Jab mana cost increased again~

90 Blood Elf Monk
12775
Saw this on MMO champion, got a good chuckle.

Soothing is now more reliable; it is now a reliable 30% vs 30%.

Bolded for that special emphasis.
I saw that too XD It's like showing up to a raid 50% of the time, but when people say you're unreliable, you retort with, no, I'm reliably there 50% of the time.
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02/22/2013 03:07 PMPosted by Deathlobster
I understand the value fistweaving has, and by taking JJUplift out, it does hurt common rotations now. But Blizz has put its foot down and said they don't want fistweaving to be on par with standard healing


It's so weird, but I never even considered that there is nor should be a distinction between mistweaving and "fistweaving". We are healing monks. I use jab to reliably build chi, others use Soothing Mist and hope they get chi. Occasionally I used the Soothing Mist route when I absolutely had to for raid mechanics.

One has clearly been better this tier though, so why wouldn't you just do the better thing? If they told me I had to wear bunny ears to heal efficiently, I'd be wearing bunny ears.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8880
02/22/2013 11:19 AMPosted by Fistlobster
You're right, I suppose -- depending on fight, gear, etc. But looking from LFR (I've only just started 10-mans with a new guild ... issues), and even on my DPS toon, I've seen Monks stagger behind Shammy's (a given), Priests, and Paladins. Druids are the only healing class I've seen that Monk's have the opportunity to surpass.

See, I've had the opposite effect. I spent the entirity of the first part of HoF in LFR fistweaving, and I topped the scales, and always had mana to spare. I was fistweaving in the sense of ReM on CD, Jab-Jab-Uplift, and Serpent's Zeal. By far, my biggest heals were through Uplift. This isn't to say I never ran close to OoM, but I always felt incredibly comfortable. That shouldn't have been happening as a fistweaver, and that's what these changes address.

LFR is a poor indicator of class balance, definitely, but it still serves a point.


Yes it is a poor indicator no it doesn't serve a point. If your analysis in general was based upon some kind of math it might be worthwhile. Posting HYSTERICAL, IT'S FREE etc based upon anecdotal lfr experience is indeed worthless on balance and mechanic issues. Your insulting tone is unwarranted as well. Have you ever healed a heroic or even normal mode raid instance. The step up in raid damage is huge. At times a missed GCD, momentary lapse in concentration or fat fingered raid cool down means a wipe. Blizzard balances pve around heroic raid requirements not lfr.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8140
I'd like to open by saying I consider myself a relatively good MW, backed by earning my spot in the progression guild I'm currently in, and via comparison to other MW and logs on WoL and the consistency of my ranks.

I'm not really sorry when I say this, but soothing mist is not viable in bleeding-edge progression raiding. I'm fine if you prefer it, but that's really irrelevant to the fact that RNG healing is not acceptable for progression raiding. Far more often then not Soothing Mist will leave me gasping for chi (hello full channel and no chi gained, when average should be 2.7 chi, hello spamming the ability for five seconds and gaining no chi, when average should be 3 chi) and extremely rarely have I actually had it give me more than I wanted. This is because our healing is entirely based around chi. Soothing Mist and jab have pitifully low healing, and frankly how you prefer generating chi doesnt matter, because ultimately the real thing that needs to be noticed is >generating chi<. Our entire healing process is generating chi. You have a choice between high chi generation, medium chi generation with a non-insignificant amount of blanket AoE healing, or slow as hell and pitiful healing chi generation. If our healing was balanced around soothing mist chi generation rates + uplift as "base healing level", and then increase via either jab or SCK (because choices are important to interesting gameplay) it would be relatively sensible design at first though. There are a few problems we now encounter.
First, balancing our throughput around SoM/uplift to pick up raids means uplift will need to heal as much as what is effectively a 2 chi spell cast time, or .3 chi/s*haste => approximately a six second cast time spell (seven when you factor in the GCD for uplift). This means uplift would essentially need to heal for 2x what it does now. Then, you can balance us around an increased mana cost jab/SCK for faster chi gen and thus faster AoE heals. This is not how it is designed however. We are completely reliant on jab for 3s uplifts, which allow us to be competitive with other classes. This means that using SoM gives around 1/2 the HPS(e) for picking people up comparing to jab. In other words, this takes us from competitive to 50% power. (This is an estimation. In reality uplift is around 30-40% of our healing, and this would bring us to ~80% power, as well as being much less able to reactively heal [which is a requirement of healers...but lets ignore that for now] and much less able to weave in chi torpedo etc.)

