Why Demo should not, and will not be tanks

90 Worgen Warlock
HiJ
9275
03/01/2013 11:41 AMPosted by Noxidus
intentionally
What were the intended strats for Leotheras and Illidan?
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
03/01/2013 11:17 AMPosted by Spirît
Varlth can we just agree that we obviously hate each other for no reason and the account wide thing doesnt show boss kills


Yeah, not gonna lie...I forgot you existed about partway through page 2 of that other thread until you reposted.
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100 Worgen Warlock
12460
diddo
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03/01/2013 09:16 AMPosted by Foamy
Look at deathknights, all 3 of their specs back in wrath could tank and dps


Hasn't blizzard changed that though?
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100 Blood Elf Monk
14415
Allow me to destroy your flawed reasoning:

03/01/2013 07:02 AMPosted by Banewolfz
1) Warlocks wear cloth, the lightest most brittle armor in game.

Monks AND druids (also with a tank spec) wear leather. Leather is barely a notch above cloth. A warlock's dark powers and fel mumbojumbo are supposed to make up for this. We even have a passive called "Fel Armor" which emphasizes this.

Edit: Let's not forget hunters! They wear chain mail which is stronger than the monk/druid's leather. Oh wait, they're straight dps, too. Shamans wear mail as well, and they also lack a tank spec.

Conclusion: Armor type clearly has NOTHING to do with role and thus, your argument is invalid.

2) DA is mainly used in pvp for those under geared to get extra protection. (basically becomes a warrior)

LOL DA isn't used in pvp, unless you're getting tunneled and are out of cooldowns/or otherwise screwed. The real question though is "why are you pvping as demo?"

Anyway, that side, extra threat generation and a taunt aren't exactly pvp tools. No, of course not. If I had to guess, DA was a halfway-completed tanking "form" that didn't meet a deadline. Or it got shot down halfway through development. Hence why it's a glyph, and not an actual spec option. Either way, it's a pve button more than anything else; maybe the devs will complete it in the next expansion, but that's definitely too big of a change for a patch at this point.

3) Class distinction, warlocks are a dps spec. If warlocks get to tank then next mages would want to heal, rouges would want to tank, warriors would want to be healers, ect.

Oh look, this excuse again. Warlocks are also constantly compared to mages; what better way to set them apart than by breaking them out of their old mold? Look at vanilla ret paladins. Was that a dps spec? Not really, it wasn't much of anything. Classes change, classes evolve. It's time for us to evolve.

4) It's one glyph that makes Demo somewhat tankable enough to survive trash mobs.

See #2;

5) It would unbalance pvp locks as no one would use a tanking spec for arena's.

Good thing they'd also have dps specs to choose from! That's like saying "nobody pvps as a warrior because it has a tank spec too. What the !@#$, seriously?

6) Demo's would get a damage reduction it return for more survival perks.

Druids have...1, 2, 3...4 specs! The mechanics are already in place for a 4th spec. Demo could easily be split into both a dps spec and a tanking spec in a future expansion. It's not like demo's identity isn't completely reinvented with every new expansion anyway...right?

8) Our pets would be useless.

Maybe, as part of the spec, our demons go from being permanent summons to temporary summons. 2 min cooldown, pop out your choice of demon for X seconds. The demon takes a portion of damage dealt to you (think old soul link) and all have extra threat generation as a passive. Any threat these demons generate is redirected to us. See, without even much thought, I've offered up a way to turn a mechanic that doesn't make sense (having a pet) into a useful tanking cooldown.

Try to think outside of the existing mechanics--about how something CAN work rather than why it cannot. Remember, the devs can and will change what already exists. Nothing is set in stone--ask the original soul link. Ask affliction's former self-healing. Ask the once-mighty-but-now-declawed doomguard.

9) Doesn't fit the role of Demo, Demo is a warlock who mastered the art of summoning and controlling demons to fight for him. Yes he can turn into one for a limited amount which is for his DPS burst, not to survive a burst.

"The [tanking] demonology warlock is one who has mastered the ability to command demonic power. The warlock has infused himself with fel energies, vastly increasing his own strength and fortitude." Hey wait, didn't a bunch of the blood elves do this kind of %^-* back in BC?

10) If Demo was a tank, they'd be blood dk's 1.2.

Because warlocks use 2-handed melee weapons? And plate? And necromancy?

Death knights are melee fighters themed around undeath and the lich king.

Warlocks are spellcasters themed around demonic power and well...demons.

