Use Grapple Weapon in PvE?

90 Pandaren Monk
7930
I notice that not many people mention Grapple Weapon in raids, but I've found that many bosses are susceptible to this skill. Question is, does it really give a DPS boost? If so, why don't guides like Icy-Veins or the WW sticky actually talk about it? I try to time my trinket and grapple weapon CD to use it with FoF to hopefully get a bigger burst. Do you guys use it?
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90 Worgen Hunter
11945
Dont quote me on this but, IF it will work IE can steal there wep and receive the buff (5% more damg i believe for 12sec) the gcd if nothing else is needed at that time would be well spent.

As you said most raids and nearly all raid bosses the mobs are immune to it, id assume thats why no mention of it is made on those sites. For PvP though it can be treated as a burst CD if you are sure your wont need it later as a CC, so much fun disarming wars mid charge to see them go derp what now or a RoW works well to.
Edited by Talva on 2/28/2013 1:01 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
7930
Dont quote me on this but, IF it will work IE can steal there wep and receive the buff (5% more damg i believe for 12sec) the gcd if nothing else is needed at that time would be well spent.

As you said most raids and nearly all raid bosses the mobs are immune to it, id assume thats why no mention of it is made on those sites. For PvP though it can be treated as a burst CD if you are sure your wont need it later as a CC, so much fun disarming wars mid charge to see them go derp what now or a RoW works well to.


Actually, I said that we can grapple weapons from many bosses (I have tried for all of them). The ones we can't are generally those that don't have weapons, for example Sha of fear, Lei Shi, Tsulong, Empress, Garalon etc. But a lot of the others like Spirit Kings, Wind/Blade Lords, Protectors have weapons we can grapple.
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90 Worgen Hunter
11945
02/28/2013 01:25 AMPosted by Haiiya
Actually, I said that we can grapple weapons from many bosses (I have tried for all of them). The ones we can't are generally those that don't have weapons, for example Sha of fear, Lei Shi, Tsulong, Empress, Garalon etc. But a lot of the others like Spirit Kings, Wind/Blade Lords, Protectors have weapons we can grapple.


It works but we dont get the the buff, try it next time. Will pop as immune on them.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11975
I always just sort of assumed it didn't do anything :3

In a normal scenario, it seems like using it would be a slight dps loss. You spend a second to get 15 seconds of +5% dps, so instead of doing damage = 15 seconds x DPS = 15xDPS you do damage = 14 seconds x DPS x 1.05 = 14.7xDPS. That a loss of 0.3xDPS damage.

However if you use it in a situation like right before heroic wind lord mel'jarak gains recklessness, theoretically you would go from damage = 1 second x DPS + 14 seconds x DPS x 7 = 99xDPS to 14 seconds x DPS x 7 x 1.05 = 102.9 DPS. That's a gain of 3.9xDPS damage.

More generally speaking, you could do it before every tigereye brew. Assuming a TEB damage increase modifier of +40%, you would go from doing 1+14x1.4= 20.6xDPS over that interval to doing 14x1.4x1.05=20.58xDPS instead. By dumb luck, that comes out to be very close to even (but a slight loss).

Being a bit more intelligent, you can estimate how much of a damage modifier you would need to justify using grapple weapon beforehand. 1+14*x=0+14*x*1.05, x=1/0.7= roughly you'd need to have about a 43% damage increase for it to be viable. Remember that just having that damage increase is not enough, you only begin to see a damage gain if you use grapple weapon before you actually get the damage increase.

The two big things I left out of my quick analysis was that your DPS during the GCD of using grapple weapon is nonzero. I should have put in a figure representing the fraction of your DPS that would come from autoattacks+tigerstrikes. Also I should have subtracted something to account for the damage loss incurred by spending 40 energy.

If that silly reorigination trinket actually becomes a thing, then with the absurd amounts of mastery we may have it looks like using grapple before tigereye may very well be a thing.
Edited by Janxspirit on 2/28/2013 8:28 AM PST
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92 Draenei Shaman
11565
Great analysis Janx.
Seems like a pain in the tail to line all that up. What's that process look like?

