Jab mana cost increased again~

maybe you need to re-read his posts. "Less mandatory fistweaving makes me a happy Monk". That's pretty solid glee over nerfs to his class.

I'm glad MW is getting the Chi buff it NEEDS from SM. When I do ranged heal (when I'm feeling lazy), I can't stand the RNG Chi gen...it sucks. When I need it, I have none, and when I don't, I'm full up.

but the nerfs...he is happy we are getting nerfed. That's not the community ANYONE needs.


Taken extremely out of context. This must be your first day here in the Monk forums. That's cute. Welcome.

Ive been following Brewfist's posts for SOME time as he's one of the FEW that prefer to Mistweave heal like myself. Not few really. Im noticing more posts supporting it over the last 12 hours now that the proposed changes are on the PTR.

He's never said that he wants nerfs to Fistweaving, JUST that he wanted buffs to Mistweaving so it would be just as viable to those of us that dont want to feel forced into the Fistweaving role.

Not to say that I dont Fistweave ever. I do when its useful to do so, but a large majority of the time I love SM>EM>RM>Chi-Wave>Uplift>Chi Torpedo

What Brewfist was wanting, we got. Mistweaving buffs. Fistweaving nerfs happened, but thats not what he, NOR we were asking for.

/thread
Edited by Haotori on 2/22/2013 10:54 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10965
That Soothing Mist buff should have been the FIRST THING they implemented, rather than nerfing our heals while (for some strange reason that I won't ever comprehend) increase our damage output and raise our mana-cost.

Why. Whyyyy. Kuidfghduyfgndijgndfgijdg <--- that is my brain exploding.
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That Soothing Mist buff should have been the FIRST THING they implemented, rather than nerfing our heals while (for some strange reason that I won't ever comprehend) increase our damage output and raise our mana-cost.

Why. Whyyyy. Kuidfghduyfgndijgndfgijdg <--- that is my brain exploding.


FACT.

I agree 10000000000% They should have left Fistweaving completely alone. Just buffed Mistweaving Chi-gen.

Well not completely. I liked the Muscle-Memory idea before they FUBAR'ed it.
Edited by Haotori on 2/22/2013 10:53 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
6860
maybe you need to re-read his posts. "Less mandatory fistweaving makes me a happy Monk". That's pretty solid glee over nerfs to his class.

I'm glad MW is getting the Chi buff it NEEDS from SM. When I do ranged heal (when I'm feeling lazy), I can't stand the RNG Chi gen...it sucks. When I need it, I have none, and when I don't, I'm full up.

but the nerfs...he is happy we are getting nerfed. That's not the community ANYONE needs.

The nerfs aren't a personal attack on fistweaving. Stop making it out like they are.

Currently, on live, being able to Jab-Jab-Uplift is simply too efficient and good. The numbers put out border on ridiculous, making it almost mandatory to do so for any fight, and our mana simply doesn't move. The only reason monks were brought into raids was for this ridiculous amount of AoE.

Blizzard has stated that they wanted the flat healing of Fistweaving to be sub-par with actual healing, and that does make sense; being able to both heal ridiculously, like we are on live, and deal some pretty hefty damage, like we can on the PTR right now, simply makes us overpowered. By cutting our ability to use the most efficient and powerful way to AoE heal, so much so that it was making other healers useless, they make actual fistweaving more distinct: a great way to conserve mana but still contribute to the raid with stabilizing heals and hearty DPS.

On the other hand, mistweaving is getting a buff, by tilting the favor of the RNG to our side. Yes, we still have to contest with the RNG, but even if it's only 50% that's a massive increase in reliance with Soothing Mist Chi generation. Now, it makes Mistweaving incredibly viable, just as viable as fistweaving. We're no longer required to ony Jab-Jab-Uplift: Now we can either dart into melee to deal some damage and keep the raid topped off (this will still be the go-to way to play for fights like Elegon, because of the massive damage and healing increase), or stay in melee to avoid boss mechanics, but focus on casting spells (which should be where the bulk of our healing should be going). You can choose to do one or the other, or you can do both, like I try to do.
Edited by Fistlobster on 2/22/2013 11:02 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10965
By cutting our ability to use the most efficient and powerful way to AoE heal, so much so that it was making other healers useless, they make actual fistweaving more distinct: a great way to conserve mana but still contribute to the raid with stabilizing heals and hearty DPS.


I disagree. MW have not, in any way (shape, or form) made any other healing class useless. Live, we are still sub-par. PTR, still sub-par.
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By cutting our ability to use the most efficient and powerful way to AoE heal, so much so that it was making other healers useless, they make actual fistweaving more distinct: a great way to conserve mana but still contribute to the raid with stabilizing heals and hearty DPS.


I disagree. MW have not, in any way (shape, or form) made any other healing class useless. Live, we are still sub-par. PTR, still sub-par.


