Holy Paladin T15 Set Bonuses

90 Worgen Druid
4810
A single paladin is not necessarily OP, but 3 good ones in a 25m will be, and very soon.


I'll be watching this closely. I never agreed with the theory, and it's interesting that you think it could possibly "return" even though we lack the much more powerful cooldowns of the other classes. We'll see soon!
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
2 seconds off CoH, 3 seconds of Swiftmend or 4 seconds off Penance change the playstyle slightly of all the correlating specs. Druids will have less uptime of Soul of the Forest, Priests will have less access to Penance and therefore less Evangelism stacks from a better spell. It improves their fluidity as well. None of them are retaining the bonuses, I don't really see any complaints.

I see no reason to keep HS at 4 seconds other than "I want it".
T14 4pc for HPallies isn't honestly comparable to other specs' 4pc, and it's silly to even try. Holy Shock is literally the bread and butter of the HPally arsenal and 4 seconds on it makes the "rotation" (since you do Holy Shock off cd, always) significantly better.

It's not a fluidity issue. It's not a "omg I have my best spell more often." It literally changes the playstyle a lot, not slightly, and you should know this as a former HPally. It's basically the equivalent to dropping Renewing Mists cd to 6 seconds, which would be absolutely huge for MW - Chi generation goes up, overall efficiency spikes immensely, and you have to cast less fillers.

We're not comparing 4pc to nothing here... we're comparing it to T15 4pc. T15 4pc is, quite frankly, awful.
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02/28/2013 03:03 PMPosted by Kangamooster
We're not comparing 4pc to nothing here... we're comparing it to T15 4pc. T15 4pc is, quite frankly, awful.

Not awful, situational. It buffs a good 15% of our healing by 20% which isn't something to say is AWFUL, just not downright gamechanging like 4pc.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810
02/28/2013 03:15 PMPosted by Röthtwo
We're not comparing 4pc to nothing here... we're comparing it to T15 4pc. T15 4pc is, quite frankly, awful.

Not awful, situational. It buffs a good 15% of our healing by 20% which isn't something to say is AWFUL, just not downright gamechanging like 4pc.


The problem is it ranges from "Gamechanging" all the way to "useless" depending on the circumstance.
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90 Tauren Priest
0
t's not a fluidity issue. It's not a "omg I have my best spell more often." It literally changes the playstyle a lot, not slightly, and you should know this as a former HPally.


I fully understand the concept. I already said you can have 4 second Holy Shock if you really want it, but Paladins would need to be nerfed elsewhere to justify it. That's all I've said in this thread.

It's the first tier of an expansion. How quick do you expect resource generation to be? Next tier healers will be able to hit over 15k spirit, which Paladins can directly convert into more Holy Power. I doubt they'll need 4 second Holy Shock to keep up.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16020
We were spoiled with the t14 4 set bonus. It will be interesting to see how t15 will play out. I have no experience on the PTR so I have no clue how the tank damage is, which will definitely play a key role in the set bonus's we choose to use. Also depends on how many Holy Paladin's your raid runs. (25 man PoV). Only time will tell.

Also as far as Holy Avenger goes with the current 4 piece we only lose 1 proc from it. If you have good RNG you don't even lose this proc. I do not think this is a big deal.
Edited by Virsta on 2/28/2013 4:19 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
13820
02/28/2013 03:44 PMPosted by Qùess
t's not a fluidity issue. It's not a "omg I have my best spell more often." It literally changes the playstyle a lot, not slightly, and you should know this as a former HPally.


I fully understand the concept. I already said you can have 4 second Holy Shock if you really want it, but Paladins would need to be nerfed elsewhere to justify it. That's all I've said in this thread.

It's the first tier of an expansion. How quick do you expect resource generation to be? Next tier healers will be able to hit over 15k spirit, which Paladins can directly convert into more Holy Power. I doubt they'll need 4 second Holy Shock to keep up.


Unless you're directly healing the Beacon of Light with Divine Light or Flash of Light (which is noticeably inefficient now and will be even more inefficient once the new four set bonus places a greater emphasis on Beacon of Light transfers) or using Holy Radiance more than once every Holy Shock cooldown (which is also inefficient now due to how Daybreak works and, once again, will be even more inefficient once the new two set bonus players a greater emphasis on Daybreak healing), Holy Power generation will not scale back to current levels come the next patch. Holy Power generation will assuredly stagnate to lower levels and the play style will degrade in relation.

