Frost Mage DPS Issues, feedback appreciated

90 Human Mage
6425
Hey guys,

Just to start I'm not sure if our guild has been logging lately but if they have I will get those into this thread straight way.

Pretty much I levelled this mage first in MoP and thought I may aswell play it and see how it goes. I started as Arcane but have recently gone frost as I enjoy the frost game play more.

However I have noticed a lack of DPS on my behalf and with my guild still progressing through HoF and ToES I know I need to step it up and help them out or there really is no use of me continuing with them as I am only holding them back.

I have followed the Icy Veins DPS guide and optimised equipment from Mr Robot; I am currently in the process of replacing my last few blues with reputation valor items (still working on August Celestials and Shado Pan and Shieldwall) and am hoping this week is the week I finally get a Sha touched weapon from LFR (fingers crossed).

On Stone Guards and Feng in MSV I managed 59k and 52k respectively, compared to the other dps in the group (paladin, lock, another frost mage and monk) who never seem to dip below 60k. I feel this should be much better; again not sure if the lack of a Sha touched weapon is the big difference here (as they all have them, though we are only at most 5 ilvls apart) plus it didn't help today that the wild weather where I live in Australia has been affecting my internet (some very bad timed lag and latency issues).

My single target DPS comprises of Frost Bomb/Frozen Orb off the bat, and then frost bolts untill I hit 3 stacks of the debuff on the boss. I then use procs as they light up and frost bolt as a filler spell, using both Frost Bomb and Frozen Orb as they come off CD. I have just switched to Nether Tempest to try that out for single target. Time Warp is used as called for by the raid and I try to line up my Icy Veins, Intellect Trinket, Intellect Pot and Alter Time when I have 2 fingers of frost and a brain freeze (though trying to use them all as close to coming off CD as possible).

Not sure if this is enough information but I am starting to get frustrated at my DPS in comparison to others in the guild; I really would rather not go back Arcane however perhaps the truth is Mages just aren't my class (I have other classes at 90 or close to 90 so playing something else in the next patch is not an issue).

Pretty much any help that you guys can give or feedback you may have would be majorly appreciated. I know there are many quality players out there and I would love to hear what you have to say.

Thank you all, have a nice day :)
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90 Blood Elf Mage
10440
Honestly I've been over ilvl 490 for so long I don't even remember what good DPS was below that. Its entirely possible 52k is nominal for your gear level. In the future, link a WoL parse with your rotational strategies as they contain valuable information like Invoker's Energy uptimes, how many times you used Alter Time, what your passive proc uptimes are, etc.

The other thing is don't use Nether Tempest, unless you just really like it or something. The big reason "serious" Frost raiders use NT is because of its interactions with Light of the Cosmos, which you don't have. So keep using Frost Bomb. You also didn't mention if you are utilizing your pet's Freeze on cooldown, though I suspect you are if you've done as much research on your class as you've indicated.

Here's the big thing I'm seeing though: it looks like you've got a good handle on your class, but there are 2 glaring issues that atm are probably out of your control but are likely the biggest reasons you're struggling against guildies: you've got a blue trinket and a blue spell blade. If your guildies have upgraded epic weapons, its game over. You haven't got a prayer against them. If they have their BiS trinkets, you're doubly screwed. So best advice: don't trip over your DPS until you have somewhat optimal trinkets and a passable spell blade.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
9865
Like Medivh said the other Frost mage has his Sha weapon. So you're already at a disadvantage.

But here's my spiel if it helps any.

I don't see any World of Logs for the guild Till Next Time on Darkspear so didn't have anything to look at there.

Since you're not blessed with the Light of Cosmos trinket I'd recommend sticking with the reliable Frost Bomb since you can line up a guaranteed BrainFreeze proc for your free Frostfire Bolt during your burst phases. For your Talents I wouldn't bother with Ice Floes. Frost has enough mobile damage with random FoF and Brainfreeze procs that Presence of Mind for an instant Frostbolt is probably preferable.

