healers we NEED that extra chi we got from jabbing. Now they are saying to get it your spending 12k more mana and gaining nothing is like saying here guys don't play monks this patch because we don't know how to fix you without giving you a massive buff play other classes till 5.3.


Oh, I am sorry, I wasn't posting in an accusatory way (and the jerbz thing tipped me off, even at this hour). I just...can't be in a joking mood about this right now.

What is Monk doing on Live right now that Blizzard considers OP? Is there something I'm not seeing? It's like they are treating Monks like they are still doing 5.0 numbers.

As I said, it's fine if they don't like the JabxJab Uplift playstyle, but for some reason they don't seem to realize the repercussions of nerfing it to this degree while adding nothing else at the same time. I JabxJab Uplift in melee because that's how the raid stays alive. I can't rely on Soothing, and never will be able to as long as it + ReM add up to that much RNG on who gets hit with Uplift (serious lols at the Glyph too, OOM in 6-7 GCDs? So overpowered).

I notice they didn't post their "new, improved" numbers yet for Soothing Chi Generation, but I remain extremely skeptical that information is going to matter, going by what I have already seen. This isn't actually improving the playstyle, just making it more rigid and ineffective. I do not know why the OP is celebrating. Blizzard didn't make the ranged toolkit any less lackluster, they just brought melee healing down to "match" it in mediocrity.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12905


No, no. I am sorry you misinterpreted my post. I was being sarcastic. I enjoyed monks the way they are now. I am not liking that in order for me to heal right i have to do only dps or only range healing. Not to mention with how MASSIVE a nerf we got after 5.1 hit in order for us to even keep up with the other healers we NEED that extra chi we got from jabbing. Now they are saying to get it your spending 12k more mana and gaining nothing is like saying here guys don't play monks this patch because we don't know how to fix you without giving you a massive buff play other classes till 5.3.


Oh, I am sorry, I wasn't posting in an accusatory way (and the jerbz thing tipped me off, even at this hour). I just...can't be in a joking mood about this right now.

What is Monk doing on Live right now that Blizzard considers OP? Is there something I'm not seeing? It's like they are treating Monks like they are still doing 5.0 numbers.

As I said, it's fine if they don't like the JabxJab Uplift playstyle, but for some reason they don't seem to realize the repercussions of nerfing it to this degree while adding nothing else at the same time. I JabxJab Uplift in melee because that's how the raid stays alive. I can't rely on Soothing, and never will be able to as long as it + ReM add up to that much RNG on who gets hit with Uplift (serious lols at the Glyph too, OOM in 6-7 GCDs? So overpowered).

I notice they didn't post their "new, improved" numbers yet for Soothing Chi Generation, but I remain extremely skeptical that information is going to matter, going by what I have already seen. This isn't actually improving the playstyle, just making it more rigid and ineffective. I do not know why the OP is celebrating. Blizzard didn't make the ranged toolkit any less lackluster, they just brought melee healing down to "match" it in mediocrity.


This right here is hitting the nail on the head exactly. Lets make one play style suck since the other one already does too need to have balance suck with suck. I am very pessimistic that they will make changes to fix what I believe will be a mediocre patch for monks in general so much so that we won't be able to be viable for progression.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12905
I'm going to bed I am going to hurt my brain and get really mad if I keep thinking about how screwed our class is going to be if blizzard doesn't start using their heads.
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Unless you press Jab while you already have Muscle Memory up, there is no loss from using it. You will get a substantial boost to your next Tiger Palm or BoK and restore 4% mana when you use it.


Yes and in order to get 2 chi for BK while Muscle Memory is up you either A.) Spend another 24k on a jab which ~wastes~ the first Muscle Memory. B.) Have Renewing Mist off cooldown which would grant you that second chi. C.) not cast BK at all and only use Muscle Memory and Jab to TP.

Edit - You could use soothing mist and take the risk of the Muslce Memory falling off before the second Chi is granted.


Apparently Expel Harm doesn't exist to you.

Low mana cost, generates one Chi. I have yet to see a single fistweaver in this thread even acknowledge that skill exists. Even on live, it's a more reliable chi generator than jab because it costs less mana. It may not cause damage unless you're injured, but honestly, jab hits like a freaking wet noodle. Sure, it has a 15 second cooldown. But Serpents Zeal lasts 30 seconds and I'm not sure how long Muscle Memory lasts, as the tooltip lacks an actual time, but I'm sure it's at least 15 seconds. Expel Harm makes Jab + EH + BK perfectly viable.