I dunno about that. It depends on the fight. Granted my experience is currently pretty limited due to awesome gear drops, but on Some fights im #2 or even #1 on the meters, STILL with low Overheal ( #4 or #5 on meters) but i dont ever feel sub-par. Im right up there with Disc Priests pretty often.
Edited by Haotori on 2/22/2013 11:08 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10965
You're right, I suppose -- depending on fight, gear, etc. But looking from LFR (I've only just started 10-mans with a new guild ... issues), and even on my DPS toon, I've seen Monks stagger behind Shammy's (a given), Priests, and Paladins. Druids are the only healing class I've seen that Monk's have the opportunity to surpass.

BUT, I will say, that my opinion is based off of LFR, and is not that adequate to back up my statement. It's my opinion, and now with this patch coming, I feel we will just fall behind even more to already exceptional healing classes because they want to focus on 1) Adding melee greatly to our spec in sacrifice of healing and 2) More or less force us out of our comfortability zone when it comes to playstyle (Fistweaving/Rangeweaving)
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90 Pandaren Monk
6860
02/22/2013 11:15 AMPosted by Celestïal
You're right, I suppose -- depending on fight, gear, etc. But looking from LFR (I've only just started 10-mans with a new guild ... issues), and even on my DPS toon, I've seen Monks stagger behind Shammy's (a given), Priests, and Paladins. Druids are the only healing class I've seen that Monk's have the opportunity to surpass.

See, I've had the opposite effect. I spent the entirity of the first part of HoF in LFR fistweaving, and I topped the scales, and always had mana to spare. I was fistweaving in the sense of ReM on CD, Jab-Jab-Uplift, and Serpent's Zeal. By far, my biggest heals were through Uplift. This isn't to say I never ran close to OoM, but I always felt incredibly comfortable. That shouldn't have been happening as a fistweaver, and that's what these changes address.

LFR is a poor indicator of class balance, definitely, but it still serves a point.
Edited by Fistlobster on 2/22/2013 11:20 AM PST
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
Currently, on live, being able to Jab-Jab-Uplift is simply too efficient and good. The numbers put out border on ridiculous, making it almost mandatory to do so for any fight, and our mana simply doesn't move. The only reason monks were brought into raids was for this ridiculous amount of AoE.


If this is the case why are mistweavers not kings of the meters? Or even close to being kings of the meters. Answer: it isn't the case. Sure disc is being nerfed but on the vast majority of current encounters disc isn't the only spec putting out higher numbers than mistweavers. That is just the raw healing numbers without even considering the fact that every other healing spec brings more useful tools outside of healing than mistweavers do.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6860
Currently, on live, being able to Jab-Jab-Uplift is simply too efficient and good. The numbers put out border on ridiculous, making it almost mandatory to do so for any fight, and our mana simply doesn't move. The only reason monks were brought into raids was for this ridiculous amount of AoE.


If this is the case why are mistweavers not kings of the meters? Or even close to being kings of the meters. Answer: it isn't the case. Sure disc is being nerfed but on the vast majority of current encounters disc isn't the only spec putting out higher numbers than mistweavers. That is just the raw healing numbers without even considering the fact that every other healing spec brings more useful tools outside of healing than mistweavers do.

Oh hey, it's the hysterical chick.

I never said we are kings of the meters. You're making massive exaggerations, and are glossing over the bulk of my argument. My point is, JJUplift was powerful and cheap. Where other healers would be oom by spamming PoH, we can just keep up the combo and still feel pretty comfortable. The numbers from Uplift are big, and for good reason, as it's our AoE. The issue was that by using JJUplift, it renders most of the rest of our kit moot.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
12775
02/22/2013 11:40 AMPosted by Fistlobster
My point is, JJUplift was powerful and cheap. Where other healers would be oom by spamming PoH, we can just keep up the combo and still feel pretty comfortable. The numbers from Uplift are big, and for good reason, as it's our AoE. The issue was that by using JJUplift, it renders most of the rest of our kit moot.
Powerful yes, cheap, not that much. Jab did add up, and if they weren't too lazy to fix the bug from the 5.1 hotfixes, it would definitely not have been sustainable. On certain fights, there are huge, extended periods of AOE damage. My mana bar actually does take a noticeable hit as it should. Had I gone with 12k or more spirit, maybe not, but that would require foregoing haste and crit, changing my playstyle into being an overhealing mindless drone since that would have rendered the other spells such as enveloping mist and renewing mists much weaker than what I'm getting right now, resulting in lower numbers in real play. Which, I guess means I'm agreeing with your last sentence. The rest of the kit would be moot by using JJUplift.

But I'm starting to see we're still going to be making a good portion of our toolkit moot. They're making it so you will either solely heal or you will do half (if we're lucky) the damage of a dps and half the heals of a healer. You will not be able to both at the same time, and no raid wants the second option. They would replace you with a dps or with a healer, depending on the fight. All they've done is make zeal-weaving impossible and leaving us to rely on RNG even more than we already do. No healer wants that and no raid wants that either.

