Holy Paladin T15 Set Bonuses

100 Human Paladin
13880
We're about a week or so away from the Throne of Thunder's arrival, yet I've seen so little talk regarding the new Holy Paladin set bonuses come the next tier. For those unfamiliar with them, here is the two set bonus:

Increases the healing done by your Daybreak ability by 50%.


And the four set bonus:

Increases the healing transferred to your Beacon of Light target by 20%.


I feel the two set bonus is fine, since it's a logical step up from Holy Radiance's reduced mana cost by granting the Holy Paladin pure throughput over mana efficiency. It's the four set bonus that rubs me the wrong way, though...

While the current four set bonus, a reduced cooldown on Holy Shock, provides an increase in throughput that stays consistent between all current-tier fights, Beacon of Light transferring 20% more healing is a set bonus that will vary much greater depending on the encounter. This bonus will definitely be powerful on fights where damage done to the tanks is high, but I'm worried that the increase in Beacon of Light transfers will only result in more over-healing done on any fight where the tanks aren't taking large consistent damage throughout the duration. After all, Beacon of Light is already one of my highest sources of over-healing on Live.

My bigger concern is with the decrease in Holy Power generation that comes with this set bonus. The current four set bonus is great because not only is it an excellent healing bonus, but it also makes the specialization play more smoothly. Holy Shock at a 6 second cooldown makes Holy Power generation feel sluggish for Holy Paladins, especially in comparison to Retribution or Protection. Slower resource generation really detracts from the experience of playing certain classes or specializations, and Holy Paladins without the four set bonus weren't as fun to play with, in my opinion. Abilities like Word of Glory/Eternal Flame and Light of Dawn are fun abilities to use, but such abilities will be less common now that Holy Power generation will be less frequent. We will be required to use underwhelming abilities like Holy Light and Divine Light to fill in downtime between Holy Shock usage, which I don't see being a good thing.

Let me emphasize that my issue isn't with having to hard-cast more, but from the lack of resource generation that makes the play style feel stale by comparison. In fact, I feel the core issue that the four set bonus change greatly emphasizes is how lacking Holy Power generation is for single target healing. Besides Holy Shock every 6 seconds, the only means to gain Holy Power while single target healing is to heal the Beacon of Light directly with Divine Light or Flash of Light. This, however, results in an overall lack of healing efficiency and output; unless the tank is in danger of dying, you should refrain from healing the Beacon of Light entirely and instead allow Divine Light/Flash of Light to transfer 50% additional healing over due to the increase in overall healing it provides. I won't even touch upon the awkward issue that Holy Light has with this four set bonus and how healing other targets with Holy Light besides the Beacon of Light actually provides greater healing to the Beacon of Light than healing the Beacon of Light itself directly.

It's sad to say that it's most likely too late to see any changes done to our upcoming four set bonus. I'll still most likely go after this four set bonus come the next tier, though I will be milking my current four set bonus for all that it's worth before doing so. I feel this jump in set bonuses will make it very clear to others that a major issue with Holy Paladin mechanics is a lack of efficient Holy Power generation when single target healing, and that a lack of this resource generation degrades the fun factor when playing the specialization as a whole.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
02/27/2013 01:38 PMPosted by Areos
though I will be milking my current four set bonus


Don't be shocked if they nerf the T14 set bonus right out of the gate like they are doing to priest t14. With the amount of EF blanketing this tier it wouldn't surprise me that they would. Maybe next tier will lead to more beacon swapping, who knows.

All in all i think it is a pretty good set bonus. Think that people just got a little spoiled with the reduction in shock which to me i could never figure out why they made that a set bonus in the first place as it is clearly going to change playstyle.
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100 Human Paladin
13880
though I will be milking my current four set bonus


Don't be shocked if they nerf the T14 set bonus right out of the gate like they are doing to priest t14. With the amount of EF blanketing this tier it wouldn't surprise me that they would. Maybe next tier will lead to more beacon swapping, who knows.

All in all i think it is a pretty good set bonus. Think that people just got a little spoiled with the reduction in shock which to me i could never figure out why they made that a set bonus in the first place as it is clearly going to change playstyle.