Maybe others feel different, but I don't think Holy Paladins need Holy Shock at 4 seconds to be fun. I simply feel the specialization needs a more efficient way of generating Holy Power through single target healing mechanics, and I feel the best way to go about this is to make Holy Light, Divine Light and Flash of Light provide Holy Power when cast.
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90 Tauren Priest
0
02/28/2013 08:55 PMPosted by Areos
Holy Power generation will not scale back to current levels come the next patch. Holy Power generation will assuredly stagnate to lower levels and the play style will degrade in relation.


I didn't imply that they would be at the same (or even similar) resource generation levels in T15 as they are with T14 4pc. Just that it will be slightly better, and there's still another tier after this one.

I'm also pretty sure once gear allows it, sacrificing efficiency for output is just something that happens as the expansion progresses (for all healers). "Losing" a daybreak proc from casting two HR won't be as consequential if regen is sufficient.

02/28/2013 08:55 PMPosted by Areos
and I feel the best way to go about this is to make Holy Light, Divine Light and Flash of Light provide Holy Power when cast.


Holy Light will probably never give Holy Power unless Paladins go through another significant spec overhaul. HL used to interact with Tower of Radiance and it was one of the most overpowered mechanics ever. It's just not gonna happen. I can see an argument for FoL/DL giving Holy Power regardless of hitting the beacon, but it may still require adjustment to costs.
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100 Human Paladin
13820
I didn't imply that they would be at the same (or even similar) resource generation levels in T15 as they are with T14 4pc. Just that it will be slightly better, and there's still another tier after this one.

I'm also pretty sure once gear allows it, sacrificing efficiency for output is just something that happens as the expansion progresses (for all healers). "Losing" a daybreak proc from casting two HR won't be as consequential if regen is sufficient.


"Slightly better", perhaps. In theory, as our haste increases, we can cast more Holy Radiances or Divine Lights and Flash of Lights on the Beacon of Light. In practice? Holy Shock's 6 second cooldown and the random nature of Infusion of Light procs will make this impractical.

I doubt we will be able to reach Spirit levels where we can more freely cast Divine Light or Flash of Light on the Beacon of Light to obtain Holy Power, not to mention that this will always be a loss in healing output unless we're given a greater incentive to directly heal the Beacon of Light.

Daybreak's healing can very much outweigh the healing output of a single charge of Holy Power, especially considering its healing is being buffed by a whopping 50% with our two set bonus. Unless your raid is taking heavy enough damage while stacked that you can warrant such frequent use of Holy Radiance, I wouldn't advise it.

02/28/2013 09:04 PMPosted by Qùess
Holy Light will probably never give Holy Power unless Paladins go through another significant spec overhaul. HL used to interact with Tower of Radiance and it was one of the most overpowered mechanics ever. It's just not gonna happen. I can see an argument for FoL/DL giving Holy Power regardless of hitting the beacon, but it may still require adjustment to costs.


The hotfix nerf that removed Holy Light from Tower of Radiance was due to it being more efficient to cast it directly on the Beacon of Light rather than using the Beacon of Light for its original purpose, and Light of Dawn was also too strong at the time in conjunction (which resulted in a ~50% nerf to the ability if I remember correctly). The former nerf could've been left alone if they simply decided to either nerf Holy Light's healing output or its mana cost. They later had to rebuff Holy Light by making Beacon of Light transfer 100% of Holy Light's healing when healing an off-Beacon target. Also keep in mind that this was a time when all Holy Paladin raid healing mechanics, like Light of Dawn, transferred 50% of all healing done to the Beacon of Light, which was a lot higher than the 15% Beacon of Light transfer that Light of Dawn has today.

I feel Holy Light generating Holy Power would be fine as long as they nerf the healing amount or increase the mana cost of Holy Light in relation along with removing the 100% Beacon of Light transfer bonus. Total overhaul? Completely unnecessary as long as they watch throughput closely and make adjustments to numbers instead of mechanics.
Edited by Areos on 2/28/2013 9:26 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17860
A single paladin is not necessarily OP, but 3 good ones in a 25m will be, and very soon.


I'll be watching this closely. I never agreed with the theory, and it's interesting that you think it could possibly "return" even though we lack the much more powerful cooldowns of the other classes. We'll see soon!