Second, and more importantly, this isn't how we are designed. For uplift to be balanced around 7s equivalent cast time, it would need to be nearly twice as powerful. This would be absolutely absurd. Uplifts would reach 1 million in this coming tier without TFT, and TFT'd uplifts would reach nearly 2 million. Thats similar to the power of revival. This would make our burst healing EXTRAORDINARILY powerful (easily bursting 2million healing in 2 globals by storing chi? That's broken) while making our sustained healing...still really bad. The reactive healing we would get is 100k from soothing mist (including statue) and then 700k from uplift, over seven seconds. This is 800,000/7s ~ 114k hps. Now factor in the absurd rates of overhealing MW universally have due to mechanical issues (around 40%+, and this isnt even assuming uplift would gain more overhealing due to it's increased strength and delayed response time) and we go to 68.6k hps. Compared to current jab healing, we get 24k from jab and 350k from uplift every 3s or: 374k/3s ~ 124.7k hps => factor 40% overhealing => 74.8k hps. Even doubling the power of uplift, all else constant, soothing mist is less powerful while also being less reliable, and it would be a stretch to assume it could stand in for jab if we doubled uplift. (Yes, these numbers are flawed, and you would have to factor in that ReM/EH chi would still provide more powerful uplifts overall, making the soothing case win. However, one potential solution to make SoM closer to on par with jab is to give a buff upon every 7 ticks which doubles your next uplift healing. This would make optimal healing much more complex (and a slight buff), while also allowing pure fistweaving, pure mistweaving, and a zealweaving hybrid to exist (assuming muscle memory in the form of simply the 150% damage buff exists). As it currently stands, the only real viable way to heal in next patch is going to be SCK in heroic progression raiding. Will alternative methods be "viable" or "playable" in less intense healing moments? Sure. But that doesn't mean

Now I'm not here to say that you're all wrong or that your experiences don't matter, but from a bleeding edge progression standpoint, most of you have little experience of the relative strengths of other healers. You could easily have a druid out-healing everyone right now (the weakest healer), simply because he is a significantly better player than anyone else. More likely, as you're reading this forum, you probably put more effort into playing than many others, and will see yourself (or disc priests because they're utterly broken) near the top of meters. In progression raiding, MW are hardly the most viable or powerful healers. Reducing our healing effectiveness by nearly 20% when we are already considered underpowered...what?

As for jab/jab/uplift making the rest of our toolkit moot...WHAT TOOLKIT?!? I mean seriously here. Enveloping mist? It sucks because it's a HoT greater heal with extraordinarily high overhealing even comparing to most MW spells, while hardly being any stronger than most other greater heals. Uplift? Chi burst? The two are interchangeable, and actually require some thought to use optimally (chi burst on low ReM/if ReM targets are high HP.) What else can we use chi on? Maybe substitute in chi wave and remove chi burst? Still three spells. The first spell invalidates itself because it is, frankly, worthless. The other two spells are A: one is used (uplift), and B: used in niche situations (tank healing via chi wave, vs. chi burst depending. Those are the only healing options. The other ones are smart heals such as TP/BK, and they are just as invalidated next patch as they are now (used niche to smart heal someone in close range).

So yeah, I really fail to see how jab/jab/uplift "makes the rest of our toolkit moot", because say whatever you'd like, but it pretty much "IS" our toolkit.

PS: SCK can be substituted for jab at nearly equivalent healing values and mana usage. SoM will continue to be useless next patch. Jab will be utterly gutted. What was accomplished for MW played optimally? We made MW extremely binary by reducing choices on both sides of the mana/chi paradigm, made them very, very, very, very bad at spread healing (SCK is only really a good alternative if you're stacked, I admit), and made them less reactive and (personally speaking) less fun.

I fail to see how anything positive was accomplished here.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
7725
Prediction for the future before patch is released:

Jab will be increased to 10%, but the mana return on TP will be only increased to 5%.
then
Soothing proc rate will be increased to a point equivalent to Jab due to QQ/necessity, making soothing spam>uplift the only way to heal
then
Soothing mana increased by 100%, proc rate reduced to 10% under the explanation that "we don't want soothing soothing uplift to be the only way to heal"
then
Jab Costs 100 Golden Lotus Rep, Uplift costs 10 valor

5.2 Hits, enjoy
Edited by Kungfuwaifu on 2/22/2013 3:59 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
6735
What if they made muscle memory stack up to a max of 2 charges that way when you BoK or another move that uses more than one chi its not a huge a loss? Somewhat like how mind spike works with priest talents.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10965
I just think Jab should have been left alone. Was it really bothering anybody, truly? The way MW is expected for 5.2 puts us between a rock and a hard place.

This design is bad, and you should feel bad.
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90 Human Monk
15600
02/22/2013 04:52 PMPosted by Wastinglove
What if they made muscle memory stack up to a max of 2 charges that way when you BoK or another move that uses more than one chi its not a huge a loss? Somewhat like how mind spike works with priest talents.