I wouldn't be surprised to see a nerf to T14 either, considering how they made Avenging Wrath a 2 minute cooldown baseline for Retribution and changed the four set bonus to 10% increased Seal/Judgment damage in order to coax them into chasing the new tier set even more.

My concerns regarding single target Holy Power generation have been with me since Mists of Pandaria beta when they changed the original Daybreak mechanic to what it is today along with the nerf to Blessed Life. Ever since then I've felt that Blizzard should put a greater emphasis on single target Holy Power generation, and although Holy Shock is a suitable candidate for it, I feel they could instead allow increased Holy Power generation through the use of Holy Light, Divine Light and Flash of Light in some way in order to better promote the use of these abilities.

The current four set bonus really helped improve the fluidity of the Holy Paladin play style, which makes it a real shame to see it go within the coming weeks. I just hope Blizzard takes notice of this and makes proper changes to the spec accordingly.
Edited by Areos on 2/27/2013 2:04 PM PST
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90 Tauren Priest
0
02/27/2013 02:04 PMPosted by Areos
The current four set bonus really helped improve the fluidity of the Holy Paladin play style, which makes it a real shame to see it go within the coming weeks. I just hope Blizzard takes notice of this and makes proper changes to the spec accordingly.


2 seconds off CoH, 3 seconds of Swiftmend or 4 seconds off Penance change the playstyle slightly of all the correlating specs. Druids will have less uptime of Soul of the Forest, Priests will have less access to Penance and therefore less Evangelism stacks from a better spell. It improves their fluidity as well. None of them are retaining the bonuses, I don't really see any complaints.

I see no reason to keep HS at 4 seconds other than "I want it".
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18065
02/27/2013 02:13 PMPosted by Qùess
I see no reason to keep HS at 4 seconds other than "I want it".


He wasn't whining and saying "gimme gimme gimme, I want it". He actually said it "really helped improve the fluidity of the Holy Paladin play style" and it would be a shame if it went away. He was hoping the developers take that into consideration.

I don't really see why it is a problem for him to make that observation.
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90 Tauren Priest
0
02/27/2013 02:18 PMPosted by Taymage
I don't really see why it is a problem for him to make that observation.


It's not a problem, but there's no real justification for keeping it. 4/6 healing specs have bonuses that improve the fluidity of their specs with no chance of retaining them.

If he really wants 4 second Holy Shock, healing will be taken from somewhere else to compensate. Paladins are far from being in need of a buff, which is exactly what this would be.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13260
My concern is that it'll simply lead to more overhealing. The flip side, maybe they've got a lot more tank damage happening and thus the usefulness of this 4-piece set. Could also make beacon swapping far more attractive!
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100 Human Paladin
13880
The current four set bonus really helped improve the fluidity of the Holy Paladin play style, which makes it a real shame to see it go within the coming weeks. I just hope Blizzard takes notice of this and makes proper changes to the spec accordingly.


2 seconds off CoH, 3 seconds of Swiftmend or 4 seconds off Penance change the playstyle slightly of all the correlating specs. Druids will have less uptime of Soul of the Forest, Priests will have less access to Penance and therefore less Evangelism stacks from a better spell. It improves their fluidity as well. None of them are retaining the bonuses, I don't really see any complaints.

I see no reason to keep HS at 4 seconds other than "I want it".


I don't want Holy Shock to stay at four seconds but for other single target healing mechanics, preferably Holy Light/Divine Light/Flash of Light, to provide Holy Power generation in a way that doesn't dampen our efficiency. The four set bonus we currently have just helps exemplify how much better the specialization feels with increased Holy Power generation than it will without it.

Besides, label me ignorant, but I feel that Holy Shock's reduced cooldown is more meaningful for Holy Paladins than a reduced cooldown on Penance for Discipline or Swiftmend for Restoration. I see many Discipline Priests forsaking the four set bonus entirely.

I don't really see why it is a problem for him to make that observation.


It's not a problem, but there's no real justification for keeping it. 4/6 healing specs have bonuses that improve the fluidity of their specs with no chance of retaining them.

If he really wants 4 second Holy Shock, healing will be taken from somewhere else to compensate. Paladins are far from being in need of a buff, which is exactly what this would be.