1. Wait for Rune of Reorg to proc.
2. Grapple Weapon
3. Use Tigereye Brew
4. Use Synapse Springs
5. Use Trinket
6. Use Potion
7. Pop Xuen
8. Use Energizing Brew
(9. Beg for heroism?)

I guess you can macro half of that, but it's just a lot of stuff to juggle. I suspect I'd lose more DPS waiting for all those things to come off cooldown and the planets to align than I'd gain from Grapple Weapon. You'd also need a solid 20 second window of uninterrupted time on the boss... and when all this is predicated on a Rune of Reorg proc, it's certainly not guaranteed.
Edited by Aztonishing on 2/28/2013 9:24 AM PST
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It's pretty good for us Brewmasters I'd say. If you have shuffle rolling, perhaps a Guard up, taking 5% less damage from a boss or a mob would be excellent.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11975
@Aztonishing

I don't have any PTR experience but it is my understanding that the reorigination trinket is rather unreliable in its chance to proc, so waiting and holding your breath for it will likely be a dps loss.

Also the optimal use of TEB during a reorigination proc is not a easily answered question. The issue is that TEB lasts 15 seconds and the reorigination proc only lasts 10. So you can either TEB ASAP and then TEB again just before it ends. This yields 10s of reorigination dps time and 15 s of rereoriginated dps time (the time after you use TEB and also have regained your haste/crit and are being a big cheater), and consumes 20 TEB stacks. It also requires a fair number of pooled TEB stacks to pull off (like 17).

The simpler alternative is just to use TEB at the end of the reorigination proc, and take 10s of reoriginated dps plus 15s of rereoriginated dps plus the extra 15s of normal TEB damage somewhere.

Doing a quick live simC on myself, I do 135376dps. My dps when I set my haste and crit to 0 is 112141. This means my reoriginated DPS without TEB on is about = 83% of my normal dps.

X = Reoriginated tigereye 10 stack multiplier (EG 10 stacks of 4% dps = 1.4 multiplier)
Y = Normal tigereye 10 stack multiplier

So the damage from the double TEB usage method is:
10*X*112141/135376+15*X+15

And the damage from doing TEB only at the end is:
10*112141/135376+15*X+15*Y

Set them to be equal and solve for X as a function of Y:

10*X*112141/135376+15*X+15=10*112141/135376+15*X+15*Y
10*X*112141/135376+15*X+15-10*112141/135376-15*X=15*Y
10*X*112141/135376+15-10*112141/135376=15*Y
10*X*112141/135376/15+15/15-10*112141/135376/15=Y
0.55224461253*X+0.44775538746 = Y

If the left hand side is actually bigger than Y, then you should be trying to use TEB twice during reorigination. If it is less, then just use it once.

For example assume you were getting +100% damage with reorigination TEB and +40% without it (I'm just making these numbers up, not sure how close they are to being reasonable):

1.55224461252 = 1.4

In this (hypothetical) case it would be good to try for double TEB usage during reorigination. But doing this consistently would require an average generation of 20 TEB stacks per average proc time of the trinket. That's not really feasible, since the trinket procs about once a minute and TEB generation is only about 18.8/min.

I've wandered pretty far astray from the topic of grapple weapon usage, but since the discussion was regards to using it prior to TEB during reorigination I felt it was important to better understand TEB use during reorigination.

In the situation of using TEB only at the end of reorigination, grapple weapon use actually becomes more viable. This is because the opportunity cost of the GCD you use is less because your DPS during reorigination is less than your normal dps.

