The Battle for Kun-Lai [Thurs]

90 Pandaren Priest
10455
02/22/2013 08:30 PMPosted by Catelynne
I'm actually switching to a priest for PvP. :D

o/
90 Troll Warlock
12330
I felt as though organization really shined, at least on Horde side, and I felt like we were actually making progress towards something, instead of the usual "AoE until everyone is dead" cluster#%@$.

I may not have brought more than a handful of people, but from what I can tell, they were courteous and well mannered, and I didn't hear a single complaint out of any one of them.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
14545
I'm not quite sure how to further communicate. I had posted in thread, broadcasted on realID, and through whispers. I mean I guess I could be on a vent talking to people consistantly but at some point I'm just going to hope that leaders control and lead their soldiers. From what I saw the Alliance was effective yet disorganized. It was similar to a large mob pouring down on people.

I mean you guys had us pinned with no way out and had superior numbers. Then people started to bail? Of course that's going to make everyone else who was attending fail. I know things can get hectic, but for all that is good, it's a freaking battle. Of course things are going to get choppy. Leadership shines in the face of adversity. I know that my soldiers are well disciplined because we experience these events a lot and I have that HIGH expectation of them.

There were a lot of badass Alliance fighters out there. I mean they really handed our butts to us. But if you're upset because you got corpse camp for a bit (Trust me, I was on a 2 minute res timer most of the fight) then I don't know what to tell you. These things happen despite factions. That is what battles entail.
It is up to the organizers of this event to ensure communication is followed through on, and the participating guilds to be apart of it.

To run a large scale RP/PVP world event you NEED to be on vent with the other leaders to give out commands. This way you wont have communication mix ups.

Chat boxes get missed, whispers get missed. These events are HUGE.

However this is not only the responsibility of the organizer, but the guild leaders or their officers who are taking charge of their guilds as well. Communication is a two way street, you can't communicate to an empty wall. So if you are going to complain about communication being poor. Please ask yourselves...

What could -I- have done better, to make this enjoyable for -my- guild/players. And the players around me. This is a community event, not a single lead event. You have had weeks notice. If things were getting to a point where miscommunication was a problem, get on vent right away.

To say I trusted in the other guild leaders abilities. (Not meaning to be rude here) but you can not trust in anyone's abilities but your own. EVERYONE communicates differently.

To pull out of an event because communication was lacking? Well stop slacking yourselves. It's EVERYONE'S responsibility to communicate not just one persons.

As for corpse camping.... (Will probably get in trouble for this ...) Buck up! ... Suck it up! ... Grow some thick skin. Someone /spits on you? Yes they spat on you... But who cares, it's their emote, brush it off.

Corpse camping? Some people will be meanie faces... What can you do about that? *Right click Deflag* ... /gasp! What a concept! If you have to do that, then do it. Screen shot who was doing these things and if they are not apart of the event, and are trolls, well...

Dem mons no be me blue mons buh dey can be dead mons!

To complain about minor things that are out of the people who are running it or your guild leader/officers control, is honestly not worth it. Yes it sucks. Yes it can be a tick off... But it only ruins the event/day if YOU let it.

So enjoy the RP, enjoy the people you are playing with, leave drama at the log in screen, put on some thicker skin paint, and enjoy an event.

To think there are not flaws or issues going to arise, and have no patience for them is not fair to the organizers or your guild leaders.

If you are mad at the organization, look to your guild leader/officers first (People running your guild group for this), then others second. It's up to THEM to communicate with you, not the organizer. Them signing up for it, or coming along puts the responsibility into their hands, not others.
100 Human Warrior
13945
I did get the feeling multiple times through the event that I was the only person Alliance side who was actually trying to work with Felthier. One instance I vividly recall was after we first wiped the horde raids, when I was talking to Felthier about splitting up both sides.

When I brought it up in the leader OOC channel, I actually got multiple responses saying things along the lines of 'screw what Felthier wants we're just gonna do our own thing'.