You'd do well to not confuse your "dark" classes based on the sole fact that they're "dark."
Edited by Aesica on 3/1/2013 1:49 PM PST
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100 Orc Warlock
12940
Yeaaaah the original argument is pretty weak, no offense. You'd probably be better off arguing that peer pressure would destroy your willpower and force you to tank as you cried helplessly and rotated your survival CDs with shaking hands. It's a more popular counterpoint I believe.
Edited by Backslider on 3/1/2013 2:08 PM PST
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90 Undead Warlock
5125
All i know is i'm tired of reading about warlock tanking. Everyone has made their points and arguments 9837439 times by now and it's not getting anyone anywhere, just leave it alone people...let the repetitive arguments continue when blizz decides to throw an actual tank spec in for locks.
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90 Troll Warlock
11750
03/01/2013 07:02 AMPosted by Banewolfz
1) Warlocks wear cloth, the lightest most brittle armor in game.


Look at my armor, now look at yours. Does our armor even look like it's cloth anymore? Has it ever actually looked like cloth to you? If you don't mind, I'll take my 650k hp and zero crit immunity elsewhere.
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90 Undead Warlock
11105
03/01/2013 09:11 AMPosted by Banewolfz
If demo becomes a tank none of those are needed anymore for there defense quality and would just attract agro off constantly as well.

? melees still need to use silences... imp heals, which could help a warlock tank, voidwalker on passive with no autocast suffering means you have a pet that can tank a mbo while you tank the othr 2, etc.... it's not useless to have a demon.

03/01/2013 09:11 AMPosted by Banewolfz
Illidan wasn't a warlock....

I guess I didn't mention, and you don't know of the warlock quest part, where karenthad shares the secrets of illidan's transformation with everyone? i never said he was a warlock, however, he was half demon. something that proved to be extremely resilient.

03/01/2013 09:11 AMPosted by Banewolfz
No I meant if blizzard did revamp Demo to be a tanking spec as they would have lost their damage output. Like if DA was not a glyph but permanently changed.

I agree. No fourth spec.

03/01/2013 09:11 AMPosted by Banewolfz
I've used DA, and warlocks have just as much of a healing factor with Dark Regeneration, life drain, health stone, and death coil.

Not really, since dk's heal and shield at the same time every 10 seconds or so. Warlockscan only shield if they have enough demonic fury, and their heals are more like cds you should pop in an emergency.
Edited by Demonwizard on 3/1/2013 3:47 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
03/01/2013 01:25 PMPosted by Gloninn
Look at deathknights, all 3 of their specs back in wrath could tank and dps


Hasn't blizzard changed that though?


Yeah Blizzard slapped a big old failed experiment on that. I was on WoTLK beta, and DKs were supposed to be Blood DPS, Frost Tanks, and Unholy DPS.

They went with Blood as the new tank spec late WoTLK because every DK went blood to tank. It was Unholy early in WoTLK IIRC.

The reason they changed it is because they were trying to make something really unique with their new class, and it became an absolute balancing nightmare because DKs had to have their threat linked to their DPS in order to get it work properly. If they were low DPS, but high TPS across the board then their DPS would suck.

DKs were pretty fun in early WoTLK, but they kept taking away all the fun stuff. Death from beyond the grave (or whatever it was called) was hilarious and caused a ton of people to hate Unholy because even if you killed him he'd still probably end up killing you. The old raise ally was pretty cool too.
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90 Orc Warlock
10100
That's not what brittle means.
Cloth doesn't make good armour, true, but it's not brittle.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
11460
I found this argument to be incredibly weak.
Out of all the reasons why they shouldnt be tanks, I found none of them here.

On another note

Maybe, as part of the spec, our demons go from being permanent summons to temporary summons. 2 min cooldown, pop out your choice of demon for X seconds. The demon takes a portion of damage dealt to you (think old soul link) and all have extra threat generation as a passive. Any threat these demons generate is redirected to us. See, without even much thought, I've offered up a way to turn a mechanic that doesn't make sense (having a pet) into a useful tanking cooldown.

Try to think outside of the existing mechanics--about how something CAN work rather than why it cannot. Remember, the devs can and will change what already exists. Nothing is set in stone--ask the original soul link. Ask affliction's former self-healing. Ask the once-mighty-but-now-declawed doomguard.


I really find this interesting. More-so due to the "master of demons" role being put in a different light. Using "demons" as TOOLS to execute their masters will, whether it be as shields, healing abilites, whatever.

