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If you've been on Eitrigg long enough you'll no doubt know the name ANZACS. For years ANZACS has been a linchpin in Eitrigg's community.
Despite being on Eitrigg since 2005, despite always being involved at some level in the raiding community, despite always looking for a guild that raided my times, I had no idea of Anzacs existence until I saw a forum post by Raw in 2010.
Dragon Soul was the first tier since records began in BC that Anzacs ranked in the top 5 on server. Multiple times they were within top 5 horde.. when there were 6-7 horde raiding guilds.
I was one of these people (although before the situation you are describing happened). The fact is Tui is a good raider, she had amazing attendance, clear communication & when healing could put out decent numbers. However there were areas that she could have lifted her game (IMO), as there are with all players (especially me). Its when she appeared to not take those steps that I got frustrated. Again, all my opinion. And when I get frustrated at that level, each and every week, I do dumb !@#$.
Again I was not there for this step. But I truly feel that its a shame if these were her emotions (here-say and all that). There are a lot of possible paths in any situation and its a shame that peoples actions on both sides resulted in this being the outcome.
This is the most interesting section, because it contains both the most truth, the most unguided comments and the most untruth. There are/were many long term casuals in that guild, some of whom have posted here, many of of whom I consider my friends. They are not second class citizens, nor should they be treated as such. But the fact remains that under Tui's era, the guild was a casual based guild and beginning perhaps towards the start of my coming into the guild, the guild slowly started transforming into a more progression focused guild. In the last year or so, more focus was put into the raiding portion of the guild, because honestly, at that stage, they were the core of the guild.
I completely disagree with your perception of prestige, in my opinion based on my own experiences and conversations I had with people, Anzacs never had a very good reputation and that never changed.
In my opinion, the major reason Anzacs is no longer a raiding guild is because raiders got tired. Gnip was tired of being involved in the running of a guild, Ayssa was tired of putting up with people like me & doing a huge amount of work. Shock/Wolf/Ciran was tired of carrying people with a skill level well below their own. I was tired of putting effort into something that was increasingly becoming a tiny portion of my life. With everyone being tired of the whole situation & facing the nightmare of trying to recruit people actually skilled enough to play at the level required, the decision was made to disband the raiding team. As far as I am aware, the vast majority of the raiding team is actually BETTER OFF this week, than they were last week due to this decision. Even in death, Anzacs is still doing the best it can for its raiding core, exactly as it was intended as it evolved.
When I first heard Tui had left, my reaction was literally: "What the !@#$ did she do that for, she should have just kicked all the raiders and kept the guild". That still remains my opinion to this day. Us raiders would have been fine with that. Give us the gold that Danjal donated for us to raid, we would have had a lvl 25 guild in no time & we would have been happy as larry being a "raiders only 10man guild".
However that did not happen. She took some gold (I don't care about gold, who does? Its only a means to pay repair bills), changed the name & left. I wish it had never been renamed Anzacs, at that point in time, as I had numerous times in the past, asked for another name. As a New Zealander, the name Anzacs in a video game I feel is a little bit silly. Imagine, if you will, Americans, a guild named "Confederates". Would you think that was silly? As I have mentioned above, I don't feel that the name Anzacs held any real value, in terms of prestige. I am frankly baffled that both Gnip & Tui feel they have "created something". They did, at the time. But in two months time it ultimately doesn't mean a thing except for them, they need to be proud of what they created for themselves and leave the validation path behind them.
Should Tui be given GM of Anzacs back? I honestly don't know. Initially my thought was yes, as I initially thought she should never have given it up. On reflection, especially after reading these posts, I feel the right thing has been done. Poor Cekaz doesn't want to end up in the middle of this I am sure, but of the three possible owners, (Tui, Gnip & him), he is honestly the most deserving of the guild. Cekaz has stuck it out through all regimes, working hard to perform to standard and to provide wise, laid back advice to every officer and member lucky enough to engage him in conversation. He has remained impartial throughout, simply doing what he does to his usual high standard.