It seems silly to me for people to complain about a lack of communication when there were Alliance leaders actively refusing to work with the event coordinator.
Edited by Danyl on 2/22/2013 11:02 PM PST
100 Human Warrior
10720
You can hardly blame the people who are trying for "not trying hard enough".

When Danyl gave the command to fall back, I stopped fighting mid-fight. I was tunneling some rogue on 19% health but I just stopped and heroic leaped over to Danyl and pulled back. I didn't keep chasing the rogue just because I had execute up or because I couldn't let him go. I followed orders because I'm not 12.

Many others simply ignored orders. It's not for a lack of communication.
90 Pandaren Hunter
10685
I did get the feeling multiple times through the event that I was the only person Alliance side who was actually trying to work with Felthier. One instance I vividly recall was after we first wiped the horde raids, when I was talking to Felthier about splitting up both sides.

When I brought it up in the leader OOC channel, I actually got multiple responses saying things along the lines of 'screw what Felthier wants we're just gonna do our own thing'.

It seems silly to me for people to complain about a lack of communication when there were Alliance leaders actively refusing to work with the event coordinator.


I'm sorry, but I was trying to speak to him for weeks. That includes during the event. Zuchen and I both. I had volunteered to be the voice for this and I was working hard to get everything set. We offered plans and other suggestions to even out the playing field so it was less of a mess.

I had to put my guys on hold because we couldn't even fall back after rezzing. We had no warning the horde were starting. We didn't even have a full raid when you all attacked. When people started dropping we had no choice because our small group became severely outnumbered.

I pressed these matters and people just wanted to fight. There's nothing I can do about that. I apologize if I'm not up to some standard. But I did what I could. Zuchen did what he could to get people on the same page. It clearly didn't happen because stuff was getting missed.

There are things that could have been improved such as not letting people rez until one side was completely wiped. I suggest this because then we could have actually seen if either side was making any progress in the push.

"5. Once a faction has clearly been defeated, that faction's leaders will announce the wipe and each side will reset for another charge"

The resets couldn't be done clearly. Also suggest that leaders from both sides go into a vent channel so that messages aren't getting lost in whisper boxes. It's just quicker this way as well, and everyone can hear the same thing. Where one group was getting one message, it wasn't taken the same as the second group.

And those are just a couple of examples. So to say we were actively refusing to work with the coordinator is a lie. I'm sorry.
90 Blood Elf Mage
11465
So what could have been done better, in that regard? How were you attempting to contact Felthier, but were unable to? Is there a better channel of communication that would work easier for you in coordination, before, or during the events? If there is something we can do to rectify the situation, by all means, please offer your suggestions. While I know Felthier doesn't want to have to hold hands through an entire event, if there are ways that we can increase the flow of communication between factions and you have ideas, I'm sure the coordinators would be more than willing to try to come up with a way to facilitate them.

That said, as for the "clearly defeated" remark, even tonight there were a few instances of this. The initial push into the ruins courtyards is a good example - our first raid was defeated, our second raid moved in, our second raid defeated your raid, etc. The "Clearly defeated" situation becomes fairly obvious when there are no friendlies left alive in the area and it's completely occupied by hostiles. The larger skirmishes (In the tombs, for example) lasted a lot longer - there was less overall attrition on either side, so those that did die had time to run back and regroup with the current forces. When a force was broken, they got cleaned up pretty quickly, and it was obvious that force was broken. That's more-or-less how things have been for the last several PvP events, outside of the specialized ruleset battles.

The unfortunate drawback to that situation is that people who weren't in direct communication on either faction (Either missing raid warnings, not in vent, not paying attention to proper chat channels, etc.) wouldn't catch on to the fact that we were doing a reset. Unfortunately in that situation there's not much we can do except repeat ourselves that the other team is regrouping - this lead to a bit of perceived corpse camping/res-ganking. This happened on both sides, too - I got killed twice trying to get back to my group after being stomped on. We die, we move on, and we hope that people will listen. Such is the nature of World PvP.