And Lena, the fact you're on my server, I need to /facepalm anytime I see you. Your posts always comment on the statement, rather than what the statement was about. You do it on almost every one of my toons.

He was saying he was afraid accidentally pressing jab a couple times in a fight would cripple him for the rest of the fight. I was saying that it does not, as it gives you either half mana back, the tiger palm buff, and the eminenece healing from tiger palm, or you can tie it with another chi (from expel harm, soothing, etc.) to blackout kick for decent damage, eminence healing, and half the mana back from that jab.
Edited by Brewfist on 2/22/2013 12:24 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
12905


Yes and in order to get 2 chi for BK while Muscle Memory is up you either A.) Spend another 24k on a jab which ~wastes~ the first Muscle Memory. B.) Have Renewing Mist off cooldown which would grant you that second chi. C.) not cast BK at all and only use Muscle Memory and Jab to TP.

Edit - You could use soothing mist and take the risk of the Muslce Memory falling off before the second Chi is granted.


Apparently Expel Harm doesn't exist to you.

Low mana cost, generates one Chi. I have yet to see a single fistweaver in this thread even acknowledge that skill exists. Even on live, it's a more reliable chi generator than jab because it costs less mana. It may not cause damage unless you're injured, but honestly, jab hits like a freaking wet noodle. Sure, it has a 15 second cooldown. But Serpents Zeal lasts 30 seconds and I'm not sure how long Muscle Memory lasts, as the tooltip lacks an actual time, but I'm sure it's at least 15 seconds. Expel Harm makes Jab + EH + BK perfectly viable.

And Lena, the fact you're on my server, I need to /facepalm anytime I see you. Your posts always comment on the statement, rather than what the statement was about. You do it on almost every one of my toons.

He was saying he was afraid accidentally pressing jab a couple times in a fight would cripple him for the rest of the fight. I was saying that it does not, as it gives you either half mana back, the tiger palm buff, and the eminenece healing from tiger palm, or you can tie it with another chi (from expel harm, soothing, etc.) to blackout kick for decent damage, eminence healing, and half the mana back from that jab.


It's not half. its a 1/3 of the mana back. I don't consider Expel Harm to be a reliable Chi Generator because I don't want to use it on cooldown just for 1 Chi. If I am taking a lot of damage all at once and I used it 4 seconds ago for a chi and I need a quick heal i just screwed myself over your point is valid but actually considering doing that isn't such a great thing.

edit - not 1/3 its actually 1/4 of the mana back.

Edit - 1/3 or so if you use it with another chi generator like expel harm but not ReM as that costs 20k as well.
Edited by Jáckiepán on 2/22/2013 12:34 AM PST
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Apparently Expel Harm doesn't exist to you.

Low mana cost, generates one Chi. I have yet to see a single fistweaver in this thread even acknowledge that skill exists. Even on live, it's a more reliable chi generator than jab because it costs less mana. It may not cause damage unless you're injured, but honestly, jab hits like a freaking wet noodle. Sure, it has a 15 second cooldown. But Serpents Zeal lasts 30 seconds and I'm not sure how long Muscle Memory lasts, as the tooltip lacks an actual time, but I'm sure it's at least 15 seconds. Expel Harm makes Jab + EH + BK perfectly viable.

And Lena, the fact you're on my server, I need to /facepalm anytime I see you. Your posts always comment on the statement, rather than what the statement was about. You do it on almost every one of my toons.

He was saying he was afraid accidentally pressing jab a couple times in a fight would cripple him for the rest of the fight. I was saying that it does not, as it gives you either half mana back, the tiger palm buff, and the eminenece healing from tiger palm, or you can tie it with another chi (from expel harm, soothing, etc.) to blackout kick for decent damage, eminence healing, and half the mana back from that jab.


It's not half. its a 1/3 of the mana back. I don't consider Expel Harm to be a reliable Chi Generator because I don't want to use it on cooldown just for 1 Chi. If I am taking a lot of damage all at once and I used it 4 seconds ago for a chi and I need a quick heal i just screwed myself over your point is valid but actually considering doing that isn't such a great thing.

edit - not 1/3 its actually 1/4 of the mana back.

Edit - 1/3 or so if you use it with another chi generator like expel harm but not ReM as that costs 20k as well.