Cekaz should be the rightful owner as he has helped and been with anzacs through all the bull %^-* he has provided much of his time to us and taken any criticism thrown his way so no the guild will not go to tui seeing as how cekaz is staying on eitrigg and possibly forming a group of his own.
Quoted for Truth.
Ahh Ispep, this, this is all exactly true & harks back to my previous statement about your intelligent insightful posts. Everything, especially being stuck in a situation no one respects you is not only a sad situation to be in, but one I can actually relate to. However, as I have been though this myself in real life, keep in mind that respect is not given, it is earnt. As mentioned I still believe Tui should have just kicked all us raiders though.
Gnip really has been there at every step, putting in his opinion, effort and experiences at every level for as long as I have known him. In my hay day as chief mischief maker, he was a tireless defender of Tui and her thoughts & opinions.
I have hinted at this myself before.
Again, this is what actually happened, rather than the version incorrectly stated in Ispeps original post.
Vrash, I salute you, sir, and thank you. You put the situation in perspective far better than I should have and I appreciate that greatly. You know I can get pretty emotional when it comes to expressing how I feel about various things.
Everything you said is also 100% accurate based off my own experiences. People really are putting too much thought and emotion into this thread than I really care for (including myself). I was trying to leave with my shaman (and warrior later) quietly until this thread opened up.
As far as I am concerned, this is the most truthful, correct and telling paragraph ever written or ever to be written in this post.
Firstly, ANZACS was my guild - from the time I started it in 2006 until I left it in 2012. For those of you saying it belonged to everyone, I will say you are not correct.
Blizzard defines who a guild belongs to as the Current Guild Master. Which backs this statement up. Its wrong however, in the same way the Current President does not actually "own" a country, but rather is responsible for shepherding it and its inhabitants forward into a better and brighter future.
True. Although, in all fairness, I also complained to you about every.single.other.officer apart from Raw to do with this very issue.
I took 150k gold from the guild when I left as I felt that was a fair amount to cover my contribution and intellectual property. People are buying unknown lvl 25 guilds for that amount, let alone one with a such a good reputation (and achievements). It must be mentioned that if I had kicked everyone out they wouldn't have got anything, let alone the 300k gold that was still in the gbank plus all the valuable mats and gear we had stocked.
Quoted for Truth. Tui did do every remaining person in Anzacs a huge favour, because as she rightfully points out, she would have been well within her rights to kick whomever she wanted out of the guild and leave them with diddly squat.
I laughed and laughed and laughed when I heard this. I wish we kept the name.
By leaving them with the guild I gave them every opportunity to succeed. They had an established raid team, an established guild and all they needed to do was embrace the new content.
Quoted for Truth.
Agreed 100%. However spending upwards of half our raid week running back in ghost form due to people under performing is also not my (and a lot of others) idea of fun. I find them "equally" repellent.
I would take exception to anyone at all stating it was Tui's fault the guild broke up. I reiterate, the guild broke up due to a lack of desire to attempt to recruit people at the level the 6 remaining raiders were playing at. There were 10 bodies that we could have pulled in to start raiding. However as my recent run with Demonic Kings will represent, I (and I am assuming the rest), had absolutely 100% no desire what so ever to carry 4 other people through wiping on NORMAL Elegon. I would also like to reiterate that as far as I am aware, the vast majority of Anzacs raid team are now BETTER OFF. I just feel sorry for Cekaz :(
This takes balls. /pat
Draco's entire post basically sums up most non-raiders opinion of the situation and really worth reading for a look outside of the raiders & officers thoughts. I too believe Tui really cared about Anzacs, the guild and all the members in it. I also don't believe she ever stopped. Perhaps this is the core issue here, Tui's leadership was great for those who didn't care about progression. Anyone who actually cared or had been in a guild that actually cared about progression soon found issue.
I tryed! Believe it or not, so far I have spent over two hours typing away here or verifying facts.
I mentioned this myself, really out of character for you Ispep.