Again, Holy Shock at 6 seconds is fine. What I want to see is single target Holy Power generation increased in a way that doesn't hurt our healing efficiency. If it means taking a nerf to the mana cost or healing output of certain abilities, that's fine by me. A neutral change that ultimately makes a specialization more fun to play is a good change in my book.
Edited by Areos on 2/27/2013 4:53 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8520
Perhaps something along the lines of a monk's powerstrikes? Every x amount of seconds, either crusader strike or holy shock will give 2 holy power?
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100 Human Paladin
13880
02/27/2013 04:59 PMPosted by Fereveralone
Perhaps something along the lines of a monk's powerstrikes? Every x amount of seconds, either crusader strike or holy shock will give 2 holy power?


I was thinking along the lines of Holy Light, Divine Light or Flash of Light increasing Holy Power generation in some way or another. This use to be the case last expansion when Daybreak was a talent, giving Holy Light, Divine Light and Flash of Light a 20% chance of causing your next Holy Shock to not trigger a cooldown.

Another idea would be for healing spells empowered by your Infusion of Light to grant a charge of Holy Power when used. However, this would also buff Holy Radiance and thus raid healing, which isn't the issue...

Obviously changes like these would be accompanied with a nerf to healing or an increase in mana cost in specific areas affected as compensation.
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90 Tauren Druid
13005
I think the biggest issue with the 4p bonus is simply that if you get it early it will be really strong as you'll need the extra healing from beacon on most fights, but as you progress and the tank/you get more gear that extra healing becomes less effective.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
And the four set bonus:

Increases the healing transferred to your Beacon of Light target by 20%.


Its a terrible set bonus. Beacon of Light already has high over heal amounts and I just can't see it being that useful, and to become remotely useful paladins are practically required to glyph Beacon.

However, the complaint about losing the current 4pc bonus isn't about feeling spoiled. Its the fact that every Holy Paladin that has it finally cheered and yelled, "YES!! THIS! THIS! Is how it should feel to heal. THIS is the "flow" we have been asking for. There is rhythmic ebb and flow to Holy Paladin healing with the 4 piece that makes healing feel like the dance it's supposed to be. Without it we go back to being the wallflower with 2 left feet.

We aren't so much asking for the 4piece to be made baseline like they have done with Avenging Wrath, but that they provide us with a way to keep the smoothness to our HoPo generation. Even if that means numbers will be tweaked.

What makes the Tier 15 4pc feel so alarming is that, 1. We lose the fluidity of tier 14 and 2. We get a bonus that is a direct contradiction to DL/FoL -->Beacon, which was already a througput loss.

With only 3 possible ways of gaining HoPo and 2 of those being mana expensive, and 1 of those nullifying our 4pc bonus, Holy Paladins are going back to a clunky healing style and a 4pc that makes us want to cry.
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100 Human Paladin
13880
And the four set bonus:

Increases the healing transferred to your Beacon of Light target by 20%.


Its a terrible set bonus. Beacon of Light already has high over heal amounts and I just can't see it being that useful, and to become remotely useful paladins are practically required to glyph Beacon.

However, the complaint about losing the current 4pc bonus isn't about feeling spoiled. Its the fact that every Holy Paladin that has it finally cheered and yelled, "YES!! THIS! THIS! Is how it should feel to heal. THIS is the "flow" we have been asking for. There is rhythmic ebb and flow to Holy Paladin healing with the 4 piece that makes healing feel like the dance it's supposed to be. Without it we go back to being the wallflower with 2 left feet.

We aren't so much asking for the 4piece to be made baseline like they have done with Avenging Wrath, but that they provide us with a way to keep the smoothness to our HoPo generation. Even if that means numbers will be tweaked.

What makes the Tier 15 4pc feel so alarming is that, 1. We lose the fluidity of tier 14 and 2. We get a bonus that is a direct contradiction to DL/FoL -->Beacon, which was already a througput loss.

With only 3 possible ways of gaining HoPo and 2 of those being mana expensive, and 1 of those nullifying our 4pc bonus, Holy Paladins are going back to a clunky healing style and a 4pc that makes us want to cry.