All I know is that they have a lot more tweaking to do and not much time left.
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My point is, JJUplift was powerful and cheap. Where other healers would be oom by spamming PoH, we can just keep up the combo and still feel pretty comfortable. The numbers from Uplift are big, and for good reason, as it's our AoE. The issue was that by using JJUplift, it renders most of the rest of our kit moot.
Powerful yes, cheap, not that much. Jab did add up, and if they weren't too lazy to fix the bug from the 5.1 hotfixes, it would definitely not have been sustainable. On certain fights, there are huge, extended periods of AOE damage. My mana bar actually does take a noticeable hit as it should. Had I gone with 12k or more spirit, maybe not, but that would require foregoing haste and crit, changing my playstyle into being an overhealing mindless drone since that would have rendered the other spells such as enveloping mist and renewing mists much weaker than what I'm getting right now, resulting in lower numbers in real play. Which, I guess means I'm agreeing with your last sentence. The rest of the kit would be moot by using JJUplift.

But I'm starting to see we're still going to be making a good portion of our toolkit moot. They're making it so you will either solely heal or you will do half (if we're lucky) the damage of a dps and half the heals of a healer. You will not be able to both at the same time, and no raid wants the second option. They would replace you with a dps or with a healer, depending on the fight. All they've done is make zeal-weaving impossible and leaving us to rely on RNG even more than we already do. No healer wants that and no raid wants that either.

All I know is that they have a lot more tweaking to do and not much time left.


But they already did.

we also changed Soothing Mist to generate chi more consistently (to avoid long stretches of bad luck) and increased its generation rate overall


Not sure what more you want that wouldn't be borderlline OP.
Edited by Haotori on 2/22/2013 1:54 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
12775
They didn't spell out how they plan it to be more consistent, and from what I read on MMOChampion today, it's no different. It's still 30%, based on RNG, unless they make it so every third tick WILL result in a chi.

A post or two said they went a full channel with just one chi, and another channel with 5 chi. How's that better? That happens now.
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They didn't spell out how they plan it to be more consistent, and from what I read on MMOChampion today, it's no different. It's still 30%, based on RNG, unless they make it so every third tick WILL result in a chi.

A post or two said they went a full channel with just one chi, and another channel with 5 chi. How's that better? That happens now.


we also changed Soothing Mist to generate chi more consistently (to avoid long stretches of bad luck) and increased its generation rate overall


Well there they say they increased its generation rate. Are you looking for % numbers? Any increase is better than now. And even NOW its not as horrible as some say. Sure if you're going to sit there and JUST use SM and nothing else you can go a cast once in a while with 1 chi gained. But you'd have to be mind-numblingly stupid NOT to make use of the rest of your toolbox. Expel Harm and RM come to mind.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
12775
02/22/2013 02:11 PMPosted by Haotori
Well there they say they increased its generation rate. Are you looking for % numbers? Any increase is better than now. And even NOW its not as horrible as some say. Sure if you're going to sit there and JUST use SM and nothing else you can go a cast once in a while with 1 chi gained. But you'd have to be mind-numblingly stupid NOT to make use of the rest of your toolbox. Expel Harm and RM come to mind.
LOL I know that, zeal weavers use those too, jabbing when appropriate, not blindly. And by the same token, it has been mind-numbingly stupid to not make use of jab. It costs less and it's a guaranteed chi generator on one GCD, and can be used when EH and RM are on CD.

The odd thing about this "buff" is that their plan is to remove jab-jab-uplift from the toolkit. Making zealweaving that was superior in numbers only to other playstyles of mistweavers and druids, less desireable or at best, on par with ranged mistweaving, does not make the class on par with any other healers.
Edited by Habreberry on 2/22/2013 2:33 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
12775
OH and yes, I am looking for % numbers or if they are increasing the generation by a different method, like maybe the warlock soul shard way. I don't want simple text saying, we're increasing it but leaving out the methods of increase. They mention other % and methods and costs, why can't they with this?
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90 Blood Elf Monk
7725
Saw this on MMO champion, got a good chuckle.

Soothing is now more reliable; it is now a reliable 30% vs 30%.

Bolded for that special emphasis.
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Being a ranged monk to me is a little like trying to be a melee mage. Maybe it would help to understand why some people are so insistent on healing at range.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
7810
(This is Fistlobster, just server transferred, and I'm waiting for her to become available)

I see this as, while they're making JJUplift unviable, it's more to make more of a distinction between fist- and mistweaving, and giving them both their opportunities to shine. I always thought of fistweaving as a low-mana alternative to points of fights where there isn't too much damage going out and the tank healer can sustain what damage there is going out, or on gimmick fights where damage and healing is boosted, like Elegon. But that's my opinion, and I understand that.

I understand the value fistweaving has, and by taking JJUplift out, it does hurt common rotations now. But Blizz has put its foot down and said they don't want fistweaving to be on par with standard healing (it does contribute valuable damage in addition to heals), so there really isn't much for us to do but, as REO Speedwagon recommends, roll with the changes.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
7810
Saw this on MMO champion, got a good chuckle.

Soothing is now more reliable; it is now a reliable 30% vs 30%.

Bolded for that special emphasis.

Don't be absurd. The post specifically says they're increasing the generation rate.
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