Tui... just cared about the prestige that come with being a guild leader without the hard work that goes along with it. Hard work that others and myself put into it moreso than she ever did. Once the various raid leaders took over she always took more of a backseat approach to many aspects of it.
I have edited this quote to better pick out the key points.
The first paragraph, highlighting various officers level of effort is particularly poignant during the time I began to make suggestions in the guild or running my raid group as I had seen most effective in my 5 years prior experience of being involved in leadership situations within a guild.
During my term as an officer and at times raid leader, I feel as if I struggled the entire time to get either a) the backing I needed or b) the simplest of changes through. Modern ideas like "MS>Used in raid OS>OS", was a particularly telling example of an idea that was ultimately blocked by Tui, Gnip & Raw. None of which actually had any role or contribution to the leadership of the group I was raid leading at the time.
All this simply speaks of dysfunction of leadership and conflicting goals between both leadership and members.
3 Hours & 14 pages worth of backed up conversation. And I wonder why I don't sleep much >.>
Edited by Vrashnar on 2/26/2013 12:09 AM PST
I think we all do. Every single person who has been involved in Anzacs has been heavily emotionally invested in this guild. Tui, Raw, Gnip, Cekaz, Lazz, Tess, Ayssa, Me, Dark and really far too many to name. Anyone who has posted here and many who have since quit or moved to greener pastures. We all care. And it shows :)
I agree with you Vrash. I think I pretty much pointed out what probably other non raiders thought as well. I wasn't a hardcore raider but at one time i was during LK and i think before maybe naxx. since the first day I joined ANZACS I always thought ANZACS was a casual guild, meaning raiding and pvp and other events. but near the end ANZACS looked to be all about raiding and didn't really care about the other people that did pvp or other events. It seemed like all the guild wanted to do was progress as a 10 man. when they happened I started to feel left out but I enjoyed being in the guild when Tui was online. Shortly after Tui left, I felt like an outsider and probably would have been kicked eventually for not really being a raider.
Yeesh Vrash, I think this is the longest post in the history of our server. Either way, I really can't find any issue with all your comments, and post responses. It shows a sane side of yourself I have never seen before O.O!
Hopefully the clouds can some day part, and the birds can sing, and the taurens can moo, and at that point we can raid again, so i can make fun of your pitiful deeps...
Gosh where to start. As usual Vrashnar considers his opinion the only one that matters, and has devoted several pages to telling us what he thinks - however this will have the benefit of discouraging all but the most bored of bystanders.
What I gleaned from it though was that Shock was in the perfect position to judge what happened because he wasn't there and heard about it from Vrash and co - whereas Ispep is totally misinformed because he wasn't there and heard about it from me. Also that Vrashnar has been in (and out of) the guild for 2 years but he knows everything there is to know about who put effort in for the 6 years the guild was in existence prior to my departure.
For some reason he chose to spend money to transfer to join this guild with such a terrible reputation that he'd never heard of it. In the interests of brevity I will just hope readers can imagine the impact Vrashnar had on morale when he joined us - it was this that made me realise he was not officer material and in fact his negativity and bullying behaviour (what he calls being the "chief mischief maker"..) also made him a less than ideal guild member.
One thing he did say though, is that Gnip was integral to the success of the guild. It must be said that this is true - he didn't do the regular things like organise raid groups or recruit or manage the gbank, but he was my rock, my talisman, for all the time he was in the guild, and I wouldn't have lasted as long as I did without him. I trusted him completely which is why his betrayal was so hurtful.
From Shock - I spoke to many of the non-raiding guildies after I left and changed the name, and they all saw the humour in it - it was only temporary. They were more distressed that I had been upset enough to leave, but appreciated that I hadn't embroiled them in a tragic gkick dramafest. When I left ANZACS I intended to complete my 100k hks achieve and then quit playing, but in the interim I joined Undead Legion where I was treated with SO much respect and consideration; it was nice to be treated as an asset rather than a liability and I found myself enjoying WOW again. Was I allowed to quit playing with non-raider guildies or does my entire life revolve around keeping other people happy? Subsequently I met Ispep who was looking for a late night raid group and just happened to have his own lvl 25 guild, and he convinced me we could make a go of raiding, and he was right.