Get yourself some tasty +300 food from farming. Use your flask of Warm Sun.

Before pull ensure you Evocate to have your damage buff (personally I keep evocating until the tank starts their count down)
Just before the pull use a Jade Serpent potion (this will ensure you can use another one during the fight)
Use Mirrors (so you don't need to worry about threat)
Throw your Frostbomb and Frost Orb
Build three stacks of Frostbolt
You should now have at least 1 FoF and your Brainfreeze proc (if you don't have 2 FoF use Pet Freeze for the 2nd otherwise save Freeze)
Throw another Frostbomb
Use your burst macro (Alter Time, Icy Veins and any on use Trinkets)
Icelance, FFB, Icelance (might get another free FFB if you timed your Frostbomb right)
Burn any additional FoF or Brainfreeze procs you get, if none just fill with a Frostbolt or Frostbomb it its available
Alter time kicks in
Icelance, FFB, Icelance (might get another free FFB if you used Frostbomb recently)

The important thing is to use as many of your procs as fast as possible so you don't waste any that might proc right after

Bind PetAttack with Frostbolt so your Pet is always attacking when you do.

You're now waiting for Alter time and Icy Veins to come off cooldown. Keep an eye on it when you notice them getting close ensure you hold off on using your FrostOrb and Pet Freeze since they have a longer cooldown and you don't want to be waiting on them and delaying another burst phase.

Every time your Evocation buff is about to wear off Evocate again. Do not cast spells or use procs when you don't have this damage buff. It is a huge loss.

In fights with multiple targets always use your Pet Freeze on multiples to ensure you get 2 FoF. If you know you'll have multiples for a burst phase save your Frost Orb for after the burst phase and just use your Pet Freeze to get your 2 FoF procs.

Hope that helps. Without logs not much else I can suggest. Also confer with your fellow guild Frost mage. Find out what they are doing that you might not be.
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90 Human Mage
6425
Honestly I've been over ilvl 490 for so long I don't even remember what good DPS was below that. Its entirely possible 52k is nominal for your gear level. In the future, link a WoL parse with your rotational strategies as they contain valuable information like Invoker's Energy uptimes, how many times you used Alter Time, what your passive proc uptimes are, etc.

The other thing is don't use Nether Tempest, unless you just really like it or something. The big reason "serious" Frost raiders use NT is because of its interactions with Light of the Cosmos, which you don't have. So keep using Frost Bomb. You also didn't mention if you are utilizing your pet's Freeze on cooldown, though I suspect you are if you've done as much research on your class as you've indicated.

Here's the big thing I'm seeing though: it looks like you've got a good handle on your class, but there are 2 glaring issues that atm are probably out of your control but are likely the biggest reasons you're struggling against guildies: you've got a blue trinket and a blue spell blade. If your guildies have upgraded epic weapons, its game over. You haven't got a prayer against them. If they have their BiS trinkets, you're doubly screwed. So best advice: don't trip over your DPS until you have somewhat optimal trinkets and a passable spell blade.


Ah see I obviously haven't done enough research to see that Nether Tempest is to be used with Light of the Cosmos (which yes the other frost mage has).

I have pets freeze binded to my Frostbolt so it goes off whenever its on CD.

I really hope I get that Sha weapon this week and I should finally get my epic trinket from rep (all else failing with LFR loot) this week aswell.

Thanks guys, I'm still working on the logs (guild leader is offline but I am sure they said raids were logged). Has been really helpful so far
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90 Draenei Mage
10355
Well, first thing's first, can we get some logs? Anything any one tells you hear will most likely be speculation, we can give a lot more specific and concrete feedback if we had logs to look at. You definitely seem to have a decent grasp of what your priorities are.

With that in mind, the four most likely culprits for DPS loss are these: Not queuing spells effectively resulting in unnecessary downtime; Not minimizing movement/maximizing damage while on the move; Bad invocation uptime; poor use of procs/CDs.