This was a great summary of my thoughts on the four set bonus.

I can come up with convoluted ways to make this occur, but honestly speaking, I feel our three core healing spells (Holy Light, Divine Light, Flash of Light) should generate a charge of Holy Power with each cast. The healing output or mana costs of these spells could be adjusted to compensate for this increase in throughput, and Holy Light's 100% Beacon of Light transfer could be removed since it will now be inherently more efficient to use than both Divine Light and Flash of Light with this change.

I don't feel such a change would be excessive as long as the healing output and mana cost of the three heals in question are modified accordingly. Holy Light and Divine Light are already ill-frequently cast in favor of Holy Radiance, and Flash of Light is hardly ever used outside of emergency situations (which is the designed intent of such abilities, but still) and certain boss mechanics.
Edited by Areos on 2/27/2013 10:04 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/27/2013 10:02 PMPosted by Areos
I can come up with convoluted ways to make this occur, but honestly speaking, I feel our three core healing spells (Holy Light, Divine Light, Flash of Light) should generate a charge of Holy Power with each cast.


If you want increased sources of HoPo, then either IH or EF have to be changed. The current interaction between these spells and your T14 4-piece is resulting in pretty inflated IH numbers.
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90 Human Paladin
15450
02/27/2013 10:27 PMPosted by Ceddya
If you want increased sources of HoPo, then either IH or EF have to be changed. The current interaction between these spells and your T14 4-piece is resulting in pretty inflated IH numbers.


Thats why probably there is not a lot of reaction on the PTR board with regard to our new set bonuses.
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100 Human Paladin
13880
02/27/2013 10:27 PMPosted by Ceddya
I can come up with convoluted ways to make this occur, but honestly speaking, I feel our three core healing spells (Holy Light, Divine Light, Flash of Light) should generate a charge of Holy Power with each cast.


If you want increased sources of HoPo, then either IH or EF have to be changed. The current interaction between these spells and your T14 4-piece is resulting in pretty inflated IH numbers.


I would be fine with this, considering how Eternal Flame is pretty much the only choice for Holy Paladins in T45 as of now.

One idea of mine is to buff Eternal Flame's periodic healing but also to cut the duration in half. This Eternal Flame would last 15 seconds but heal for more with each tick (such as 20-25% more), which means that Illuminated Healing absorptions will only last 30 seconds on a target before expiring, down from 45 seconds, which would act as an indirect nerf to Illuminated Healing. The intent would be for an overall nerf to Eternal Flame blanketing, but not so much that it diminishes the play style choice for the Paladin.

I'm wary of nerfing the actual throughput of Eternal Flame after Blizzard had to increase its periodic healing by 100% when self-cast in order to make the talent more competitive for Protection and Retribution.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810
This is the issue with set bonuses that greatly increase QoL, efficiency, AND "fun", once we lose them it's like we're reverting back to some ancient, outdated play style!

I love the current 4pc, I'll absolutely milk it as long as I can. I don't see why it can't last into at least a few earlier heroic kills, and maybe even longer.

I'm not going to shoot down your suggestions, but paladins have been in a pretty happy place compared to almost every other healer this expansion so far. I really don't see a need to overhaul the spec because we've become accustomed to a "bonus" that has been made available to us.

With that said, my issue with the T15 4pc has nothing to do with it's strength, as I think it will be quite powerful if attained early in progression, but rather that it's flat out BORING. Where the current 4pc shines the new one is just full of "meh". It's not fun. It doesn't improve upon a play style. It's not even a "bonus" in some situations (20% increased healing to a 90% overheal spell isn't much of a bonus). I think it will be powerful, but I'm not excited about it like I am the current 4pc.
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100 Human Paladin
13880
I'm not going to shoot down your suggestions, but paladins have been in a pretty happy place compared to almost every other healer this expansion so far. I really don't see a need to overhaul the spec because we've become accustomed to a "bonus" that has been made available to us.


I don't see us receiving any major changes to our Holy Power generation this expansion, but I do hold out hope that Blizzard will be made aware of this issue come the next patch and plan on changing things for the better in the coming expansion, whatever it may be.