But I digress. Other than the previously suggested during-event vent communication, if any of the upset parties have a better idea on how to communicate information between factions and raid groups, please bring it forward. Felthier puts a lot of time and sweat into this stuff and already has a busy life - he just wants everyone to have fun and participate in an enjoyable event, like the rest of us. If you have suggestions, bring 'em forward. We'll see what we can do.
90 Pandaren Hunter
10685
From my old experiences we had both factions' leaders in one vent. This way we could give warnings and both sides could verify when they're ready. There was no clear definition of "we're attacking at 8pm". At least from my raid's perspective. Because we didn't even have a full raid as I said before. I can't speak for the one in the back. This would also help give some light to a lot of us who were dead and couldn't see what was going on. Because I couldn't see the outcomes personally. It wasn't clear to me who was winning what. Just that I was being killed as I got up and tried to get out of the way.

We appreciate stuff like this being put up. And the effort of the event doesn't go unnoticed.
90 Blood Elf Mage
11465
That's a fair observation. What about pre-event coordination?
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
14545
From my old experiences we had both factions' leaders in one vent. This way we could give warnings and both sides could verify when they're ready. There was no clear definition of "we're attacking at 8pm". At least from my raid's perspective. Because we didn't even have a full raid as I said before. I can't speak for the one in the back. This would also help give some light to a lot of us who were dead and couldn't see what was going on. Because I couldn't see the outcomes personally. It wasn't clear to me who was winning what. Just that I was being killed as I got up and tried to get out of the way.

We appreciate stuff like this being put up. And the effort of the event doesn't go unnoticed.
You.have to understand that you were not the only faction leaders there. I had around a dozen of guild leaders and officers to work with. Overall the Alliance were extremely well positioned and prepared. When I have 200 players moving at once. Most had a great time and saw a lot of good action. It wasn't till a small minority became very vocal and left. That pretty much promises that the rest of their factioned was defeated.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
14545
on my cellphone. sorry if some of my phrasing is difficult
100 Human Warlock
16565
-deleted-
Edited by Cladriah on 2/23/2013 4:53 AM PST
100 Human Warrior
10720
Let's not talk like that. The previous event wasn't bad. It was good.

Being able to improve doesn't make something bad in my honest opinion.
Edited by Standhaft on 2/23/2013 4:52 AM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
9665
02/22/2013 08:09 PMPosted by Felthier
I was doing my best to juggle the Alliance raids. I know I was speaking to several people consistently. In the future, I'll just be on vent or something with them.


This. Always should have been like this. Always. I use to dual vent just to make sure Sha'nash knew what was going on as well. I had to tell them that i would be muting that vent so I might hear what was going on in the vent with the leaders, but it worked. Rather well.

And Mae is totally right, these things are HUGE! It takes a lot to put them on. It also takes people stepping up and saying "Hey, let me help you out." People that step up and do that really sets themselves apart from everyone else.

And honestly, doing what we use to do in Cata for the five months of leading up to Theramore would be a good idea. One raid for the actual Storyline RP-PvP and then the two raids of world PvP. Yep, you would have to split some people up for the Storyline Rp-PvP, but then again, you want your cream of the crop of that. Step on toes if need be. I think most people on Alliance side know I sure as hell don't have an issue doing that.

And when Wargames are suggested, allow someone to chat the idea out with you. Wargames would of been a -great- way to deal with the lagfest people were dealing with. Yep, more toes being stepped on, but you do what needs to be done.
100 Blood Elf Warlock
10620
02/23/2013 04:51 AMPosted by Ashenli
I was doing my best to juggle the Alliance raids. I know I was speaking to several people consistently. In the future, I'll just be on vent or something with them.


This. Always should have been like this. Always. I use to dual vent just to make sure Sha'nash knew what was going on as well. I had to tell them that i would be muting that vent so I might hear what was going on in the vent with the leaders, but it worked. Rather well.

And Mae is totally right, these things are HUGE! It takes a lot to put them on. It also takes people stepping up and saying "Hey, let me help you out." People that step up and do that really sets themselves apart from everyone else.