I think they are saying this because Light's Hammer doesn't have an AoE heal cap like all the other ground healing spells which makes it really overpowered on some fights in ToT (as per testing on ptr)
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90 Worgen Druid
4810


I'll be watching this closely. I never agreed with the theory, and it's interesting that you think it could possibly "return" even though we lack the much more powerful cooldowns of the other classes. We'll see soon!


I think they are saying this because Light's Hammer doesn't have an AoE heal cap like all the other ground healing spells which makes it really overpowered on some fights in ToT (as per testing on ptr)


Eh, we're just revisiting a debate that started in T11 that basically stated that having 3 holy paladins was OP. Paladins at the time were extremely powerful healers, which is why I never really agreed with the "Power of 3" as it basically says that 1 pally is good, 2 pallies are good, but 3 are overpowered.

My stance on it is that each paladin essentially added the same amount of utility as the previous 2, where some would argue that adding that 3rd paladin just really created an "OP" situation. It's basically like the reverse of Disc priests where you LOSE utility for each additional disc you have in raid, the "power of 3" would claim that you GAIN (additional) utility from adding a 3rd paladin (so the 3rd paladin brings more to the table than #1 or #2)

So yeah, just revisiting an old debate =p
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12550


I think they are saying this because Light's Hammer doesn't have an AoE heal cap like all the other ground healing spells which makes it really overpowered on some fights in ToT (as per testing on ptr)


Eh, we're just revisiting a debate that started in T11 that basically stated that having 3 holy paladins was OP. Paladins at the time were extremely powerful healers, which is why I never really agreed with the "Power of 3" as it basically says that 1 pally is good, 2 pallies are good, but 3 are overpowered.

My stance on it is that each paladin essentially added the same amount of utility as the previous 2, where some would argue that adding that 3rd paladin just really created an "OP" situation. It's basically like the reverse of Disc priests where you LOSE utility for each additional disc you have in raid, the "power of 3" would claim that you GAIN (additional) utility from adding a 3rd paladin (so the 3rd paladin brings more to the table than #1 or #2)

So yeah, just revisiting an old debate =p


I posited the *Power of 3* back then based on the healing power at the time. Now, it's about max IH shields on most of the raid. I can't get a good read in my Holy gear, but I imagine that a Heroic geared Paladin can cap IH shields fairly quickly.

One or two doens't make too much of a difference, overall. 3, however, can cover most of the raid in capped IH shields, probably in less than 20 seconds very soon. Perhaps even now. Encounter mechanics may not allow this to happen, but if they do - do you see what I'm getting at, and how 3 is the tipping point?

Back then, it was about the healing power of 3 Paladins playing a certain way. Now, it's about the mitigation power of 3 Paladins playing a certain (different) way. Also, don't forget a lot of that healing power is still here, too.

Just some food for thought. This actually relates to the OP, btw, because this scenario can be done faster with the current 4pc. The new set bonuses do not cater to this playstyle.

Riôt
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I was under the impression that just leaving beacon on the tank was doing it wrong.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810

One or two doens't make too much of a difference, overall. 3, however, can cover most of the raid in capped IH shields, probably in less than 20 seconds very soon. Perhaps even now. Encounter mechanics may not allow this to happen, but if they do - do you see what I'm getting at, and how 3 is the tipping point?

Are we talking about capping shields pre-pull, or at given points in an attempt? Maxing shields pre-pull is certainly possible, but the only way that's happening during an attempt is if there's a HUGE downtime.

I still disagree with the theory or "power of 3", but it's for the exact same reasons as I did before so there's no reason to go into at this time. It's certainly an interesting concept and maybe we will see some strong evidence of it occurring this tier.
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100 Human Paladin
13820

One or two doens't make too much of a difference, overall. 3, however, can cover most of the raid in capped IH shields, probably in less than 20 seconds very soon. Perhaps even now. Encounter mechanics may not allow this to happen, but if they do - do you see what I'm getting at, and how 3 is the tipping point?

Are we talking about capping shields pre-pull, or at given points in an attempt? Maxing shields pre-pull is certainly possible, but the only way that's happening during an attempt is if there's a HUGE downtime.

I still disagree with the theory or "power of 3", but it's for the exact same reasons as I did before so there's no reason to go into at this time. It's certainly an interesting concept and maybe we will see some strong evidence of it occurring this tier.