02/28/2013 12:28 AMPosted by Duboomchikin
With that said, my issue with the T15 4pc has nothing to do with it's strength, as I think it will be quite powerful if attained early in progression, but rather that it's flat out BORING. Where the current 4pc shines the new one is just full of "meh". It's not fun. It doesn't improve upon a play style. It's not even a "bonus" in some situations (20% increased healing to a 90% overheal spell isn't much of a bonus). I think it will be powerful, but I'm not excited about it like I am the current 4pc.


Agreed, but as you said, it's a fine line of balance Blizzard walks regarding set bonuses. Make a bonus too passive or forgettable and it becomes boring and an afterthought, but make a bonus too worthwhile or game-changing and it could leave a community yearning for it to remain permanently.

I think set bonuses can be beneficial as it allows Blizzard to experiment with new concepts and determine if a certain mechanic could be implemented for a class or specialization without disrupting balance between classes. This is why it's not uncommon to see certain set bonuses become baseline mechanics for their respective specializations, such as Avenging Wrath returning to 2 minutes for Retribution Paladins or Lava Surge procs becoming instant cast for Elemental Shaman.
Edited by Areos on 2/28/2013 1:01 AM PST
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60 Human Paladin
9900
though I will be milking my current four set bonus


Don't be shocked if they nerf the T14 set bonus right out of the gate like they are doing to priest t14. With the amount of EF blanketing this tier it wouldn't surprise me that they would. Maybe next tier will lead to more beacon swapping, who knows.

All in all i think it is a pretty good set bonus. Think that people just got a little spoiled with the reduction in shock which to me i could never figure out why they made that a set bonus in the first place as it is clearly going to change playstyle.


I guess you missed the part where they said they are nerfing the Priest set bonus because they reduced the cooldown on Penance. In the end, it adds up to no nerf.

Discipline
-Penance damage and healing has been increased by 20%, now a cooldown of 9 seconds (was 10 seconds), and has a range of 40 yards for both friendly and hostile targets (was 40 yards for friendly and 30 yards for hostile targets).
-Tier-14 Holy/Discipline 4-piece set bonus now reduces the cooldown of Penance by 3 seconds (was 4 seconds).

10-4=6, 9-3=6...so no difference.

And beacon swapping was a big part of the eternal flame blanketing playstyle.
Edited by Tiara on 2/28/2013 4:11 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
I guess you missed the part where they said they are nerfing the Priest set bonus because they reduced the cooldown on Penance. In the end, it adds up to no nerf.

Discipline
-Penance damage and healing has been increased by 20%, now a cooldown of 9 seconds (was 10 seconds), and has a range of 40 yards for both friendly and hostile targets (was 40 yards for friendly and 30 yards for hostile targets).
-Tier-14 Holy/Discipline 4-piece set bonus now reduces the cooldown of Penance by 3 seconds (was 4 seconds).

10-4=6, 9-3=6...so no difference.


And here is where you start to see the difference. Blizz recognized that the playstyle was greatly improved by lowering the cd on Penance so they baselined a decreased cd.
Holy Paladins, despite the glaring evidence to the improvement of the playstyle, Blizz has not done anything about it.

02/28/2013 12:28 AMPosted by Duboomchikin
but rather that it's flat out BORING. Where the current 4pc shines the new one is just full of "meh". It's not fun. It doesn't improve upon a play style. It's not even a "bonus" in some situations (20% increased healing to a 90% overheal spell isn't much of a bonus).


So much this ^ as well. I would prefer to see a set bonus that helps with HoPo generation, especially if they refuse to do anything about it at the base of the spec. Personally, I would like to see:

4pc: Infusion of Light now gives your next Holy Light, Divine Light, and Flash of Light a 40% chance to grant 1 charge of Holy Power. Lasts only while Infusion of Light is active.


This at least looks exciting. Being able to build HoPo without spamming HR/ DL->Beacon? Being able to actually choose to use DL or HL based on the actual heal I need rather than just mindlessly HR or DL on Beacon for the HoPo. Choosing between casting that super fast HR on the melee group or that super fast DL on the tank. That sounds exciting. 20% to Beacon? Makes me sad every time I say it.
Edited by Ceresc on 2/28/2013 6:07 AM PST
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