The reason I left rather than kicking the raiders is because I had lost confidence, was very sad and didn't believe I had the energy to start again. My guild, which I started with no ambition except to see end game content at a convenient time for New Zealand, ended up as a very successful, and for a long time, a very happy and respected guild. For some reason people joined and thought they could take my guild and make it their own. I do not understand why they didn't go off and create this wonderful guild that I was preventing them from having - and attract all my raiders to them. After all I was so terrible it is hard to understand why I had them at all.
I wanted ANZACS back so that it could not be used to hurt me anymore. Vrashnar was also correct that real emotion is involved in this thread - I don't think Ispep intended to cause such a response; in fact it appears Ciran is the only person who picked up his intended message, but it does seem that it hit a sore spot.
Thanks Tui :)
I just LOL'ed Maybe like everyone else cus man this is some funny stuff to read all over a guild its like Blah Blah it belongs to him it belongs to her If you leave a guild I assume your leaving it for good and not going to be bringing the past..
You got zero business being here especially when you don't know the details -_-
Rawful here, It won't allow me to use that character to post for some reason.
I joined ANZACS in 2008. Back then, they was barely clearing Karazhan, and 2-3 bosses in Hyjal. They were taking 20-45 minutes between every pull, loot was given out on a whim to the BFFs of the raid leader. I raided with a second team full of members who were only barely even in the guild for a month before they all left. it was Waterwell's guild back then. Tui was GM, Gnip barely existed, and Waterwell (Bradock) pretty much ran it from my point of view. I can't say I was privy to what happened "behind the scenes" back then, but every decision I ever saw made in a raid or otherwise was made by Waterwell, and was honestly pretty !@#$in' lame. So myself and the other 6 people I raided with quit. Most of them went to join Vindictive, I did for a week and got pissed off at the snotnosed kids talking %^-* with their nasally voices and the strange cybersex scandals, and asked to come back to ANZACS.
I only really started to raid with them during Naxxramas in WOTLK. We did all right in there, especially for a 25-man guild on Eitrigg (yeah, remember 25 mans Eitrigg?) but we were far from "top 5." I believe I started tanking and raid leading in Naxx. It was also during this time that, because of my pushing, ANZACS went from spending a full night on trash and spending 30 minutes between every boss pull to actually clearing raids in a reasonable time frame. Solely because of me? Of course not. There are no 1 person raids. But I do know I was a major part in changing ANZACS from a casual, do-whatever-the-!@#$-you-wanna-do-play-beast-mastery-in-raids-cc-every-%^-*in-piece-of-trash-in-the-place-when-cc-had-been-essentially-made-worthless-by-devs-years-ago guild to clearing a damned end-game raid in one or two nights. I also know that until ToC hardmodes, anzacs was #3 on horde on Eitrigg as a 25man, and then once we started to do the hardmodes we lost some key members. Liamotdead, Minwye, Covert and Fendred (who were in and out of the guild on a monthly basis really.) Next was ICC, and again ANZACS was top 5 for a long period of time until we hit Rotface which, for some reason, was a straight vertical wall for us. It took us weeks to down that silly boss, and by the time it was dead we had slipped in the rankings and Vrash had joined.
I'm not going to deny it, I disliked Vrash in the beginning. I was irritated as soon as he joined, because he immediately started to subvert established policies that were in place and immediately started to say negative things about the guild's abilities and leadership. And then, within 3 weeks if I recall and against my pronounced protest, Tui promoted him to an officer.
Pretty good. I think she did it a little bit because he's from New Zealand like her, and she's always felt that ANZACS, even though the very name suggests otherwise, was an American dominated guild. I also think she did it because there were 400+ people in the guild at the time, 40+ raiders, 20 officers and of all of those people, only 3-4 of them did anything besides show up 10 minutes before the raid. Few of them put forth any of the effort required to actually IMPROVE the guild, and Vrash was one that did.