However on the flipside, if you are going for a double TEB during reorigination, the GCD you are giving up is actually more valuable. It's going to come at the opportunity cost of reoriginated TEB time during reorigination, for the gain of reoriginated TEB time outside of reorigination. Since you have reoriginated TEB both before and after, the change in the multiplier is just the change from having your crit and haste being 0 to having it being normal. Earlier I said that based on me live that is about 135376/112141, or a 1.20719451405 multiplier. This is less than the 43% needed I calculated in my earlier post, meaning that if you are going for a double TEB 10 stack during reorigination, using grapple weapon would NOT be a gain (regardless of how much mastery you have).

I have gotten a bit convoluted. Here is a conclusion of my thoughts so far:

1) Using a 10 stack of Tigereye brew twice during reorigination (once right away and again in 10s just before it ends) is a theoretical dps gain, but you cannot use grapple weapon in this situation for a gain. It is also impossible to do this consistently, as it requires you to have about 17-20 stacks of TEB every time reorigination procs, and you simply do not generate that much TEB.

2) It looks like in a typical non gimmick fight, the optimal use of TEB if you have rune of reorigination will be to only use it once you are at 19-20 stacks, so you can be sure to have some in the event of a reorigination proc, but of course don't overflow. Once you do get a reorigination proc, just wait for it to almost expire, and then use grapple weapon and TEB, to stack together the +5% grapple increase with the ~+100% reoriginated TEB increase together with your normal dps with your haste and crit from reorigination returned to you.

One big error in my analysis of double TEB use during reorigination was that I assumed a 0s reaction time. A more reasonable assumption of a 1s delay would yield the following equation:

0.49702015128*X+0.50297984871=Y
Edited by Janxspirit on 2/28/2013 11:38 AM PST
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92 Draenei Shaman
11565
Your Math Fu is strong Janx.

Ultimately, I side on simplification unless the numbers are overwhelming impressive. Very few raiders play efficiently enough to maximize this stuff, and would ultimately end up losing DPS trying to exceed their reaction time limitations.

Your math seems to suggest a theoritical dps increase in a perfect storm scenario, but that scenario is contrived enough that I suspect most WW Monks are better off avoiding both Rune of Reorigination and Grapple Weapon. (At least, as far as maximizing DPS goes. There's obviously the disarm effect, which has other value).

It's likely that Grapple Weapon has value to Fistweavers, who are not as GCD restricted as WW monks.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11975
I think it will be easier than you think to see a dps gain from using grapple.

The reorigination proc lasts 10 seconds. All you have to do is use grapple weapon at the end and then tigereye.

This isn't really a reaction time thing. You have a while to be like "oh hey there's the proc. Now I just dps like normal for another 7 seconds and then grapple->tigereye->profit", since you only have to do something as the proc is expiring.

I wouldn't really call it a perfect storm. The only thing you need is the reorigination proc. You should always be sitting on enough TEB stacks that you'll always have them, unless there was some encounter mechanic that called for burst and you just blew them all. The "perfect storm", from what I can see, is going to end up happening every proc you get.

All that said, the gain is really not that significant. Unless you are a very good player you are probably better off just focusing on energy/chi management and spending as many GCDs as you can (while moving out of fire).

Theoretically, on a 5 minute fight you might be able to do this 4 times. Say your dps without using tigereye at all is 100k and you have 4% per stack without the proc and 10% with. Say you get 80 total stacks of tigereye during the fight. Say during reorigination you only do 80% of your normal dps:

If you didn't have the reorigination proc, your dps would be say (100000*180+1000000*120)/300=116000

If you manage to game the proc by using TEB at the end AND using grapple, your theoretical dps could be say (36*0.8*100000+60*2*100000*1.05+60*1.4*100000+140*100000)/300=126266.666667

If you can use TEB at the end but don't bother with grapple, your theoretical dps could be say (40*0.8*100000+60*2*100000+60*1.4*100000+140*100000)/300=125333.333333 (Repeating of course ;p)

It seems like the trinket will be very strong. Being sneaky and using grapple may only be a theoretical gain of 0.74% dps with these (made up) numbers, but for me it seems like a small amount of effort for that return.
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