I was thinking about that as well. They probably don't want us to be able to drop two +150% damage attacks back-to-back though in the event we went jab, jab, TP, TP.
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90 Human Priest
6735
What if they made muscle memory stack up to a max of 2 charges that way when you BoK or another move that uses more than one chi its not a huge a loss? Somewhat like how mind spike works with priest talents.


I was thinking about that as well. They probably don't want us to be able to drop two +150% damage attacks back-to-back though in the event we went jab, jab, TP, TP.


Well what I mean is that both charges would instantly be used on your next move. So if you jab jab then TP it would use both charges and you would get 8% mana back for that one TP that way using a BoK would not be such a loss.
Edited by Wastinglove on 2/22/2013 5:21 PM PST
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90 Human Monk
15600
Ah, I see. That makes sense.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13165


Currently, on live, being able to Jab-Jab-Uplift is simply too efficient and good. The numbers put out border on ridiculous, making it almost mandatory to do so for any fight, and our mana simply doesn't move. The only reason monks were brought into raids was for this ridiculous amount of AoE.


Too efficient and good compared to what? Too ridiculous compared to what? Other healers, or other parts of the MW kit? What exactly is OP?

If "the only reason Monks were brought to raids was for this ridiculous amount of AoE", what exactly changes if it's replaced with Soothing > Uplift? Moreover, if that AoE is removed, what are they brought for?

This is my core problem here. It literally doesn't make any sense that they are effectively punishing "fistweaving" for being better in most situations than ranged healing because they didn't bother to flesh out the ranged kit. Expel Harm, ReM...those are all just fine in melee, so it's really down to Jab vs Soothing every time, and NO ONE is going to prefer RNG over certainty, especially when already dealing with ReM RNG. People are just gonna start using SCK again for the 100% chance of Chi (plus being able to move) instead unless Soothing is truly amazing now (I doubt that). And if it is? They'll just use Soothing exclusively.

Also, why does Blizzard seem to hate JabxJab+Uplift but love Soothing + Uplift again?
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90 Pandaren Monk
7390
I'd like to open by saying I consider myself a relatively good MW, backed by earning my spot in the progression guild I'm currently in, and via comparison to other MW and logs on WoL and the consistency of my ranks.
..................
I fail to see how anything positive was accomplished here.


i love this post, not just because i agree with you, but because you actually used some numbers and data to prove your point. it has made me think greater about the ways in which i use my monk.

can you be our new monk forum mascot? im really tired of a certain MW's short, in-concise, and frankly rude responses that really dont add much to the conversation.

i love monk healing. I dont want to just be "op". i want to make a difference in the raid when it counts.

also, i think an issue with the discussion in the thread is the difference between 10 man and 25 man, which should not be ignored. 10 man monk healers have far different needs than 25 man monk healers.
Edited by Bill on 2/22/2013 8:19 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
8880
I'd like to open by saying I consider myself a relatively good MW, backed by earning my spot in the progression guild I'm currently in, and via comparison to other MW and logs on WoL and the consistency of my ranks.
..................
I fail to see how anything positive was accomplished here.


i love this post, not just because i agree with you, but because you actually used some numbers and data to prove your point. it has made me think greater about the ways in which i use my monk.

can you be our new monk forum mascot? im really tired of a certain MW's short, in-concise, and frankly rude responses that really dont add much to the conversation.

i love monk healing. I dont want to just be "op". i want to make a difference in the raid when it counts.

also, i think an issue with the discussion in the thread is the difference between 10 man and 25 man, which should not be ignored. 10 man monk healers have far different needs than 25 man monk healers.


As a 10 man raider you do use SoM quite a bit because it is the only way to single target heal. Instant cast Surge/EnV is just to valuable. That being said jabbing for chi is still important when dry and going into high damage. In my mind knowing when to switch over was a sign of skill and knowledge of the fight. Just like predicting raid wide damage and using TFT. SoM also lead to speccing chi brew on occasion for bad RNG patches even though brew is mathematically inferior.

Going into this patch it seemed like the stated intent was to buff fistiing a bit. This whole jab is only for fisting comes out of left field. Would love to hear the motive behind the intent. Based upon the numbers available to the community it seems unwarranted. If you think we are op would love to see where you get that data.
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90 Pandaren Monk
17775
I am a 10 man raider on the casual side (no bleeding edge raids here) and only 25 mans i do is LFR. If im wrong with certain things by all means someone please point it out rather then just flaming this post.

Two of the biggest problem i find with 10 man healing (2 heals every fight) are.
1.) Single target healing, Heavy dmg fights where tanks are being demolished and uplift is worthless at that point so SoM/SurgingM/EnvM are a neccessity (chi wave also but most times EnvM is better unless already on target) Currently Fistweaving in my oppnion is not strong enough at all to keep a person alive during a situation like this. I do not think this is the case because it looks like they nerfed healing upped dmg which is just a wash at this point, it just makes our dps numbers look higher (correct me if im wrong).