EDIT: In simpler terms, you're demons would be tanking cooldowns. Or this could even just be another revamp to the demo DPS class in general. Because although what they've done is NICE, I feel as if the warlock class semi-stuck between the mage and hunter role, slap on a scary theme and some minor healing.

I like it, because it moves away from the "demon" being more of a scary hunter pet.

Makes the class unique, which is a change. Alot of people fear change too, which I believe to be the general rule as to why half the people disagree with any and all types of improvisions
Edited by Demise on 3/1/2013 9:09 PM PST
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90 Human Warlock
10390
shaman should be able to tank, you know, with a shield and using frost shock.

they are also wearing mail, best after Plate, and for some reason there is no mail class that tank
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90 Undead Warlock
5925
Just thought I'd drop this video off in here. If a player wants to do something, and they have a guild that backs it, anything is possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAfoqMbHQ0A
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
12465
Posted by Banewolfz

03/01/2013 07:02 AMPosted by Banewolfz
Doesn't fit the role of Demo

Hi Illidan. This actually HAS a lot of lore and planning behind it...


Illidan wasn't a warlock....



Warlocks back in BC when Illidan went demon phase would like to have a word with you.
Edited by Demitriious on 3/3/2013 2:58 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warlock
3890
Illidan is/was a demon hunter, demon hunters embrace demonic energy to destroy demons.

warlocks use demonic energy/foul rituals/strike bargains to control demons, so really the question is how do you destroy demons worse making them slaves or splatting them.

03/01/2013 09:06 PMPosted by Demise
: In simpler terms, you're demons would be tanking cooldowns. Or this could even just be another revamp to the demo DPS class in general. Because although what they've done is NICE, I feel as if the warlock class semi-stuck between the mage and hunter role, slap on a scary theme and some minor healing.
me likey this idea
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90 Human Warlock
2955
1) Warlocks wear cloth, the lightest most brittle armor in game.
2) DA is mainly used in pvp for those under geared to get extra protection. (basically becomes a warrior)
3) Class distinction, warlocks are a dps spec. If warlocks get to tank then next mages would want to heal, rouges would want to tank, warriors would want to be healers, ect.
4) It's one glyph that makes Demo somewhat tankable enough to survive trash mobs.
5) It would unbalance pvp locks as no one would use a tanking spec for arena's.
6) Demo's would get a damage reduction it return for more survival perks.
8) Our pets would be useless.
9) Doesn't fit the role of Demo, Demo is a warlock who mastered the art of summoning and controlling demons to fight for him. Yes he can turn into one for a limited amount which is for his DPS burst, not to survive a burst.
10) If Demo was a tank, they'd be blood dk's 1.2.

1) DA is supposed to compensate for that, just as a druid can tank in leather
2) ... really? really?
3) If worked properly warlock tanking makes sense in demon form, mages healing dont make sense, rogues tanking dont make sense, warrior healing dont make sense, but since warlocks can augment thier own physical form into a demonic form, which is in its nature stronger than a regular being, it is possible
4)/5)/6)/(the !@#$ happen to 7 O.o) Obivously we wont be able to pick it up next patch and start tanking, it would require core mechanics change, but not in a way that would entirely screw up or change warlocks into a different class altogether)
8) Not necessarily, in fact if a pet has good synergy with their master as tanking that could make warlock tanking even more interesting and enjoyable
9) That's the only real valid point you have so far
10) Taco. That's my response. Makes as much sense as the argument
Edited by Xaad on 3/4/2013 8:20 AM PST
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90 Human Warlock
2955
03/03/2013 02:56 PMPosted by Demitriious
Warlocks back in BC when Illidan went demon phase would like to have a word with you.

He's actually not his demon form came as he took part of sargaras's power back in WC3, he effectively gained a lot of a warlock's power, but that was pretty much it he was not one in nature
Edited by Xaad on 3/4/2013 8:16 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
12465
03/04/2013 08:16 AMPosted by Xaad
Warlocks back in BC when Illidan went demon phase would like to have a word with you.

He's actually not his demon form came as he took part of sargaras's power back in WC3, he effectively gained a lot of a warlock's power, but that was pretty much it he was not one in nature


No you don't understand, in the Illidan encounter Warlocks at some point had to tank his DEMON phase. Thus Warlock tanking for an encounter.
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90 Undead Warlock
5355
his entire argument is based on fail. i feel like i got trolled so hard, my face hurts.
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