These are all things you can work on. Like I said, if you provide logs we could tell you if one of these things were an issue, or something else.

Edit: Just saw your next post about your logs. Feel free to ignore me asking for them, and focus on the second paragraph. :P
Edited by Rhaenir on 3/3/2013 10:31 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
6425
Yeah sorry about the logs guys (or the lack thereof).

I was sure our guild logged raids but I can't find them anywhere; in any case this was my first raid day as Frost (however I have been frost for about a week now) so there wouldn't have been alot of data but still it would've helped.

What you guys have said is immensely helpful so thanks heaps for it Medivh, Frygyd and Rhaenir
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100 Blood Elf Mage
9865
Anything to help a fellow Frostie.

If it was your first MoP raid cut yourself some slack. Although LFR's give you a feel for a fight the 10/25N raids are indeed different and it takes a few runs before you may become comfortable with where you need to start out the fight based on where the tank goes, where it is safe to DPS, when during the fight you will need to move to avoid cooldown losses, etc.

Learning the fight should always improve your DPS over time.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
10440
Anything to help a fellow Frostie.

If it was your first MoP raid cut yourself some slack. Although LFR's give you a feel for a fight the 10/25N raids are indeed different and it takes a few runs before you may become comfortable with where you need to start out the fight based on where the tank goes, where it is safe to DPS, when during the fight you will need to move to avoid cooldown losses, etc.

Learning the fight should always improve your DPS over time.


This. I cannot stress how true this is. This is why you have Fire mages claiming they can beat their Arcane specs in 485 gear, because they haven't learned all of the subtle nuances on each fight required of the new spec. This happens with -every- mage spec because we are the most impacted by movement among all DPS classes and getting to the point where you can comfortably minimize the impact this has on DPS uptimes will do more for you DPS than any amount of gear and each spec deals with this differently.
Edited by Medívh on 3/4/2013 2:05 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Mage
5870
Anything to help a fellow Frostie.

If it was your first MoP raid cut yourself some slack. Although LFR's give you a feel for a fight the 10/25N raids are indeed different and it takes a few runs before you may become comfortable with where you need to start out the fight based on where the tank goes, where it is safe to DPS, when during the fight you will need to move to avoid cooldown losses, etc.

Learning the fight should always improve your DPS over time.

+1000000000000 to this.

Experience in the fight itself > Reading some guide on how to play your class. Applies to every mage spec.

Which is why armchair generals on the forums annoy me when they try to give advice or reasoning about a spec they don't play or a fight they haven't even done themselves. The more you do a fight the better you will get at it. When I started raiding I was barely pulling in 50k on stone guard. Now, I can do 95 - 100k+ Granted, my ilvl has improved, but it's more than that. For some reason when I'm new to a fight I'm very tunnel visioned to my own dps and don't really pay attention to what's going on around me or with the boss, which always used to cost me, DPS-wise. For example, throwing out a Frozen Orb as Blade Lord Tayak is about to vanish on Unseen Strike. Or, trying to use a Pet Freeze on him as he's about to Windstep. I had dbm running but I just wasn't paying attention then.

Now, with fights I'm used to, I can almost always accurately predict what will happen on certain phases of the fight and prepare/react accordingly, so I don't lose time and DPS.

This is actually the same reason why if you're experienced with one spec, you will probably do better dps on that spec than if you play a spec that does more damage based on raid bots or world of logs, etc. For example, Arcane will blow Frost out of the water when it comes to dps, but Arcane is more mana management intensive & and more movement conscious than Frost is. You could swap specs and do better on a scarecrow since any guide will give you the rotation you need to know, but come time to go on a real raid, you could be putting out lower numbers than you do as Frost.

Also, mages are gear dependent. If someone has a Sha touched weapon and you don't even have an epic weapon, it's over. No matter how meticulous you are with your rotation, and no matter how much they slack, they will probably pull ahead. The difference in spell power is just too huge.
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