I respect you as a DPS, your opinion as a member, and I respected the effort you put in to guild management even when we disagreed. You had a lot of great ideas, though there were a few that just wouldn't fit in to the guild structure. You honestly put in more real work for the guild in the small amount of time that we were in it together than Gnip did his whole career. I stuck up for you on a regular basis, believe it or not. I partially quit because I was tired of trying to convince Tui that your contributions still outweighed your negativity, when a year before I was trying to convince her that your negativity outweighed your contributions. It's strange how perspective can change over time when the environment has not changed at all.
I love you Gnip, but I'm gonna be honest. I was in the guild for nearly four years and I led it for most of that time, and you never did %^-* as an officer. You showed up to dps, you would offer an opinion on a new policy or rule only when asked, and you would occasionally get pissed at a comment someone made and /gkick them. Other than that, you dpsd (pretty well I must say) and talked about gameboy. Helped to lead the guild? not so much. And this contrast between Gnip and Vrash, along with my perceived domination of the guild and frequent disagreements with the Tui pretty much handed Vrash an officer spot whether he deserved it or not. This is all my opinion, of course. Nobody really knows why anybody else ever does anything.
When I say i led the guild, I mean it. I personally feel that i put more time, effort, thought and gold in to the bank than anybody else, including Gnip, Tui, Vrash, or Cekaz. I researched the fights, decided on and amended each strategy for each fight to accommodate the strengths and weaknesses of the players we had. I didn't do this because I had a huge ego and thought only my way would work, I did it because I WAS THE !@#$IN' ONLY ONE DOIN' IT! I posted and updated the recruitment threads. I was the middle ground between people who weren't getting along.
A lot of you don't realize that a guild still exists and has to operate when you are offline. The actions you take and words you speak have resounding effects that somebody has to deal with long after you log out. Just because you didn't hear about it later, doesn't mean you didn't piss off entire groups of raiders when you told someone they were a %^-* dps. Just because you didn't read or hear the conversation, doesn't mean that guild officers and leaders werent sticking up for you, protecting you and arguing for your continued membership after you made a mistake. And we all make mistakes.
From the time i started raiding with ANZACS to the day I left, the guild was held together by myself and Tui. Every single one of you were on the verge of being gkicked at one point by the Tui or myself and either Tui or I prevented it. Every single one of you in this thread had multiple people complaining to me on a DAILY BASIS about you and people threatening to stop raidng or quit if they had to deal with your !@#$ for another day. And every single time, One of us did our best to hold the %^-* together. I'm sure a ton of people quit the guild, or threatened to, because of me as well. I don't deny it. I know people who have quit the game entirely because of things I said or did to them. Oh well. Such is life.
Checkaz lol, your'e a good guy. Like gnip, you barely existed as an officer. You got that position frankly because you were in the guild for a long time and never raised any fuss (which is easy to do when you never speak or offer any opinion unless it is forced out of you.) To say that you deserve the guild because you "put up with !@#$ for the longest" is silly and you know that it is. You didnt "put up" with anything. You never "handled" anything. You scarcely participated and only spoke when the words were squeezed out of you. Pretty good healer though, despite your... choice of UI and gameplay style.
I of course quit the game long before Tui handed leadership of anzacs over to gnip, cekaz, vrash and ayssa, so I have no real opinion about how things went after that. But from what i hear, including from several people in this thread, gnip and cekaz didnt do !@#$ after i quit either. dragon soul and the MoP raid tiers were the easiest raid tiers in WoW history. this is universally agreed upon. the only other raid even remotely close in easiness was ToC. not only are the bosses easier, but you get geared faster, from more sources due to LFR and the heroic/reputation systems, huge amounts of easily accessible JP and VP, and piles of gold for BoEs... there are huge amounts of well made and proven successful strategies from youtube and other sources, huge amounts of theorycrafting, math and guides about how to play your class. WoW is now easier than ever before, and you made it up to ~5000th in the world as a 10man. congrats.