And honestly, doing what we use to do in Cata for the five months of leading up to Theramore would be a good idea. One raid for the actual Storyline RP-PvP and then the two raids of world PvP. Yep, you would have to split some people up for the Storyline Rp-PvP, but then again, you want your cream of the crop of that. Step on toes if need be. I think most people on Alliance side know I sure as hell don't have an issue doing that.

And when Wargames are suggested, allow someone to chat the idea out with you. Wargames would of been a -great- way to deal with the lagfest people were dealing with. Yep, more toes being stepped on, but you do what needs to be done.

Constant vent communication between opposing sides is completely unnecessary. The problems the Alliance had are as Danyl said, everyone wanting to take control and no one listening. Also wargames go completely against the open world pvp that The Kun Lai campaign is there to create.
90 Blood Elf Priest
15865
I'd also like to add that I attempted to get in on the Horde side of the event at one point but was told that it was "full" -

Reading this thread where people were being outnumbered that...doesn't really seem to be the case here.
I'd assume there was just a huge massive jumble going on amongst the whole cluster of phasing issues and the other...issues that were happening but seeing people complain about one side being outnumbered when they wouldn't actually take more just seems kind of odd.

To add I was trying to get in to help on my main because I had heard that there were quite a few undergeared people and my warrior would have helped a hell of a lot more than my priest but still.
90 Blood Elf Warrior
13625
As the event progressed, more did come in to fill in the empty slots of the two raids. So yes, it did eventually get full. However, Alliance still dominated Horde significantly during the event in numbers and was very close to wiping us.

Raid 1, the shrine fighters, were pushed back and unable to enter further. Raid 2 outside was pushed back into the shrine by the Alliance. Eventually both raids were pushed into the shrine and cornered against the wall. Our numbers were dropping fast. Alliance was doing an excellent job taking us out until people started to bail.

It wasn't a big "cluster" like you described, Aelakor. Just because you were unable to get an invite due to there being only two full raids and nobody available to do a third one doesn't really say anything about organization. It just means you signed on late.
Edited by Aestiah on 2/23/2013 8:30 AM PST
90 Pandaren Hunter
10685
02/22/2013 11:55 PMPosted by Felthier
You.have to understand that you were not the only faction leaders there. I had around a dozen of guild leaders and officers to work with. Overall the Alliance were extremely well positioned and prepared. When I have 200 players moving at once. Most had a great time and saw a lot of good action. It wasn't till a small minority became very vocal and left. That pretty much promises that the rest of their factioned was defeated.


Then there needed to be one voice. Or a couple leaders that knew what truly was suppose to happen. Because, as I said before, not all of us were on the same page. Sure there are several faction leaders, but it helps to designate faction -event- leaders. That way people really know who they are -suppose- to be listening to.

02/23/2013 07:02 AMPosted by Cythe
Constant vent communication between opposing sides is completely unnecessary. The problems the Alliance had are as Danyl said, everyone wanting to take control and no one listening. Also wargames go completely against the open world pvp that The Kun Lai campaign is there to create.


It was was chaos. No one knew what the real commands were. I knew I was a rep for the Alliance, but no one told me there were others. So from my point of view they were trying to override what was suppose to happen. This is why vent is needed. So everyone is on the same page. And the wargrames isn't really unheard of. You go into a map say like AV and there's a flat area, 40 people on each team so there's no foul play. This allows splitting up the raids and no confusion as to where who is going when.

Everyone can sling whatever thoughts they want at people. But at this point guilds are going to take what happened in their own direction. In the end, the Horde got what they wanted. Suggestions have been made on how to improve next time. We need to just leave it at that.
90 Pandaren Hunter
10685
02/23/2013 08:30 AMPosted by Aestiah
As the event progressed, more did come in to fill in the empty slots of the two raids. So yes, it did eventually get full. However, Alliance still dominated Horde significantly during the event in numbers and was very close to wiping us.


There you're wrong. My raid that was sitting at the Tomb was not a full raid.
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