2.) What i call On Demand Chi - Someone took some heavy single target dmg right before mass aoe dmg is about to occur, SoM is completely worthless at getting chi back at that point due to the terrible current RNG to it. So at this point you are stuck making sure you use EH / RnM, if both are up (which RnM should already be on cd in prep for the mass aoe / TFT also), or to jab for the on demand chi. but this concept will now be lost.

I have not tested beta yet but looking at numbers it may seem blizz is trying to make fistweaving a more viable option for single target smart healing? Also the fix to SoM really needs to either remove the RNG totally (or maybe every x tick you get a chi with y% chance to "crit" and get 2 chi) ok ok that maybe a little to OP but atleast its more of a steady gain of chi. Or if you spend a whole channel and get less then 2 chi your next chi using ability requires no chi.

Currently where it stands 4 seconds of SoM is same cost as 1 jab (1 is instant 1 is 4 seconds) way i see it SoM should product 2x the amount of chi of jab for anyone to find it useful to spam for 4 seconds vs using 1 gcd, instead of fixing SoM and they nerf Jab forcing it to be used only for melee unless you want to waste 24k mana just for 1 chi where SoM full channel is 17k mana rounded up(6ish second channel).

It seems like they want to further the distance between being a Fistweaver vs Mistweaver, i thought the objective was for us to be able to swap seamlessly between the two methods of healing, but apparently that is only ment for druids / holy priests / shamans . It seems like they are big on RNG with us (crit% to get 2x brew, SoM) if they really want to keep the current structor then they really should add some RNG to jab to allow crit% chance to generate 2 chi, this way we can still TP for mana return from MM and still generate 1x extra chi for mistweaving abilites or if low dmg another fistweaver ability. I know i know more RNG but it seems like bliz loves RNG on monks for some reason.

Also the change to our mastery/healing spheres is interesting but i still feel like this is going to be wasted, 30 seconds mastery orbs blow up and 1 min for dealing spheres, way to much RNG on if that heal will be worthless or not. Why not give us an ability that lets us blow them up on demand but add a CD to the ability?

I just feel like blizzard felt changes needed to be done but really didnt know what to change or HOW to change it so they just closed their eyes and pointed at spells. look at priest changes (20% nerf to all healing, then a passive that upps their healing by 25%) so a net gain of 5% healing..... all that work just to say that.
Edited by Zexualharas on 2/23/2013 7:54 AM PST
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02/22/2013 10:27 PMPosted by Glaurfu
As a 10 man raider you do use SoM quite a bit because it is the only way to single target heal.


Healing Spheres...Clunky to use but way better.
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90 Gnome Monk
14455

look at priest changes (20% nerf to all healing, then a passive that upps their healing by 25%) so a net gain of 5% healing..... all that work just to say that.


it's actually no change at all.

20% nerf brings it down to 80%; a 25% increase to 80% = 80%+.25*80% = 80%+20% = 100%

And it was to lower shadow priest healing; they reduced priest base healing but allowed disc / holy priests to see no change by use of a spec-specific passive.
Edited by Myko on 2/23/2013 9:51 AM PST
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90 Gnome Monk
14455
My disc priest can DPS entire fights and do roughly 50-60k DPS while simultaneously maintaining ~70k HPS (at a 40 yard smart healing range).

I've felt that my monk, on the other hand, has severely limited fistweaving healing as a result of the 20 yard range requirement on the statue. I hope the changes bring my monk up to (or even surpass) the healing abilities of atonement, since we are being asked to choose between DPS-healing or just healing, where as a priest is encouraged to DPS and heal (with the wings ability).
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90 Blood Elf Monk
12775
02/23/2013 09:40 AMPosted by Seshel
As a 10 man raider you do use SoM quite a bit because it is the only way to single target heal.


Healing Spheres...Clunky to use but way better.
yep, although now that i finally have 4 pc, i am giving enveloping mists a shot on le shi and sha, but still, the only time I use soothing is to quickly apply that, or an emergency surging if need be. I've never, nor will I ever, fully channel it. It's not fun in the slightest, not to mention that whole rng thing. Which, even if improved, it's still unreliable. SCK it is. Now, how to convince the ranged to be stacked with melee except for certain mechanics they get targeted for? Even if they don't, it'll heal a few people while giving me chi.
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90 Pandaren Monk
9735
Awesome...so if you wanna Blackout Kick...you can't Jab Jab Blackout Kick...would be a HUGE waste of mana!

At the cost of Jab...for Mistweavers...it should heal for 100% of damage...it's damage is pitiful anyway...why not?
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