and then there's the tui. tui is slow to change, slow to adapt to the daily changing requirements of what it takes to be a successful healer in WoW. she is untrusting, rash, and has an unusually short enrage timer. i cant say for sure, but i dont think anybody caused her more stress than i did. gnip had a lot of personal arguements with her, thats true. arguments about their arena teams, taking things from the bank, blah blah... but i seemed to have a heated argument with tui about whether or not someone (often including myself) should remain in the guild on a weekly basis. arguments about the quantities of DKP that a certain boss should reward that would end in us not talking for days.
she is also loyal to an unfathomable extent (loyalty is a quality that unfortunately few seem to value in life these days, especially online), wise, and passionate. she would stand up for what she thought was right, even when every other member of the guild was against her. sometimes she was wrong. sometimes, she wasnt. either way, she deserves respect for following what she thought was right and making the difficult decisions that all of you seem to think you could have made better when, really, most of you probably would have just caved in to your BFF who does slightly higher DPS than you. tui would never do that. thats why she was the guild leader. like it or not, admit it or not, tui defined the culture of the guild. i may have enforced the rules, i may have convinced and forced people to behave, but tui made people WANT to stay.
i am glad that i stayed in the guild as long as i did. i told tui that if she ever quit the guild that i wouldn't play the game any more because all i enjoyed doing was making her guild better and helping her and her friends have fun. funny how that turned out! i still count tui as one of my closest friends on the game and i have only positive things to say about her.
you can all offer your opinions, like you have, about how the guild would have done so much if tui wasnt a raider. maybe, who knows. all we do know is is that tui founded the guild, and 6 years later it was still together and getting better and better (albeit quite slowly.) tui quit the guild, 6 months later and heres an anzacs eulogy on the forums. i personally feel that the guild should be handed to tui because, well, she wants it. she founded it, and like it or not, when people think of the name ANZACS, Tui is the next name that comes to mind. none of you give a damn about the name, or the guild, and to say that the guild is going to continue as even a shadow of what it was after this week is ridiculous. why not give it to her? out of hatred? vindictiveness?
Billy, after 6 years of Mel being your closest and sometimes only friend, it saddens me to see you speak of her in such a way. It shows a shameful lack of grace, depth and maturity. You're better than that.
but all of this meaningless whining. it means nothing. the truth is you all remember the history of this guild in your own way. you all believe, like i believe of myself, that you were the backbone of the guild, even though some of you are merely a blip in the history.
you all need to harden the !@#$ up. congratulations to gnip, cekaz, wolfzorz, (the only actually good dps in the guild since covertmonkey) ayssa, (who i barely know, but i heard you had to take my spot after i left LOL SORRY BRO) vrash (salad fingers- i also heard you got as girlfriend, grats on that thats a major achievement), and the others who were a part of anzacs after i left and drove it (frankly, coasted with it) to finally completing a tier of hardmodes with the dragon soul raid. that is an anzacs first, and an achievement that i never saw when i was leading the guild.
eitrigg was a %^-* server when i joined it, and right now it is at its !@#$tiest. every arguement, quarrel, policy and loot issue, member who we kept inviting top raids when they couldnt %^-*in heal themselves much less the other 9 people assigned to them but we couldnt replace... every one of these issues that caused us all so much stress and caused us all to say all of these mean things about each other. every issue that caused us to lose sleep, and caused us to lose friends... was all caused by eitrigg. it is a tiny server, and the best guild on it is still a !@#$ guild by any real standards. every player that ever joined anzacs would have killed more bosses and made more gold and had more fun if they had simply done it on a different server.
i loved anzacs. it had some truly interesting members im proud to say i fought along with every single one of them. i had a great time, and i have no regrets. except for gemming stamina as long as i did.
the guild did phenomenally well for the hand given to it. there's 53 people online in total on horde side and 25 of them are in an anzacs raid? pretty impressive in my estimation.
anzacs was great. imagine what they would have been on a real server.
i miss all of you.
except ispep. who tha %^-* is ispep?
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