I know that I try to Mastery-cap at least 10 players before a pull in each fight, though the results vary depending on how immediate raid damage is.

There are times when damage is lull enough that I can afford to stack minor Illuminated Healing bubbles across multiple players in anticipation for incoming raid damage, but rarely am I able to cap out a Mastery bubble on multiple players without going mana-negative as a result.
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56 Undead Death Knight
15895

I don't really see why it is a problem for him to make that observation.


On the wow forums, if something doesn't benefit your class, you must staunchly oppose it at all costs, preferably while claiming the other person is simply QQing. If you really want cool points, staunchly oppose buffs to your own class while adopting an air of superiority. This is a rare but effective route to becoming a true bamf.
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90 Human Paladin
13725
They could just bring back that glyph we had back in Wotlk.

Holy Shock Glyph: Reduces the cd of Holy Shock by 1 s
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90 Human Paladin
15170
I just want to weigh in as a H pally as well...

It is about play style... They generated 2 abilities we need in a pinch WoG (or EF) and LoD to be derived from Holy Power. The sluggish generation of HoPo was finally overcome by the T14 4 set bonus and thus giving us access to abilities we need to react to incoming dmg better and a few on the move heals instead of being stuck in place to try and heal...

This though for me has resulted in the use of HS and HR to build HoPo all the time to the degree I almost never use HL or DL much and just FoL every so often when someones health drops rapidly so I can get back to using HS and HR again to build HoPo.

To me the lack of HL never generating HoPo with a 2 sec cast time and being such a weak spell now compared to the amount of dmg everyone receives makes it a very low utility spell. And DL is only really good when healing the Beaconed target when no one else is taking much dmg.

I would like to see the utility of HL and DL generating HoPo when cast on any targets, even if the result is they nerf our Mastery and therefore Illuminated Healing to make EF blanketing less a go to style of healing. I'm sure Illuminated Healing is just a way Blizz is trying to get rid of a pallys massive overhealing but with the current setup it leads to more overhealing on targets through the use of EF blanketing.

This I feel would help keep a bit of fluidity in the paladin healing and let us still move around a little bit while healing...

A H Pallys other problem at the moment is our AoE Healing is reliant on other players being in such a close range all the time... would like to see these distances increased just a little on HR.
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1 Human Priest
0
I think it would make sense to split the difference as someone mentioned, give a glyph that reduces the CD by 1 second and then nerf the t14 4 set.

Currently I think most hpallies worth their salt will steer clear of t15 for a while. I think the loss of the 2 second CD reduction would be much less significant if it wasn't also tied to Divine Purpose (through HP generation) and holy avenger (able to use 33% more holy shocks to generate 3 HP during the duration of the CD). As it stands, the impact to those talents along with HP generation, could likely put upgraded t14 ahead of HM tier 15, except on fights where beacon really shines.

I'm honestly more interested in picking up the 509 t14 pieces that I'm missing than any normal t15, and t15 is so bad, that I'm not sure it's worth it for me (if even then) until I can grab all heroic t15, or upgraded hm t15. It's sure as hell not worth taking the gear away from other people on the token.

That's the problem I think, if the gear is in your bags, and you still won't use it over the previous tier. I've seen a number of pallies I follow stating that they won't touch t15 until they can grab 543 ilvl upgraded gear.

On another note, what's up with trinkets? I'm not sure if there are any 522 trinkets that give the mana regen of upgraded spirits/DMF a run for their money, especially since they've tied it to "mana" instead of spirit. Spirit we get a bonus from as a healer, while mana we don't. I'm guessing this was intentional. Maybe my math is bad, someone let me know.

Finally does anyone else find the legendary meta underwhelming? Unless the proc rate is quite high, I can't imagine being able to forge more throughput stats and less spirit because of this "clearcast" meta gem effect. While getting mana free casts is not a bad thing, it doesn't directly increase throughput, and given how RNG it likely will be (especially if it follows a similar PPM system as the current trinkets, which are a HOT MESS, no shortage of info there) I can't see myself dropping spirit to compensate for this free bonus healing. While other classes see direct benefits from their gems, a free mana cast is far more indirect. Maybe this gem will turn out to be the greatest thing ever, but as an hpally I really just see a free flash/divine light. Which btw won't work with my 4 set bonus if I want it to build HP...
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100 Draenei Paladin
20585
I'm not disappointed with the 4-piece.
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