Jab costs 8% mana. Using Tiger Palm with that would be half the mana back. I wasn't thinking about BK. :P But using Expel Harm for that second Chi would use 10.5% mana for 4% mana back. Which is more than 1/3 but less than 1/2 :P
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90 Pandaren Monk
7390
Point is jab for chi is DEAD. i dont like these changes. They better find some way to make soothing mist chi generation consistent.

Honestly, i enjoyed jabbing to uplift. the whole RM spread minigame was a real pleasure for me. was anyone really complaining? Throw a couple enveloping mists in there on certain fights and you got a stew going. when i play my druid, really my only three spells are wild growth, lifebloom, and rejuv. I fail to see this "problem" that they are trying to correct. i think maybe the MM dps buffs were a little too much, and now they are compensating by not only nerfing fistweaving but changing the way monks heal all together.

eminence/SZ healing has been MAYBE ~15% of my total healing on fights when i am allowed to melee the boss the entire time. now that i cant really jab anymore, ill just have to sit in melee casting soothing mists, renewing and expel just so i can perform my basic enveloping/uplift duties.

i think the biggest problem with monk healing right now is its lack of ability to actually make a difference, besides whenever cocoon/revival is off cooldown. a tank spikes in damage? well, you could put enveloping on him, and hope he lives long enough to see the full duration of your hot, or you could surging mist him and be out of 1/12th of your mana in a fraction of a second. our healing might look great on the meters, but how much of those renewing mist ticks really make a difference in the outcome of the raid. without uplift, i am no longer anything close to a clutch healer, but rather just a "soften the edges with smart heals" healer.

Right now, the monk "niche" is aoe healing, thru uplift. and this change completely neuters it. put life cocoon on a 1 min CD and maybe ill be happy. but my co-healers wont be so happy when they have to spend extra mana to heal those raid members taking aoe damage that they would have spent on healing the tank.

any way you look at this, this is making us more reliant on smart heals, which may provide decent HPS, but HPS is NOT the most important thing when it comes to healing.

P.S. and id just like to add, I'm not happy with the chi wave changes, as i will now have another spell to use on cooldown. i mean really, how fun is that, pressing a button every 15 seconds, knowing that if you dont, you are losing potential healing? monk healing will essentially be pressing TFT, Expel, RM, and Chi wave, mana tea every time the cd comes up.
Edited by Bill on 2/22/2013 1:37 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
14285
So, as far as heroics go. If the boss does not take extra damage or the player does not have an extra damage buff from the encounter in order to make the expensive costs of fistweaving worthwhile i think i will more than likely not bother to fistweave. Right now i can do it due to near 13k combat regen but going from 3% cost to 8% really means for me that i will ReM and Expel Harm while building chi with soothing mists only. If i wanted to waste mana like Blizzard has laid out for me ill just chain cast surging or glyph uplift.

BTW, seriously whats up with surging mists costing so much to begin with? Druids have Healing Touch and Regrowth, Regrowth actually becoming more popular being that it CAN have a 100% crit chance for a little bit less than a normal HT, which has close to a 15-20% crit rate all for a trade off of like 600 mana more or less WHILE ALSO putting a 30% of the critical heals total on the target in the form of a buff that heals when damaged.

This fabled spell Regrowth, costs about 5k-6k less than surging mist and has under a 2 second cast time (might be around 1.5 with haste, cant remember).

So why is our only way to direct heal not only more costly to cast but costs the same amount when it heals for 80 k noncrit, granted it has a 25% more or less chance to crit. This heal already looks to be in trouble, but then friends we have to pair it with soothing mist in order to make it instant cast, wasting 1 global cooldown, making this heal no longer as instant as we thought. HEY WAIT! Don't spam surging while channeling soothing! Or you'll drop half your mana on overheals (not quite 50% but you get the idea).

Don't even get me started on monk aoe healing, if a druid magically was changed to aoe heal like a monk he would swiftly fly his lil self back to Teldrassil and never leave his house.

Sure we have mana tea charges to alleviate some of this. It doesnt make up for our spotty single target,aoe and fistweaving, but hey we get back 8% mana after spending far more than that to begin with.

Its late. I see the paragraph of text i was trying to avoid writing and shake my head knowing most of my gripes wont make sense or will be met be trolls. I make my monks current state work. I like it i really do. Fistweaving has its place as of right now on certain fights "Heroic Elegon, Wind Lord Mel'jarak, Stone Guardians". But some heroics and normals for that matter just have too much outgoing damage for this style to be anywhere near effective enough to even mix into the healing kit. I look again at that 8% cost of jab and think "wont matter when i have full 5.2 gear much" but know it still wont help fistweaving in the long run.

Anyway rant over, sorry to drag on, the trolls may now feast.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
17050
Losing track of all these changes but isn't it going to take 2 BoK or 96k mana to generate your first SZ? This means letting SZ drop is horribly punitive.


SZ is one stack @ 25% total.

Jab Jab Uplift was too efficient. That's all.

02/21/2013 11:27 PMPosted by Brewfist
Unless you press Jab while you already have Muscle Memory up, there is no loss from using it. You will get a substantial boost to your next Tiger Palm or BoK and restore 4% mana when you use it.


This can be a very real possibility. You essentially are going to want power strikes so you can BoK with one jab, and dump the rest of your jabs on TP so you don't lose out on MM. Jabbing twice in a row and wasting a MM is going to be horribly crippling for anyone who does it.

02/22/2013 01:04 AMPosted by Bill
They better find some way to make soothing mist chi generation consistent.


They already said they were.
Edited by Mist on 2/22/2013 4:36 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
10635
So now when we need chi to use on something other than TP we need to use Soothing Mist and stop our SZ healing from auto attacks? If you are using TP after every jab to maximize mana return, the only time you are going to get positive Chi is on a Power Strikes proc which you will probably want to use on BOK to refresh SZ anyway.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10965
It all sucks. They did the MW monk dirty.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15135
02/22/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Haikuli
So now when we need chi to use on something other than TP we need to use Soothing Mist and stop our SZ healing from auto attacks? If you are using TP after every jab to maximize mana return, the only time you are going to get positive Chi is on a Power Strikes proc which you will probably want to use on BOK to refresh SZ anyway.


If we have to sit there and channel Soothing Mists to generate Chi anyway, what's even the point of keeping SZ up? It's not like we can autoattack while we're channeling.
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90 Human Monk
0
I know it won't be a surprise to those who know me, but I'm ecstatic. Less mandatory fistweaving makes me a very happy monk.


why does it make you happy that your class is getting kicked in the teeth? Why does it make you happy when your fellow class members are screaming that the changes are killing a viable way we play our class? Ok, so you don't like fistweaving, why are you wanting nerfs to go through. You should be asking for buffs to your playstyle. Instead, you're dancing with glee because you have a singular, simpleminded, small view of your class. Get off the Monk forums, as we don't need, nor do we want such a bad representative of our class.
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I know it won't be a surprise to those who know me, but I'm ecstatic. Less mandatory fistweaving makes me a very happy monk.


why does it make you happy that your class is getting kicked in the teeth? Why does it make you happy when your fellow class members are screaming that the changes are killing a viable way we play our class? Ok, so you don't like fistweaving, why are you wanting nerfs to go through. You should be asking for buffs to your playstyle. Instead, you're dancing with glee because you have a singular, simpleminded, small view of your class. Get off the Monk forums, as we don't need, nor do we want such a bad representative of our class.


ACTUALLY if you pay attention to his posts he doesnt want to do away with Fistweaving NOR is he asking for nerfs, NOR Supporting the nerfs to your class.

He is estatic, AS AM I, that Mistweaving is getting the buff NEEDED to make ranged Mistweaving MORE viable. No longer will we have to PRAY to the RNG gods as heavily in order for Chi to proc.

So calm down! If we dont need ANY kind of representative on this forum its the harsh,vulgar,volatile posters like yourself!

#supportsthebuffstoMistweaving

God forbid you have to Mistweave now and again. Those of us that prefer to Mistweave are called single-minded and terrible. But now Fistweavers facing the idea that Mistweaving MIGHT end up better is showing the true colors of who's simple-minded.
Edited by Haotori on 2/22/2013 10:44 AM PST
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90 Human Monk
0
maybe you need to re-read his posts. "Less mandatory fistweaving makes me a happy Monk". That's pretty solid glee over nerfs to his class.

I'm glad MW is getting the Chi buff it NEEDS from SM. When I do ranged heal (when I'm feeling lazy), I can't stand the RNG Chi gen...it sucks. When I need it, I have none, and when I don't, I'm full up.

but the nerfs...he is happy we are getting nerfed. That's not the community ANYONE needs.
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